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Re: Former OCA clergy will they be accepted in the Moscow Patriarchate

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  • davidofliverpool
    ... confess you feel that you received It worthily. ... in Russia the priests did not confess the parishioners, but once in a while a Hieremonk from the
    Message 1 of 52 , Jun 3, 2006
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Zinaida K Miller
      <zikonaya@...> wrote:
      > Good for you, when you receive the Holy Communion after you
      confess you feel that you received It worthily.
      > You should read Prof. Kontsevich book on Optina where he writes
      in Russia the priests did not confess the parishioners, but once in
      a while a Hieremonk from the Monastery would come and perform the
      confession. But people did partake without confession.
      > Also, historically he wrote, that Catherine the Great introduced
      confession before each communion.
      > You do what makes you feel good. I am talking from experience
      of meeting Serbs, Bulgarians and you, personally, know Brookline
      Greeks very well. New Calendarists Greeks never go to confession.
      > Be at peace, DD. Do what makes you feel good and stop pocking
      fingers at others.
      > DD wrote:
      > On Wed, 31 May 2006 20:37:21 -0700 (PDT), michael nikitin wrote:
      > MN: Subject of confession was discussed already. The
      > and Greeks partake of the Holy Gifts at each Liturgy and they go
      > confession but not very often.
      > DD:
      > FAQ Server: Bulgaria:
      > "Our Guide Lines for Holy Communion
      > Orthodox Christians are expected to take Confession before Holy
      > Communion. Let us prepare ourselves with prayers and fasting from
      > night
      > before."
      > http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~radev/cgi-bin/faqserver.cgi?
      > St. Basil of Ostrog Serbian Orthodox Church: "Preparation [for
      > Communion] includes fasting and confession"
      > Frequency of Confession as regards to Holy Communion is one thing
      > the Russian Church it is the norm to *always* goes to Confession
      > before Communion); but with Brookline, Absolution is given
      *without* a
      > confession of sins. This is an abuse and mockery of confession,
      the purpose
      > of which is to do just that: confess one's sins to Christ through
      > priest.
      > Between infrequent confession and receiving "absolution" without
      > confessing one's sins, with Brookline there would be much chance
      for a
      > person to receive unworthily.... It's aberrations like this that
      > one to the conclusion that it's a moot issue anyway, for how can
      > "receive worthily" when in a schism, and exactly what is it that
      one is
      > receiving?
      > Russians were under the influence of Roman Catholics because many
      > bishops received their education in Roman Catholic seminaries.
      Many things
      > crept into Russian practices and continue to stay. Roman
      > since then changed their practice about communion, confession and
      > Unction, etc...
      > Michael N
      > DD: The old "under the influence of Roman Catholics" red
      herring. You
      > have in no way answered for your incorrect practice of group
      > without confession of sins.
      > --Dimitra Dwelley
      >While showing respect for the sacrament of Holy Communion and the
      fact that the Lord decreed that the defiled should not approach the
      priest in order to receive, we should remember the true nature of
      Christ's mission. This mission was to declare the Father, through
      Himself and to preach forgiveness. His emphasizing on forgiveness,
      was due to the fact that we are all sinners, due to our fallen state.
      Surely anybody who wants to approach for Holy Communion is still a
      sinner and defiled, regardless of a prior sacramental confession.
      While Confession blots out sins committed, it does not take away the
      fact that we are still in need of Christ's healing and grace on a
      more general level. Communion and confession are sacraments for
      healing. To take too much a legalistic approach to it is 'roman
      catholic' in nature, and also remenisant of the pharasies, who set
      up traditions to act as stumbling blocks between man and God.
      A person who leads a sinful life with no regrets, should have a
      change of heart and seek confession before taking Holy Communion.
      The person who feels despair in their sins, needs Holy Communion for
      healing and nearness to God.> David Moore
      > __________________________________________________
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    • myhrr101
      I ve just found this on a chronological list of RCC doctrines: AD 1215 - Auricular confession of sins to a priest, instead of to G-d, is instituted by
      Message 52 of 52 , Jun 27, 2006
        I've just found this on a chronological list of RCC doctrines:

        AD 1215 - Auricular confession of sins to a priest, instead of to
        G-d, is instituted by Innocent III in the Lateran Council

        Will have a look at the council tomorrow, there could be an
        explanation of it.


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...>
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
        > <moserd@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > > There appears a squiggly line running through the history of
        > > > Church in which bunches of bishops decide all kinds of stuff
        > beyond their remit - isn't the insistence of confession before
        > communion one such example? Like the spoon feeding idea.
        > >
        > > I disagree with this premise. No matter to origin of our
        > traditions, they have been adopted by the Church as a recognized
        > part of Tradition. No one condemns the practice of confession
        > before every communion, but neither is it required - it is
        > by the whole Church as a legitimate working out of the Faith. The
        > use of the spoon for giving the mysteries has an even wider
        > acceptance as the "standard practice" although again there are
        > exceptions (the communion of the clergy or the liturgy of St James
        > for two examples). The point is the Church has embraced these
        > practices as true and faithful expressions of Holy Tradition.
        > I find that it is not profitable to try and find excuses to
        > denigrate our tradition by criticizing where it came from (the
        > thing applies to the complaint by some that the Russian Church was
        > somehow tainted or infected with Roman practices born of Roman
        > theology. One could just as easily say that the Byzantine Church,
        > the Ante-Nicene Church in fact, was "tainted" and "infected" with
        > the ideas of classical Greek philosophy and so the writings of
        > > such luminaries as the Cappadocian fathers (Basil the Great,
        > Gregory the Theologian, Gregory Nanzianzen) and St John Chrysostom
        > must be examined by us to makes sure that they are truly
        > Nonsense!
        > >
        > Don't hold back on account of me, I enjoy a good rant, but you've
        > just rubber stamped such accepted usage as papal supremacy so
        > have to excuse me but I reject the premise that the Holy Spirit
        > leads to such truth where 'ignorance' and 'might is right' are
        > included as guiding principles for the Church.
        > One can argue that all canons are uncanonical which break Christ's
        > rule "It shall not be so among you" in their creation. I assume
        > arose out of "sobornost", but for the most part the rules and regs
        > have been imposed from above and certainly there's no intrinsic
        > respect due to any which are contrary to authentic tradition in
        > Tradition, such as the canon which rules against married bishops,
        > to the particular bunch of celibate bishops who devised the rule,
        > matter how long it's been an established practice or how
        > successfully objection is put down by admonition for lack of piety
        > or deflected by accusations that questioning such practices is
        > denigrating the Orthodox Church.
        > But I think you've just cracked the ecumenist's problem in
        > establishing one Church.
        > The Development of Doctrinites are really saying the same thing as
        > the Organic Growthines, it's only ever been a problem of semantics
        > and so of course anything goes as long as it can be enforced or
        > to stick long enough. Well, pass the popcorn, are you sitting
        > comfortably? then let's watch the organic development in the
        > of the Bishops for Supreme Authority in the Universal Church.
        > Does the anarchic fold Christ put in place still exist anywhere?
        > Thank God with us for the bishop who still dares teach that Christ
        > is the supreme authority in the Church.
        > Now, I've read somewhere that the spoon feeding came into general
        > use in the 10th century, but I can't find anything more detailed
        > about it, any ideas where to look? By the time of the Council of
        > Trent communion of one species only for the masses was already
        > established in the West - are these two ideas, spoon feeding and
        > separation of clergy from laity in communion, connected somehow?
        > the minutes of the council there's a long eulogy on the sacred
        > wonder of communing in both species followed by an amusing list of
        > excuses for forbidding full communion to the oiks. I don't know
        > which is sadder, the bishops who contrived this for themselves or
        > the laity I've heard piously defending enthralment to the practice.
        > > But enough of the tirade, on to the question:
        > >
        > > >how does this differ from the other Orthodox
        > > > churches?:
        > > >
        > > > "In the Slavic ritual a Latin-inspired and juridical form of
        > > > personal absolution was introduced by Peter Mogila,
        > of
        > > > Kiev (17th century)."
        > >
        > > The difference lies in the prayers of absolution said by the
        > > priest/confessor over the repentant person. In the Russian
        > tradition the final prayer contains the statement, "and I an
        > unworthy priest through the power given me do forgive and absolve
        > the servant of God..." To some people this formula is too
        > in that it implies that the priest is doing the forgiving instead
        > God - but that would completely ignore the phrase, "through the
        > power given me" which makes it clear that the priest is only
        > as the minister of the sacrament of forgiveness - not its source.
        > Doesn't make it clear at all, the immediate source is the
        > between Orthodox and Latin form of absolution and in the Latin use
        > the immediate source is the priest which is what these
        words "Power
        > given me" say, the personal power of that priest. And in the Latin
        > church there are particular concepts attached to this.
        > For a start this page gives a general idea of the differences;
        > http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Confession
        > It says of the RCC:
        > "Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however
        > pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to
        > God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the
        > Catholic priesthood. Catholics believe God exercises the power of
        > forgiveness by means of the sacrament of reconciliation.
        > The basic form of confession has not changed for centuries,
        > at one time confessions were made publicly. Colloquially speaking,
        > the role of the priest is of a judge and jury; in theological
        > he acts in persona Christi and receives from the Church the power
        > jurisdiction over the penitent. ......
        > Absolution in the Roman rite takes this form:
        > God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of
        > Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit
        > among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the
        > Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from
        > your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
        > Spirit.
        > The essential words, however, are "I absolve you.""
        > It says of the Orthodox:
        > "The Eastern Orthodox sacrament of confession, or repentance,
        > includes prayer to God and confessing ones sins to God, typically
        > the presence of an icon of Jesus Christ and also with a priest
        > nearby to bear witness. The priest will typically add his own
        > prayers, may add counsel or assign some form of penance, and will
        > usually announce God's forgiveness of sins. In Orthodox
        > ecclesiology, the priest is not an intermediary between God and
        > penitent. The confession is to God in the presence of a priest,
        > to a priest in the presence of God."
        > Utterly different from each other, the one based on the premise
        > Christ is absent and the other that Christ is present. What does
        > mean then when the Orthodox use the latin form? How does it affect
        > the users of this service?
        > Myrrh
        > And again, both forms of the sacramental formula - Greek and
        > Russian - are accepted by the whole Church.
        > >
        > > Archpr David Moser
        > > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
        > >
        > If by "whole" Church you mean the Orthodox, why?
        > Myrrh
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