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Re: Statement of Bishop Agathangel

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  • Archpriest David Moser
    ... I m not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the IV All Diaspora
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
      <singingmountains@...> wrote:

      > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
      ...
      > Even as
      > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
      > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
      > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.

      I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
      would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
      IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
      complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
      Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
      Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
      submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
      Council of Bishops."

      News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
      our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
      we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
      the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
      Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
      as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
      Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
      interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
      clerymen or laymen might try to imply).

      Archpr. David Moser
      St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
    • P.G. Sheldon
      As was in the case of the proceedings at the All-Diaspora Council, this post betrays a position that is both one-sided and blind-sided. Archpriest David
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
        As was in the case of the proceedings at the All-Diaspora Council,
        this post betrays a position that is both one-sided and blind-sided.
        Archpriest David writes: "I trust our Metropolitan and our Council of
        Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
        as true", which, of course, is an exceedingly easy thing to say -
        because it is supposed to go without saying . What is much harder to
        admit is the incontrovertible fact that there is no unanimity among
        the bishops, with several more or less strongly opposing several
        others, and still others finding themselves in between. Moreover,
        their positions have zigzagged several times in the past years and is
        far from settled even now - which is why, as Bp. Agathangel clearly
        states in his letter to the flock, no agreement could be reached at
        the hierarchical council as to the Act of Canonical Communion - a key
        document, for the adoption of which the Moscow chancery (of the MP
        Office of External Church Relations) was pressing so indomitably.
        The sad fact is that we are going through a wary period of
        great uncertainty and tumult. The surface has not been properly primed
        or even scraped - little use to start painting it rosy.

        P.G. Sheldon



        On 05/06/06, Archpriest David Moser <moserd@...> wrote:
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
        > <singingmountains@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
        > ...
        > > Even as
        > > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
        > > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
        > > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
        >
        > I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
        > would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
        > IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
        > complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
        > Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
        > Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
        > submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
        > Council of Bishops."
        >
        > News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
        > our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
        > we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
        > the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
        > Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
        > as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
        > Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
        > interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
        > clerymen or laymen might try to imply).
        >
        > Archpr. David Moser
        > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • proto@net2000.com.au
        Dear P. G. Sheldon, The fact is that Bishop Agafangel did not agree with the consensus of the All Diaspora Council or the Bishops Council. He was given the
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
          Dear P. G. Sheldon,
          The fact is that Bishop Agafangel did not agree with the consensus of the All
          Diaspora Council or the Bishops Council. He was given the opportunity to
          either sign together with the rest of the bishops or declare himself to be
          outside the Church Abroad. The bishop decided to sign.
          You state that we are in a period of great uncertainty. As a member of the All
          Diaspora Council I dispute your assessment and believe that after the past
          thirty years or being guided by the Old Calendar Greeks and then by the run
          away clergy of Russia, we have finally decided on our own path, which leads us
          into a period of great certainly as to what the majority of the Russian Church
          Abroad wants.
          In Christ,
          Fr Michael

          Quoting "P.G. Sheldon" <pg.sheldon@...>:

          > As was in the case of the proceedings at the All-Diaspora Council,
          > this post betrays a position that is both one-sided and blind-sided.
          > Archpriest David writes: "I trust our Metropolitan and our Council of
          > Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
          > as true", which, of course, is an exceedingly easy thing to say -
          > because it is supposed to go without saying . What is much harder to
          > admit is the incontrovertible fact that there is no unanimity among
          > the bishops, with several more or less strongly opposing several
          > others, and still others finding themselves in between. Moreover,
          > their positions have zigzagged several times in the past years and is
          > far from settled even now - which is why, as Bp. Agathangel clearly
          > states in his letter to the flock, no agreement could be reached at
          > the hierarchical council as to the Act of Canonical Communion - a key
          > document, for the adoption of which the Moscow chancery (of the MP
          > Office of External Church Relations) was pressing so indomitably.
          > The sad fact is that we are going through a wary period of
          > great uncertainty and tumult. The surface has not been properly primed
          > or even scraped - little use to start painting it rosy.
          >
          > P.G. Sheldon
          >
          >
          >
          > On 05/06/06, Archpriest David Moser <moserd@...> wrote:
          > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
          > > <singingmountains@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
          > > ...
          > > > Even as
          > > > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
          > > > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
          > > > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
          > >
          > > I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
          > > would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
          > > IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
          > > complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
          > > Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
          > > Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
          > > submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
          > > Council of Bishops."
          > >
          > > News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
          > > our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
          > > we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
          > > the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
          > > Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
          > > as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
          > > Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
          > > interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
          > > clerymen or laymen might try to imply).
          > >
          > > Archpr. David Moser
          > > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Gilbert Gamboa
          I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone please send me a copy or a link... in Christ, a wretched sinner
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
            I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone please send me a copy or a link...
            in Christ,
            a wretched sinner


            __________________________________________________
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Fr. Gregory Williams
            I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone please send me a copy or a link... You will find it on the SJKP website. Also
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
              I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone
              please send me a copy or a link...

              You will find it on the SJKP website. Also included in a booklet with his
              life & service. Search for ³Spyridon².


              In Christ Jesus,
              Fr. Gregory Williams

              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
              The Saint John of Kronstadt Press
              The Haitian Orthodox Mission
              The Orthodox Church of the Annunciation/Agape Community
              1180 Orthodox Way
              Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

              Catalog of books & recordings: www.sjkp.org
              Information on the Haitian Mission: www.orthodoxhaiti.org
              Information on Church of the Annunciation: www.annunciation.us

              Phone: (615) 536-5239
              FAX: (615) 536-5945
              E-mail: frgregory@...





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • myhrr101
              ... impression that ROCOR fully subscribed to the concept of a hierarchical Church and not just me, interfax reported this as The ROCOR would be independent
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
                > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@>
                wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > P.S. Until Bishop Agathangel's letter I was under the distinct
                impression that ROCOR fully subscribed to the concept of
                a "hierarchical" Church and not just me, interfax reported this
                as "The ROCOR would be independent in pastoral, administrative,
                economic, property, and civil matters. The Council of Bishops would
                be vested with the supreme authority within the ROCOR."
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Is this the official ROCOR position?
                > > >

                >
                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                > <moserd@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Not only is it the official ROCOR position, it is the official
                > > position of the MP. ROCOR will have complete autonomy with some
                very restricted exceptions (the confirmation of the election of the
                First Hierarch and of the election of new bishops and the MP as a
                court of appeal beyond the diocesan court and the synodal court and
                the full sobor only for some very specific situations) The
                confirmation of the elections of the Metropolitan and new bishops
                only makes sense (and is required by canon law) because those
                bishops will be members of the sobor of the one Russian Orthodox
                Church (but there will be no MP bishops on the sobor of ROCOR). In
                all other matters the Sobor of bishops of ROCOR will have complete
                authority.
                > >
                > > Archpr. David Moser
                > > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                > >
                >


                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
                <singingmountains@...> wrote:

                > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. It is
                done all of the time. For example, while Interfax is quoted above
                to say exactly what opponents of reunification *at this time* would
                like to hear, so it has with other Russian Federation influenced
                media outlets quoted the Moscow Patriarchate as warning the ROCOR
                that it had better hurry up and unite with the MP, or else all
                Russianness (sic) would be lost. At the same time, the message to
                the ROCOR hierarchy was about how the church in Russia needed the
                ROCOR so much. How could the church in Russia need a church body
                which was losing its Russianness?
                >
                > And if the ROCOR were not somehow guided or governed by the MP, how
                then would the ROCOR regain the Russianness of its authority?
                >
                > Never mind the answer to that, one can see inconsistent
                representations toward Russian audiences versus ROCOR audiences on
                the meaning and implications of the topic of the SOBOR 2006. Even as
                Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
                the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
                by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
                >
                > The same manner of intention concealment by contradiction was
                serially used by the USSR, and present day isomorphs do not put those
                distrusting very recent contradictory words and conduct from the MP
                out of the fold of rational sheep.
                >


                Yes, baa humbug...

                In its Statutes the Moscow Patriarch Russian Church claims that the
                term "Moscow Patriarchate" is synonymous with "Russian Orthodox",
                implying it claims to be any and all calling themselves Russian
                Orthodox, perhaps this is what they mean by "Russianess"?

                Since the talks on union began the MP has stopped claiming ROCOR
                property, but it continues to claim the property of other Russian
                Orthodox who have chosen to remain separate:
                http://www.dioceseinfo.org/HISTORICAL_BACKGROUND/Moscow/property.html



                I can't see anything in the Statutes to support ROCOR's claim "The
                Council of Bishops would be vested with the supreme authority within
                the ROCOR."

                http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/15.aspx

                "2. The Self-governing Churches, Exarchates, Dioceses, Synodal
                departments, Deaneries, Parishes, Monasteries, Brotherhoods,
                Sisterhoods, Theological educational institutions, Missions,
                Representations and Church representations (hereinafter
                called `canonical units'), which constitute the Russian Orthodox
                Church, canonically comprise the Moscow Patriarchate.

                `The Moscow Patriarchate' is another official name of the Russian
                Orthodox Church.


                7. The supreme bodies of the church authority and governance shall
                be the Local Council, the Bishops' Council and the Holy Synod headed
                by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia."



                ROCOR becomes a "canonical unit" and the supreme authority in it is
                all of 7 with the Bishop's Council the final court of appeal in any
                dispute.


                "VIII. The Self-governing Churches


                2. The decision on the establishment or dissolution of the Self-
                governing Church and on the definition of its territorial boundaries
                shall be taken by the Bishops' Council.

                3. The Council and the Synod headed by the Primate of the Self-
                governing Church in the rank of Metropolitan or Archbishop, shall be
                the bodies of the church authority and governance of the Self-
                governing Church.

                4. The Primate of the Self-governing Church shall be elected by the
                Council from among the candidates approved by the Patriarch of
                Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod.







                Myrrh
              • Archpriest David Moser
                ... And a Merry Christmas to you Mr Scrooge. Archpr David Moser St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                  > Yes, baa humbug...

                  And a Merry Christmas to you Mr Scrooge.

                  Archpr David Moser
                  St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                • myhrr101
                  ... Can those who have nothing to learn from the ghosts of Christmasses past have any inkling of the ghosts of Christmasses future? Those who cannot remember
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                    <moserd@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > > Yes, baa humbug...
                    >
                    > And a Merry Christmas to you Mr Scrooge.
                    >
                    > Archpr David Moser
                    > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                    >


                    Can those who have nothing to learn from the ghosts of Christmasses
                    past have any inkling of the ghosts of Christmasses future? "Those
                    who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George
                    Santayana, Life of Reason, 'Reason in Common Sense,' ch. 12 (1905-6).


                    'the church is hierarchical, the supreme authority is the council of
                    bishops, trust us these bishops'

                    Since when has this been Orthodox ecclesiology? Or don't you care?

                    Myrrh
                  • singingmountains
                    ... Dear Rev. Fr. David, Thank you for your response. You and others seem to make concerns that rejoinder not occur at this time in Russia s history, into an
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 15, 2006
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                      <moserd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
                      > <singingmountains@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
                      > ...
                      > > Even as
                      > > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
                      > > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
                      > > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
                      >
                      > I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
                      > would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
                      > IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
                      > complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
                      > Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
                      > Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
                      > submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
                      > Council of Bishops."
                      >
                      > News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
                      > our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
                      > we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
                      > the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
                      > Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
                      > as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
                      > Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
                      > interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
                      > clerymen or laymen might try to imply).
                      >
                      > Archpr. David Moser
                      > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


                      Dear Rev. Fr. David,

                      Thank you for your response. You and others seem to make concerns
                      that rejoinder not occur at this time in Russia's history, into an
                      issue of whether such persons doubt the authority or discernment of
                      our Metropolitan Laurus and our Bishops. I respectfully believe that
                      this closes ears to the flock, and also intimidates the flock into
                      silence even if they have rational input. The lowly must silence
                      themselves before the high and wise, it seems you are saying.

                      What I and others have raised for concern is NOT the issue of the
                      discernment or honesty of our Metropolitan or Bishops in the ROCOR.

                      Rather, most of us have pointed to the repetitive contradictions and
                      dishonesty of certain Russian Federation (RF) media organizations
                      under RF control and what it means that they have so strongly
                      supported reunification now (if not yesterday) while forwarding some
                      non-spiritual arguments for it (loss of Russianness, for example).
                      Truly, many of the in-country Russian media have not been bona fide
                      news organizations since the early 1990s. They have instead been
                      issuers of the message of central authority from the Kremlin: both
                      central governing and church authority. This says something about the
                      agency, organization and propaganda of the RF and the MP as
                      semi-hidden partners in this effort.

                      And this partnership exists at a time of regression towards an
                      authoritarian state in Russia that puts controlling the church for
                      political clout above actually supporting the spiritual growth in
                      Russian society and letting the rest follow, i.e. "Seek ye first . .
                      ." Understand: if Caesar renders unto the church, the Church will be
                      indebted to Caeasar. Perhaps more on this later.

                      There are very real reasons right now, to include the rise of both
                      communist and fascist sympathies in Russia, not to throw the power of
                      the One Russian Church into drive just yet. Some delicate work is yet
                      to be done regarding hearts and minds before becoming joined to those
                      in authority who have presided over this current passion-complex not
                      rooted in God.

                      We could discuss those problems applicable to our home too, but that's
                      another discussion.

                      Respectfully,
                      Michael Woodson
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