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Re: Statement of Bishop Agathangel

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  • singingmountains
    ... Good morning. One can state anything as their position. It is done all of the time. For example, while Interfax is quoted above to say exactly what
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 4, 2006
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
      <moserd@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > P.S. Until Bishop Agathangel's letter I was under the distinct
      > > impression that ROCOR fully subscribed to the concept of
      > > a "hierarchical" Church and not just me, interfax reported this
      > > as "The ROCOR would be independent in pastoral, administrative,
      > > economic, property, and civil matters. The Council of Bishops would
      > > be vested with the supreme authority within the ROCOR."
      > >
      > >
      > > Is this the official ROCOR position?
      > >
      >
      > Not only is it the official ROCOR position, it is the official
      > position of the MP. ROCOR will have complete autonomy with some very
      > restricted exceptions (the confirmation of the election of the First
      > Hierarch and of the election of new bishops and the MP as a court of
      > appeal beyond the diocesan court and the synodal court and the full
      > sobor only for some very specific situations) The confirmation of the
      > elections of the Metropolitan and new bishops only makes sense (and is
      > required by canon law) because those bishops will be members of the
      > sobor of the one Russian Orthodox Church (but there will be no MP
      > bishops on the sobor of ROCOR). In all other matters the Sobor of
      > bishops of ROCOR will have complete authority.
      >
      > Archpr. David Moser
      > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
      >

      Good morning. One can state anything as their position. It is done
      all of the time. For example, while Interfax is quoted above to say
      exactly what opponents of reunification *at this time* would like to
      hear, so it has with other Russian Federation influenced media outlets
      quoted the Moscow Patriarchate as warning the ROCOR that it had better
      hurry up and unite with the MP, or else all Russianness (sic) would be
      lost. At the same time, the message to the ROCOR hierarchy was about
      how the church in Russia needed the ROCOR so much. How could the
      church in Russia need a church body which was losing its Russianness?
      And if the ROCOR were not somehow guided or governed by the MP, how
      then would the ROCOR regain the Russianness of its authority?

      Never mind the answer to that, one can see inconsistent
      representations toward Russian audiences versus ROCOR audiences on
      the meaning and implications of the topic of the SOBOR 2006. Even as
      Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
      the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
      by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.

      The same manner of intention concealment by contradiction was serially
      used by the USSR, and present day isomorphs do not put those
      distrusting very recent contradictory words and conduct from the MP
      out of the fold of rational sheep.
    • Archpriest David Moser
      ... I m not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the IV All Diaspora
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
        <singingmountains@...> wrote:

        > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
        ...
        > Even as
        > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
        > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
        > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.

        I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
        would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
        IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
        complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
        Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
        Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
        submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
        Council of Bishops."

        News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
        our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
        we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
        the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
        Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
        as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
        Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
        interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
        clerymen or laymen might try to imply).

        Archpr. David Moser
        St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
      • P.G. Sheldon
        As was in the case of the proceedings at the All-Diaspora Council, this post betrays a position that is both one-sided and blind-sided. Archpriest David
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
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          As was in the case of the proceedings at the All-Diaspora Council,
          this post betrays a position that is both one-sided and blind-sided.
          Archpriest David writes: "I trust our Metropolitan and our Council of
          Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
          as true", which, of course, is an exceedingly easy thing to say -
          because it is supposed to go without saying . What is much harder to
          admit is the incontrovertible fact that there is no unanimity among
          the bishops, with several more or less strongly opposing several
          others, and still others finding themselves in between. Moreover,
          their positions have zigzagged several times in the past years and is
          far from settled even now - which is why, as Bp. Agathangel clearly
          states in his letter to the flock, no agreement could be reached at
          the hierarchical council as to the Act of Canonical Communion - a key
          document, for the adoption of which the Moscow chancery (of the MP
          Office of External Church Relations) was pressing so indomitably.
          The sad fact is that we are going through a wary period of
          great uncertainty and tumult. The surface has not been properly primed
          or even scraped - little use to start painting it rosy.

          P.G. Sheldon



          On 05/06/06, Archpriest David Moser <moserd@...> wrote:
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
          > <singingmountains@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
          > ...
          > > Even as
          > > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
          > > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
          > > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
          >
          > I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
          > would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
          > IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
          > complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
          > Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
          > Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
          > submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
          > Council of Bishops."
          >
          > News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
          > our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
          > we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
          > the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
          > Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
          > as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
          > Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
          > interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
          > clerymen or laymen might try to imply).
          >
          > Archpr. David Moser
          > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • proto@net2000.com.au
          Dear P. G. Sheldon, The fact is that Bishop Agafangel did not agree with the consensus of the All Diaspora Council or the Bishops Council. He was given the
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
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            Dear P. G. Sheldon,
            The fact is that Bishop Agafangel did not agree with the consensus of the All
            Diaspora Council or the Bishops Council. He was given the opportunity to
            either sign together with the rest of the bishops or declare himself to be
            outside the Church Abroad. The bishop decided to sign.
            You state that we are in a period of great uncertainty. As a member of the All
            Diaspora Council I dispute your assessment and believe that after the past
            thirty years or being guided by the Old Calendar Greeks and then by the run
            away clergy of Russia, we have finally decided on our own path, which leads us
            into a period of great certainly as to what the majority of the Russian Church
            Abroad wants.
            In Christ,
            Fr Michael

            Quoting "P.G. Sheldon" <pg.sheldon@...>:

            > As was in the case of the proceedings at the All-Diaspora Council,
            > this post betrays a position that is both one-sided and blind-sided.
            > Archpriest David writes: "I trust our Metropolitan and our Council of
            > Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
            > as true", which, of course, is an exceedingly easy thing to say -
            > because it is supposed to go without saying . What is much harder to
            > admit is the incontrovertible fact that there is no unanimity among
            > the bishops, with several more or less strongly opposing several
            > others, and still others finding themselves in between. Moreover,
            > their positions have zigzagged several times in the past years and is
            > far from settled even now - which is why, as Bp. Agathangel clearly
            > states in his letter to the flock, no agreement could be reached at
            > the hierarchical council as to the Act of Canonical Communion - a key
            > document, for the adoption of which the Moscow chancery (of the MP
            > Office of External Church Relations) was pressing so indomitably.
            > The sad fact is that we are going through a wary period of
            > great uncertainty and tumult. The surface has not been properly primed
            > or even scraped - little use to start painting it rosy.
            >
            > P.G. Sheldon
            >
            >
            >
            > On 05/06/06, Archpriest David Moser <moserd@...> wrote:
            > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
            > > <singingmountains@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
            > > ...
            > > > Even as
            > > > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
            > > > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
            > > > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
            > >
            > > I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
            > > would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
            > > IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
            > > complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
            > > Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
            > > Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
            > > submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
            > > Council of Bishops."
            > >
            > > News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
            > > our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
            > > we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
            > > the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
            > > Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
            > > as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
            > > Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
            > > interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
            > > clerymen or laymen might try to imply).
            > >
            > > Archpr. David Moser
            > > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Gilbert Gamboa
            I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone please send me a copy or a link... in Christ, a wretched sinner
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 5, 2006
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              I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone please send me a copy or a link...
              in Christ,
              a wretched sinner


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr. Gregory Williams
              I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone please send me a copy or a link... You will find it on the SJKP website. Also
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
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                I am looking for Akathist to St.Spyridon and cant locate one, can someone
                please send me a copy or a link...

                You will find it on the SJKP website. Also included in a booklet with his
                life & service. Search for ³Spyridon².


                In Christ Jesus,
                Fr. Gregory Williams

                * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                The Saint John of Kronstadt Press
                The Haitian Orthodox Mission
                The Orthodox Church of the Annunciation/Agape Community
                1180 Orthodox Way
                Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

                Catalog of books & recordings: www.sjkp.org
                Information on the Haitian Mission: www.orthodoxhaiti.org
                Information on Church of the Annunciation: www.annunciation.us

                Phone: (615) 536-5239
                FAX: (615) 536-5945
                E-mail: frgregory@...





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • myhrr101
                ... impression that ROCOR fully subscribed to the concept of a hierarchical Church and not just me, interfax reported this as The ROCOR would be independent
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
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                  > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@>
                  wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > P.S. Until Bishop Agathangel's letter I was under the distinct
                  impression that ROCOR fully subscribed to the concept of
                  a "hierarchical" Church and not just me, interfax reported this
                  as "The ROCOR would be independent in pastoral, administrative,
                  economic, property, and civil matters. The Council of Bishops would
                  be vested with the supreme authority within the ROCOR."
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Is this the official ROCOR position?
                  > > >

                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                  > <moserd@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Not only is it the official ROCOR position, it is the official
                  > > position of the MP. ROCOR will have complete autonomy with some
                  very restricted exceptions (the confirmation of the election of the
                  First Hierarch and of the election of new bishops and the MP as a
                  court of appeal beyond the diocesan court and the synodal court and
                  the full sobor only for some very specific situations) The
                  confirmation of the elections of the Metropolitan and new bishops
                  only makes sense (and is required by canon law) because those
                  bishops will be members of the sobor of the one Russian Orthodox
                  Church (but there will be no MP bishops on the sobor of ROCOR). In
                  all other matters the Sobor of bishops of ROCOR will have complete
                  authority.
                  > >
                  > > Archpr. David Moser
                  > > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                  > >
                  >


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
                  <singingmountains@...> wrote:

                  > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. It is
                  done all of the time. For example, while Interfax is quoted above
                  to say exactly what opponents of reunification *at this time* would
                  like to hear, so it has with other Russian Federation influenced
                  media outlets quoted the Moscow Patriarchate as warning the ROCOR
                  that it had better hurry up and unite with the MP, or else all
                  Russianness (sic) would be lost. At the same time, the message to
                  the ROCOR hierarchy was about how the church in Russia needed the
                  ROCOR so much. How could the church in Russia need a church body
                  which was losing its Russianness?
                  >
                  > And if the ROCOR were not somehow guided or governed by the MP, how
                  then would the ROCOR regain the Russianness of its authority?
                  >
                  > Never mind the answer to that, one can see inconsistent
                  representations toward Russian audiences versus ROCOR audiences on
                  the meaning and implications of the topic of the SOBOR 2006. Even as
                  Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
                  the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
                  by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
                  >
                  > The same manner of intention concealment by contradiction was
                  serially used by the USSR, and present day isomorphs do not put those
                  distrusting very recent contradictory words and conduct from the MP
                  out of the fold of rational sheep.
                  >


                  Yes, baa humbug...

                  In its Statutes the Moscow Patriarch Russian Church claims that the
                  term "Moscow Patriarchate" is synonymous with "Russian Orthodox",
                  implying it claims to be any and all calling themselves Russian
                  Orthodox, perhaps this is what they mean by "Russianess"?

                  Since the talks on union began the MP has stopped claiming ROCOR
                  property, but it continues to claim the property of other Russian
                  Orthodox who have chosen to remain separate:
                  http://www.dioceseinfo.org/HISTORICAL_BACKGROUND/Moscow/property.html



                  I can't see anything in the Statutes to support ROCOR's claim "The
                  Council of Bishops would be vested with the supreme authority within
                  the ROCOR."

                  http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/15.aspx

                  "2. The Self-governing Churches, Exarchates, Dioceses, Synodal
                  departments, Deaneries, Parishes, Monasteries, Brotherhoods,
                  Sisterhoods, Theological educational institutions, Missions,
                  Representations and Church representations (hereinafter
                  called `canonical units'), which constitute the Russian Orthodox
                  Church, canonically comprise the Moscow Patriarchate.

                  `The Moscow Patriarchate' is another official name of the Russian
                  Orthodox Church.


                  7. The supreme bodies of the church authority and governance shall
                  be the Local Council, the Bishops' Council and the Holy Synod headed
                  by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia."



                  ROCOR becomes a "canonical unit" and the supreme authority in it is
                  all of 7 with the Bishop's Council the final court of appeal in any
                  dispute.


                  "VIII. The Self-governing Churches


                  2. The decision on the establishment or dissolution of the Self-
                  governing Church and on the definition of its territorial boundaries
                  shall be taken by the Bishops' Council.

                  3. The Council and the Synod headed by the Primate of the Self-
                  governing Church in the rank of Metropolitan or Archbishop, shall be
                  the bodies of the church authority and governance of the Self-
                  governing Church.

                  4. The Primate of the Self-governing Church shall be elected by the
                  Council from among the candidates approved by the Patriarch of
                  Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod.







                  Myrrh
                • Archpriest David Moser
                  ... And a Merry Christmas to you Mr Scrooge. Archpr David Moser St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
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                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                    > Yes, baa humbug...

                    And a Merry Christmas to you Mr Scrooge.

                    Archpr David Moser
                    St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                  • myhrr101
                    ... Can those who have nothing to learn from the ghosts of Christmasses past have any inkling of the ghosts of Christmasses future? Those who cannot remember
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 6, 2006
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                      <moserd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > > Yes, baa humbug...
                      >
                      > And a Merry Christmas to you Mr Scrooge.
                      >
                      > Archpr David Moser
                      > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                      >


                      Can those who have nothing to learn from the ghosts of Christmasses
                      past have any inkling of the ghosts of Christmasses future? "Those
                      who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George
                      Santayana, Life of Reason, 'Reason in Common Sense,' ch. 12 (1905-6).


                      'the church is hierarchical, the supreme authority is the council of
                      bishops, trust us these bishops'

                      Since when has this been Orthodox ecclesiology? Or don't you care?

                      Myrrh
                    • singingmountains
                      ... Dear Rev. Fr. David, Thank you for your response. You and others seem to make concerns that rejoinder not occur at this time in Russia s history, into an
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 15, 2006
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                        <moserd@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "singingmountains"
                        > <singingmountains@> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Good morning. One can state anything as their position. ...
                        > ...
                        > > Even as
                        > > Metropolitan Laurus had announced in Australia earlier this year that
                        > > the one chalice would not mean administrative absorption of the ROCOR
                        > > by the MP, more than one Russian news outlet indicated otherwise.
                        >
                        > I'm not real sure what the point of this post was, but in response I
                        > would like to quote from the opening section of the Resolution of the
                        > IV All Diaspora Council, "in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with
                        > complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First
                        > Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of
                        > Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall
                        > submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
                        > Council of Bishops."
                        >
                        > News sources say all kinds of things and one can quote (or misquote)
                        > our hierarchs to give all kinds of impressions, however, in the end,
                        > we do have to choose who we will believe and who we will trust. With
                        > the other members of the Council, I trust our Metropolitan and our
                        > Council of Bishops above all others and will accept what they declare
                        > as true. Thus the "official position" of ROCOR, as declared by our
                        > Metropolitan and the hierarchal Sobor, is indeed, the true meaning and
                        > interpretation of events (despite what news sources and individual
                        > clerymen or laymen might try to imply).
                        >
                        > Archpr. David Moser
                        > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


                        Dear Rev. Fr. David,

                        Thank you for your response. You and others seem to make concerns
                        that rejoinder not occur at this time in Russia's history, into an
                        issue of whether such persons doubt the authority or discernment of
                        our Metropolitan Laurus and our Bishops. I respectfully believe that
                        this closes ears to the flock, and also intimidates the flock into
                        silence even if they have rational input. The lowly must silence
                        themselves before the high and wise, it seems you are saying.

                        What I and others have raised for concern is NOT the issue of the
                        discernment or honesty of our Metropolitan or Bishops in the ROCOR.

                        Rather, most of us have pointed to the repetitive contradictions and
                        dishonesty of certain Russian Federation (RF) media organizations
                        under RF control and what it means that they have so strongly
                        supported reunification now (if not yesterday) while forwarding some
                        non-spiritual arguments for it (loss of Russianness, for example).
                        Truly, many of the in-country Russian media have not been bona fide
                        news organizations since the early 1990s. They have instead been
                        issuers of the message of central authority from the Kremlin: both
                        central governing and church authority. This says something about the
                        agency, organization and propaganda of the RF and the MP as
                        semi-hidden partners in this effort.

                        And this partnership exists at a time of regression towards an
                        authoritarian state in Russia that puts controlling the church for
                        political clout above actually supporting the spiritual growth in
                        Russian society and letting the rest follow, i.e. "Seek ye first . .
                        ." Understand: if Caesar renders unto the church, the Church will be
                        indebted to Caeasar. Perhaps more on this later.

                        There are very real reasons right now, to include the rise of both
                        communist and fascist sympathies in Russia, not to throw the power of
                        the One Russian Church into drive just yet. Some delicate work is yet
                        to be done regarding hearts and minds before becoming joined to those
                        in authority who have presided over this current passion-complex not
                        rooted in God.

                        We could discuss those problems applicable to our home too, but that's
                        another discussion.

                        Respectfully,
                        Michael Woodson
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