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[orthodox-synod] "Forgiving Yourself" - Christian or... dare I say, Demonic?

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  • UDUT, KENNETH
    Greetings in the Fast! From time to time, on other lists online, I come across a prayer, or advice in which is included forgiving myself . It seems so simple.
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 30, 1999
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      Greetings in the Fast!

      From time to time, on other lists online, I come across a prayer,
      or advice in which is included "forgiving myself".

      It seems so simple. My first reaction is, "Can I do that?" [which
      brings to mind in Scripture the argument over whether a man really
      has the power to forgive sin (which indeed, a man does *not* have
      the power to do so, but the God-man does). The temptation which
      follows is one where I start to think, "Well, if God can forgive
      me, and can forgive others, and, in a sense, I can forgive others
      for personal offenses against me (of course, by forgiving others I
      must have *first* judged them as having committed sin against me),
      then *logically*, it follows that I must be able to forgive
      myself."

      Now, to me, this seems unChristian at the core. It seems demonic
      (to use an unpopular term), not inspired by God but inspired by
      another taking the guise of God.

      We have the ability to discern where we have sinned, but do we have
      the ability to discern where we have truly been God-pleasing? Can
      we then forgive ourselves of the offenses we have committed against
      others (hence, against God, for how we treat our neighbors is
      indicative of how we treat God).

      But I could be totally wrong about this. Perhaps we *can* "forgive
      ourselves". But something just doesn't seem right about that.

      Can somebody with more knowledge about these things help clarify
      this for me and others?


      Thank you so very much!


      In Christ,

      Kenneth
      kenneth.udut@...

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    • Carol Mulligan
      It reminds me of a very popular song, which is sung by every middle-school or high-school chorus, called The Greatest Love in which there is a lyric to the
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 30, 1999
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        It reminds me of a very popular song, which is sung by every middle-school
        or high-school chorus, called "The Greatest Love" in which there is a lyric
        to the effect that the greatest love of all is loving yourself.

        This always struck me as pretty self-indulgent.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: UDUT, KENNETH [mailto:KENNETH.UDUT@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 9:26 AM
        To: orthodox@...; orthodox-synod@egroups.com;
        ortho-praxis@egroups.com; orthodoxia@...
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] "Forgiving Yourself" - Christian or... dare I
        say, Demonic?


        Greetings in the Fast!

        From time to time, on other lists online, I come across a prayer,
        or advice in which is included "forgiving myself".

        It seems so simple. My first reaction is, "Can I do that?" [which
        brings to mind in Scripture the argument over whether a man really
        has the power to forgive sin (which indeed, a man does *not* have
        the power to do so, but the God-man does). The temptation which
        follows is one where I start to think, "Well, if God can forgive
        me, and can forgive others, and, in a sense, I can forgive others
        for personal offenses against me (of course, by forgiving others I
        must have *first* judged them as having committed sin against me),
        then *logically*, it follows that I must be able to forgive
        myself."

        Now, to me, this seems unChristian at the core. It seems demonic
        (to use an unpopular term), not inspired by God but inspired by
        another taking the guise of God.

        We have the ability to discern where we have sinned, but do we have
        the ability to discern where we have truly been God-pleasing? Can
        we then forgive ourselves of the offenses we have committed against
        others (hence, against God, for how we treat our neighbors is
        indicative of how we treat God).

        But I could be totally wrong about this. Perhaps we *can* "forgive
        ourselves". But something just doesn't seem right about that.

        Can somebody with more knowledge about these things help clarify
        this for me and others?


        Thank you so very much!


        In Christ,

        Kenneth
        kenneth.udut@...

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      • LJames6034@aol.com
        Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself. This is the second most important commandment from the Lord. If one cannot love oneself, that, perforce, colors
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 30, 1999
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          "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." This is the second most
          important commandment from the Lord.

          If one cannot love oneself, that, perforce, colors all one's relationships
          with others, including one's view of God, Himself. Hence, some parents have
          been described as "soul killers."

          They are soul killers, because they teach their children by example that the
          child is not loved, is not important, has nothing to offer. This creates a
          certain spiritual "black hole," which can usually not be filled.

          Do not be so dismissive of loving oneself. The Lord saw that love as
          fundament. Reverse what He said, and see: If you do not love yourself,
          that touches how you can/cannot love those around you.


          Father Andrew

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        • Deacon John Whiteford
          ... eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 1, 1999
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            --- LJames6034@... wrote:
            > "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." This is
            > the second most
            > important commandment from the Lord.
            >
            > If one cannot love oneself, that, perforce, colors
            > all one's relationships
            > with others, including one's view of God, Himself.
            > Hence, some parents have
            > been described as "soul killers."

            One the great lines from Jimmy Swaggart I ever heard
            was on this subject. He was talking about those who
            say we must learn to love ourselves, and argued that
            we naturally love ourselves. Even a women who says
            something like "Oh, I am so ugly I hate myself!"
            really loves herself, because as Jimmy pointed out:
            "If she really hated herself, she would be GLAD she
            was ugly!"
            ===
            ********************************************************
            * Deacon John Whiteford IC -|- XC *
            * ----|---- *
            * St. Jonah of Manchuria Orthodox Mission | *
            * Serving the Spring, Woodlands, \| *
            * and Conroe, Texas area. |\ *
            * http://www.orthodox.org/stjonah NI | KA *
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          • David Moser
            ... Perhaps rather than attempting to forgive ourselves, we should rather accept the forgiveness of God. This is not just a trite play on words. What people
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 1, 1999
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              > From time to time, on other lists online, I come across a prayer,
              > or advice in which is included "forgiving myself".

              > Now, to me, this seems unChristian at the core. It seems demonic
              > (to use an unpopular term), not inspired by God but inspired by
              > another taking the guise of God.


              Perhaps rather than attempting to forgive ourselves, we should rather accept the
              forgiveness of God. This is not just a trite play on words. What people often
              refer to when talking about "forgiving yourself" is coming to a realization that
              you need no longer bear the guilt of a particular sin in yourself. The antidote
              is, of course, not forgiving yourself, but rather repenting, seeking God's
              forgiveness (the sacrament of confession) and then accepting that forgiveness
              when He gives it to you. Too often we try to convince God that we are really
              not forgiveable and that even though He says He forgives us, He doesn't really
              mean it. So instead of forgiveing yourself, try to let God forgive you and
              accept what He has done.

              Priest David Moser +++ moserd@...
              St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)

              "Those who are not satisfied with what they have to sustain life but who seek
              for more, make themselves the slaves of passions" - St Anthony the Great


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            • Katerina Kettenhofen
              Or perhaps we dont feel we ve been sufficiently repentant... On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, David Moser wrote: # # # From time to time, on other lists online, I come
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 1, 1999
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                Or perhaps we dont feel we've been sufficiently repentant...

                On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, David Moser wrote:

                #
                #
                #> From time to time, on other lists online, I come across a prayer,
                #> or advice in which is included "forgiving myself".
                #
                #> Now, to me, this seems unChristian at the core. It seems demonic
                #> (to use an unpopular term), not inspired by God but inspired by
                #> another taking the guise of God.
                #
                #
                #Perhaps rather than attempting to forgive ourselves, we should rather accept the
                #forgiveness of God. This is not just a trite play on words. What people often
                #refer to when talking about "forgiving yourself" is coming to a realization that
                #you need no longer bear the guilt of a particular sin in yourself. The antidote
                #is, of course, not forgiving yourself, but rather repenting, seeking God's
                #forgiveness (the sacrament of confession) and then accepting that forgiveness
                #when He gives it to you. Too often we try to convince God that we are really
                #not forgiveable and that even though He says He forgives us, He doesn't really
                #mean it. So instead of forgiveing yourself, try to let God forgive you and
                #accept what He has done.
                #
                #Priest David Moser +++ moserd@...
                #St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                #
                #"Those who are not satisfied with what they have to sustain life but who seek
                #for more, make themselves the slaves of passions" - St Anthony the Great
                #
                #
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                #
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                #
                #
                #


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