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Re: [orthodox-synod] Question about interview with Patriarch Alexy

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  • gene703
    ... this is pure evil for those who still have their eyes open this demon patriarch CAN NOT even talk about it moleben for the end of Communism ? He knows if
    Message 1 of 8 , May 3, 2006
      >> "Declaration" of Metropolitan Sergius - I also spoke about it more than once, during the years when this was a real question for us in Russia, when we, finally, could say aloud what was bothering us. One does not wish to repeat endlessly something already said.

      this is pure evil for those who still have their eyes open
      this demon "patriarch" CAN NOT even talk about it
      moleben for the end of Communism ?
      He knows if he attempts something like this Devil will rip his heart out on the spot
      can't you hear the hissing ? see the forked tongue ?
      are these the words of a Christian hierarch or a devil possessed lawyer ?

      and while I am on the subject, the MP demons must have worked some kind of black magic on the ROCOR Synod, why else would they all change their views so sudently and so radically ? it's like if George Bush all of a sudden started advocating for gay rights, universal health care and a huge tax raises for the upper class


      "Bushunow, Peter" <peter.bushunow@...> wrote:
      Christ is Risen!

      Father John posted an interview with Patriarch Alexy


      QUOTE>"3. What at the present time is the attitude of the Moscow
      Patriarchate to the "Declaration" of Metropolitan Sergius and >>its
      consequences? How do you view church-state relations today?

      >The Russian Orthodox Church spoke out more than once on the subject of
      the Epistle of Metropolitan Sergius of 1927; I also >spoke about it more
      than once, during the years when this was a real question for us in
      Russia, when we, finally, could >>say aloud what was bothering us. One
      does not wish to repeat endlessly something already said. It is enough
      to say: thank >God that the current life of the Church is not guided by
      this coerced document." END OF QUOTE

      Father John has said (several times on this list and in private emails)
      that Patriarch Alexy has publicly repented of Sergianism and has taken
      personal responsibility for the lies and deceptions regarding the state
      Russian Church while it was enslaved (with Metropolitan Sergius'
      approval) under the communist yoke

      However, neither Father John nor Patriarch Alexy cite any church
      services or rite, document, ukaz, formal declaration, report of minutes
      of a meeting or give us any clues as to when, where, and how this
      repentance was performed or witnessed. Reading from the same script as
      Father John, the Patriarch say "One does not wish to repeat endlessly
      something already said."

      Indeed one does repeat the truth endlessly.

      If this "repentance" was true and sincere, it would be public knowledge,
      it would have been quoted in endless homilies, books discussing it would
      have been written. It would be appropriate to have a feast of "Triumph
      over Communism," or at least a thanksgiving Moleben celebrating this
      wonderful event!

      The Patriarch's actions are counter to his words -- he has blessed the
      publication of a book lauding Met. Sergius' actions. A statue is
      erected, a square named in his honor. Met. Sergius is cited as a "hero"
      for "saving the church."

      This remains the real question before us, and before our hierarchs as we
      enter this Sobor -- Are we going to remain in the church of the Holy New
      Martyrs, or are we going to join the church of Met Sergius and his
      heirs?

      Peter


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    • michael nikitin
      There was never any formal repentance which all the bishops had signed and repented in public. Patriarch Alexey II has found a new novel way of repenting for
      Message 2 of 8 , May 3, 2006
        There was never any formal repentance which all the bishops had signed and repented in public.

        Patriarch Alexey II has found a new novel way of repenting for others.
        He asks forgiveness for all the sins committed by those who joined the Soviets. I guess Metr.Sergius can now be glorified since Pat. Alexey II repented for him and Pat. Sergiy now is forgiven.

        What next? Patr.Alexey II repenting for the Roman Catholic Church?

        I just heard a Russian joke in which a priest not having enough time to name all the names at proskomedia, puts all the names in a bag and asks God to forgive all the sins of everyone in the bag.

        The problem with the bishops asking forgiveness is that they would have to admit they went into schism uncanonically. This would render them not a Church and they would have to ask ROCOR forgiveness and step down or at the very least join ROCOR which would mean the Patriarch would have to step down.This is what ROCOR under our previous hierarchs were waiting for , but this did not happen. Instead our bishops are joining the MP and asking forgiveness from them who Archimandrite Constantine called a pseudo-church which was created by the Soviet regime and whom B.Averky called a harlot for praying with everyone.

        State Duma deputy stated ROCOR should unite with our brothers, the MP. I say who wants to join brothers who steal from their family?

        Sad.

        Michael N

        "Bushunow, Peter" <peter.bushunow@...> wrote: Christ is Risen!

        Father John posted an interview with Patriarch Alexy


        QUOTE>"3. What at the present time is the attitude of the Moscow Patriarchate to the "Declaration" of Metropolitan Sergius and >>its consequences? How do you view church-state relations today?

        >The Russian Orthodox Church spoke out more than once on the subject of the Epistle of Metropolitan Sergius of 1927; I also >spoke about it more than once, during the years when this was a real question for us in Russia, when we, finally, could >>say aloud what was bothering us. One does not wish to repeat endlessly something already said. It is enough to say: thank >God that the current life of the Church is not guided by this coerced document."

        Father John has said (several times on this list and in private emails) that Patriarch Alexy has publicly repented of Sergianism and has taken personal responsibility for the lies and deceptions regarding the state Russian Church while it was enslaved (with Metropolitan Sergius' approval) under the communist yoke



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      • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
        ... See the Interview given by Patriarch Alexei II to Izvestia (the largest circulation newspaper in Russia), in July, 1991, which was subsequently reprinted
        Message 3 of 8 , May 3, 2006
          Peter Bushunow wrote:
          >Father John has said (several times on this list and in private emails)
          >that Patriarch Alexy has publicly repented of Sergianism and has taken
          >personal responsibility for the lies and deceptions regarding the state
          >Russian Church while it was enslaved (with Metropolitan Sergius'
          >approval) under the communist yoke
          >
          >However, neither Father John nor Patriarch Alexy cite any church
          >services or rite, document, ukaz, formal declaration, report of minutes
          >of a meeting or give us any clues as to when, where, and how this
          >repentance was performed or witnessed.


          See the Interview given by Patriarch Alexei II to Izvestia (the
          largest circulation newspaper in Russia), in July, 1991, which was
          subsequently reprinted in the "Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate"
          (no. 10, 1991) which includes his words:

          "As a man of the Church, I take upon myself responsibility for all
          that occurred in the life of my Church, not only for the good, but
          also for the onerous, the regretful, and the erroneous."

          Regarding compromises that he and others made during the time of the
          Communist persecution, in the same interview, he said:

          "From those people for whom these compromises. silence, forced
          passivity, or expressions of loyalty which were permitted by the
          Church leadership during those years, caused pain, not only before
          God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding, and prayers."

          Perhaps even more significant was the official Epistle of Patriarch
          Alexei II and the entire Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church on
          the 75th Anniversary of the Murder of the Tsar-Martyr Nicholas II and
          his family (issued in July 1993), which includes the following words:

          "The sin of the murder of the Tsar, which took place in the face of
          the indifference of the citizens of Russia, has not been repented of
          by our people. Being a crime against both the law of God and man,
          this sin lies as a most heavy burden on the soul of the people, on
          its moral self-understanding."

          "And so today, we, on behalf of the whole Church, on behalf of all of
          its children--both those who have reposed and those who are now
          living-- we offer before God and the people repentance for this sin.
          Forgive us, O Lord!"

          No Christian would demand a more clear repentance, than this (if
          Christians even have the right to demand repentance from someone
          other than themsleves!).

          With love in Christ,

          Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          ... Thank you, Gene, for revealing your idee fixe: the demonization of the Patriarch of Moscow and all members of the Moscow Patriarchate. ... Actually, the
          Message 4 of 8 , May 3, 2006
            Gene wrote:

            >this is pure evil for those who still have their eyes open
            > this demon "patriarch" CAN NOT even talk about it
            > moleben for the end of Communism ?
            > He knows if he attempts something like this Devil will rip his
            > heart out on the spot
            > can't you hear the hissing ? see the forked tongue ?
            > are these the words of a Christian hierarch or a devil possessed lawyer ?

            Thank you, Gene, for revealing your idee fixe: the demonization of
            the Patriarch of Moscow and all members of the Moscow Patriarchate.




            >
            > and while I am on the subject, the MP demons must have worked
            > some kind of black magic on the ROCOR Synod, why else would they
            > all change their views so sudently and so radically ? it's like if
            > George Bush all of a sudden started advocating for gay rights,
            > universal health care and a huge tax raises for the upper class



            Actually, the ROCOR Synod is remaining absolutely true to the
            fundamental principles of the Church Abroad, which state that it is a
            "temporary" institution, existing separately from the rest of the
            Russian Church until the fall of communism in Russia.

            Also, see the words of Metropolotan Anthony (Khrapovitsky), who wrote
            to Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky) in May of 1933:

            "Let the communists release all of the bishops, let them give full
            and real freedom to the Church, let them establish conditions where
            communication may become normal, so that a trip to Russia for each of
            us would not be tied to the threat of an inescapable and martyric
            death in the cellars of the GPU, and we could participate in a
            Bishops' Council (Sobor), then, perhaps the need for the temporary
            independent existence of the Church Abroad would pass, and we would
            present all of our deeds in the past years to the scrutiny of a
            freely-convened All-Russian Council."

            Metropolitan Philaret, in his time, also issued an Epistle, in which
            he outlined some ten or twelve conditions that would have to be met
            before we could reestablish relations with the Moscow Patriarchate.
            These included the freedom to open churches, monasteries and
            convents, to teach religion to children, to freely publish spiritual
            literature, etc. Every one of his conditions has now been met.

            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            A different view from the secular press than the ones touted by Peter Bushunow has appeared (Apr. 29, Komsomol skaya Pravda) The author, Sergei Vladimirov
            Message 5 of 8 , May 3, 2006
              A different view from the secular press than the ones touted by Peter
              Bushunow has appeared (Apr. 29, Komsomol'skaya Pravda)

              The author, Sergei Vladimirov concludes:

              "In Russia today, for the first time in many decades, there has
              appeared a President who does not simply hold a candle in front of
              television cameras, but who recognizes the process of the spiritual
              rebirth of the people as a part of the government's policy. In this
              he has found full mutual understanding with Patriarch Alexei II, and,
              it seems, with Metropolitan Laurus. Should such a moment be let to
              slip? It is impossible to tell when everything will again come
              together so fortuitously. In the history of the Russian State, there
              has never been a time when an ecclesiastical schism has been
              overcome. On the 6th of May, the delegates to the IV All-Diasporan
              Council of the ROCOR may not only establish a precedent, but even
              show an example to the entire Christian world, having overcome their
              own internal disagreements for the sake of the rebirth of the Motherland."

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • gene703
              Dear Fr. Alexander, Thank you for engaging in this discussion. I have a couple of questions I am sure everyone would like to have answered in order to clear
              Message 6 of 8 , May 4, 2006
                Dear Fr. Alexander,

                Thank you for engaging in this discussion. I have a couple of questions I am sure everyone would like to have answered in order to clear the air before the sobor. I'll try to be as polite as possible.

                1. Communism officially fell in 1991 with the break up of USSR and election of a regional communist boss Mr. Yeltsin as a president of newly minted Russian Federation. Until 1999 you have continued to espouse and publish hard-core anti-patriarchate views not much different from my own (pick your own favorite quote). Then all of a sudden you have changed your mind. What prompted you personally to change your views back in 2000 ?

                2. You quote from Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) "perhaps the need for the temporary independent existence of the Church Abroad would pass, and we would present all of our deeds in the past years to the scrutiny of a freely-convened All-Russian Council"

                As far as I know the last "freely-convened All-Russian Council" was convened in 1918 and it has been officially abolished by MP in 2000 and replaced by the Bishops council. Bishops who, let me be as diplomatic as I can, obtained their positions while Soviet Union was alive and well and the Russian Orthodox church was officially captive. Is Patriarch Alexy II and his Bishops qualified to scrutinize ROCOR ? Are they the Mother Church ?

                3. Sergianism. When asked about it Patriarch Alexy II chose to respond - "I spoke about it more than once, during the years when this was a relevant question for us in Russia, when we, finally, could say aloud what was bothering us. One does not wish to repeat endlessly something already said"

                Would you agree that this responce looks very mich like a classic stonewalling by an experienced lawyer ? Is there an Orthodox equivalent of a 5th amendment to the US Constitution against self-incrimination for Bishops ? Whatever happend to confession of sins ? Is this the kind of response one would expect from a practicing Christian ?


                The situation with unification looks very confusing to a lot of people. All kind of conspiracy theories fly around. This is not a unification in "love and truth" for a sizable chunk of our church members. Your answers will surely help some to make up their mind one way or another. I thank you very much in advance.

                Respectfully
                Gene T

                "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:
                Gene wrote:

                >this is pure evil for those who still have their eyes open
                > this demon "patriarch" CAN NOT even talk about it
                > moleben for the end of Communism ?
                > He knows if he attempts something like this Devil will rip his
                > heart out on the spot
                > can't you hear the hissing ? see the forked tongue ?
                > are these the words of a Christian hierarch or a devil possessed lawyer ?

                Thank you, Gene, for revealing your idee fixe: the demonization of
                the Patriarch of Moscow and all members of the Moscow Patriarchate.




                >
                > and while I am on the subject, the MP demons must have worked
                > some kind of black magic on the ROCOR Synod, why else would they
                > all change their views so sudently and so radically ? it's like if
                > George Bush all of a sudden started advocating for gay rights,
                > universal health care and a huge tax raises for the upper class



                Actually, the ROCOR Synod is remaining absolutely true to the
                fundamental principles of the Church Abroad, which state that it is a
                "temporary" institution, existing separately from the rest of the
                Russian Church until the fall of communism in Russia.

                Also, see the words of Metropolotan Anthony (Khrapovitsky), who wrote
                to Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky) in May of 1933:

                "Let the communists release all of the bishops, let them give full
                and real freedom to the Church, let them establish conditions where
                communication may become normal, so that a trip to Russia for each of
                us would not be tied to the threat of an inescapable and martyric
                death in the cellars of the GPU, and we could participate in a
                Bishops' Council (Sobor), then, perhaps the need for the temporary
                independent existence of the Church Abroad would pass, and we would
                present all of our deeds in the past years to the scrutiny of a
                freely-convened All-Russian Council."

                Metropolitan Philaret, in his time, also issued an Epistle, in which
                he outlined some ten or twelve conditions that would have to be met
                before we could reestablish relations with the Moscow Patriarchate.
                These included the freedom to open churches, monasteries and
                convents, to teach religion to children, to freely publish spiritual
                literature, etc. Every one of his conditions has now been met.

                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod





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