Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] Still looking for answers

Expand Messages
  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! ... JRS: I have engaged in some rather lengthy e-mail exchanges with Mr. Bushunow and members of his family. I tried to answer them point
    Message 1 of 7 , May 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

      > posted
      > here by Mr. Bushunow...

      JRS: I have engaged in some rather lengthy e-mail exchanges with Mr. Bushunow and members of his family.

      I tried to answer them point by point, but they simply repeat the same accusations, and insist that whatever I, or other clergy, answer them, are "non-answers".

      That sort of exchange can go on ad infinitum (do bezkonechnosti), and lead to nothing except wasted time and efforts.

      However, I am told that the Bushunows are part of a group in Rochester NY, that refuse to accept any answers, or to believe that anything has changed in Russia.

      After a while, even I give up.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw


      --
      CoreComm Webmail.
      http://home.core.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mitin, Stiva
      ... In response to the recent posting regarding re: Soviet Active Measures in the Post-Cold War Era 1988-199 and after the WMD debacle, forgive me for
      Message 2 of 7 , May 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        On 5/2/06, vlutchenkov <vlutchenkov@...> wrote:
        > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!
        > The article is titled: Russian Federation Hypocrisy & Aggressive
        > Clandestine Activity
        > It can be viewed at; http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/28551
        > Here is one paragraph from the article.
        >
        > "The Moscow Patriarchate organization, not the plurality of the laity
        > and parish priests in Russia, is itself an instrument of the Russian
        > state as evidenced by its many comments in line with Russian state
        > expectations about the ROCOR's resistance to reunification, while
        > saying kinder, gentler things to the ROCOR. The ROCOR, having found
        > safe haven all of these years in the US, Europe and other lands,
        > would do well to block any re-unification of the Moscow Patriarch
        > with the ROCOR until the former KGB and current FSB running the
        > Patriarchate repent of it, die, or resign, and until the Russian
        > Federation has halted its new authoritarian experiment and become an
        > open society. Those authoritarian experiments of Russia's past have
        > not worked out so very well, have they?"

        In response to the recent posting regarding re: Soviet Active Measures in
        the "Post-Cold War" Era 1988-199 and after the WMD debacle, forgive me for
        scepticism for reports from various security agencies... and despite the
        fact that they have the imprimatur of having appeared on the Net. No matter
        where you stand on the issue, no one can deny that the ROC has enemies all
        over the world who would stop at nothing to prevent unity of the ROC.

        I found the TPM blogsite to be of some interest. The poster of the article,
        a Michael Woodson, has only been posting for 2 months and mostly about the
        war in Iraq. Lo and behold is an article on Russia. The posting is called
        "RF Hypocrisy & Aggressive Clandestine Activity," though after 2 paragraphs,
        Mr Woodson goes off on this tangent about the ROC and ROCOR.

        If I had to guess, I would assume that he is not Orthodox, since he doesn't
        capitalize the word Church as most Orthodox would. Continuing on the
        assumption that he is not Orthodox, he seems to know a lot about ROCOR and
        even writes: "Of some concern also, is that some members of the ROCOR are
        also employees of the US government." Exactly what does he mean here? Is he
        pesonally concerned? Are old and new Russian emigres concerned?

        Ask 10 heterodox colleagues, friends, relatives who may or may not know that
        you go to some Russian parish but that is about it. Ask them if they know
        what ROCOR/ROCA is. I would be stunned if even one person knew what ROCA is
        (and wouldn't say "Oh, you mean that clothing label for teens?")

        I also don't see how ROCOR fits into the picture of the RF's so-called
        "nostalgia for the USSR" that Mr Woodson writes of. ROCOR is 180 degrees
        opposite from the USSR, so that is certainly a non starter.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: Since some people see my replies as non-answers , let me give you the answers that I think they *really* are waiting to hear: It s
        Message 3 of 7 , May 3, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vlutchenkov" <vlutchenkov@...> wrote:

          > We look to our clergy for guidance and explanations yet we
          > have gotten nothing except for some non-answers.

          JRS: Since some people see my replies as "non-answers", let me give you the answers that I
          think they *really* are waiting to hear:

          "It's all a sham.

          "Communism did not really fall in Russia at all; it never can fall. The communist party still
          rules absolutely, but a pretense of a change is part of the Soviet strategy to fool the West.

          "The Soviet Union did not break up. Instead, a pretense of a breakup was passed off, in
          order to get more seats in the U.N.

          "There are no churches in Russia, and no religion at all; except for the secretive and
          elusive Catacomb Church which anathematizes the godless MP.

          "The public churches that tourists see, are Potemkin villages; and the "services" those
          tourists are shown, are carried out by actors posing as believers. The same actors go from
          place to place and put on their "show", wherever the gullible tourists are taken by KGB
          Intourist guides.

          "The inhabitants of Russia are mostly not real Russians anymore, but Soviet human beings.
          They are marching in lock-step with the KGB, and are ready to take over the world.

          "There are many times more of them, than all the rest of the world population put
          together. The menace of Islam can be ignored, because the Soviets are the real threat to
          humanity, but most of all to the surviving anti-communist Russian emigres.

          "They will use the sham-church to invade this country and all the rest of the free world.

          "They will come and get us. We all face the midnight knock, and we will be seized and
          carried off right out of our homes, with no possibility of hiding anywhere.

          "We will be imprisoned in Siberia, at hard labor. Then they will nail us into coffins and bury
          us alive in the hard Siberian permafrost.

          "And nobody, nobody will be there to save us".

          Now every statement above is obvious nonsense. But there are people who believe it all, or
          something very close to it.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • vlutchenkov
          XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! A combination of two threads (or even three of your responses). Father John: (#16490) Again, vintage Vova ! Vova: And a fine vintage if I
          Message 4 of 7 , May 3, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

            A combination of two threads (or even three of your responses).

            Father John: (#16490) Again, "vintage Vova"!
            Vova: And a fine vintage if I do say so myself.

            Father John: (#16497) I have engaged in some rather lengthy e-mail
            exchanges with Mr. Bushunow and members of his family.
            Vova: Okay, but my last name is Lutchenkov, so I guess we can go on.

            Father John: (#16498) Since some people see my replies as "non-
            answers", let me give you the answers that I think they *really* are
            waiting to hear:
            Vova: There were some good and funny lines in that message. We all
            need a bit of stress relief. (Thank you)

            (WARNING OFF TOPIC) Father John: (#16498) "The Soviet Union did not
            break up. Instead, a pretense of a breakup was passed off, in order
            to get more seats in the U.N.
            Vova: Actually they already had three votes representing the Union of
            Soviet Socialist Republics. (USSR, BSSR, and UkSSR) Please note that
            the "Russians" were once again not represented.
            (OFF OFF TOPIC)

            Father John: (#16490) The obvious answer to that would be that, if
            you truly repented, and if that was the only issue at that, given
            confession: then, Yes.
            Vova: That was the quick and short answer. Thank you. Now without
            further beating around the bush – time is short, you have to start
            packing. I would have expected that you would have at least inquired
            if I had any direct participation in any of the terrible activities
            perpetrated by the Anti Rabbit League against colonies, warrens,
            nests, herds, litters, downs, or husks of those scary little
            rabbits. So be it.

            Now back to a real question. Yes I have read Patriarch
            Alexy's "repentance statement," but the wording was that of a
            true "wordsmith" (note: I did not call him any other names). It
            completely avoided his association and activities as a known and
            identified agent of the KGB. I find his response insincere and a
            very poor example for his flock. I also think it may be an indicator
            that with him holding the position "Patriarch, the Churches should
            continue to talk and may be allow concelebrating of priests but not
            of/or with Bishops at this time. I am also of the opinion that until
            such time that the current Patriarch (or any future one that was
            directly associated with the country's security and intelligence
            services) sets an example by confessing to his/their direct
            association we should not consider commemorating him. If he/they do
            that they will have set a true example of confession. (For the folks
            that would argue that we can not trust such a confession. All I can
            say is – Then that is between him and the final ultimate Judge.)
            These are my opinions and as I stated earlier I hope that you will
            provide me with your thoughts/guidance as part of our ongoing
            discussion.


            Father John: (#16491)
            <<Vova: (#16489) Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have
            seen, heard and what has been reported there were attempts to remove
            people as delegates that were perceived as not following the party
            line. Ooops sorry, I meant were not "team players".
            Father John: That has not been the case in this Diocese.

            Vova: I am glad to hear you say that. I am also glad to see that you
            restricted it to only the Diocese you serve in. However, it appears
            that at least one such attempt was made at the highest levels of our
            Church. That attempt was based on what appears to have been the
            advice and prodding of both Father Alexander Lebedeff and Archbishop
            Mark. They attempted (and for awhile succeeded) to deny
            participation in the Sobor of a duly elected member of the laity from
            a Ukrainian-based Diocese. As a matter of fact if I am not mistaken
            the action even at that time was wrong simply in the fact that it was
            interference in on the territory/diocese of another Bishop. The
            reasoning that I have read for this attempt was absolutely baseless,
            uninformed and even smacked of hypocrisy. While on one hand
            justification for the denial was to avoid being accused of Sergianism
            in relation to the U.S. Government (yes definition du Jour and how
            ridiculous!), but then two paragraphs later there was a comment akin
            to "What would the Russian Government say about such an individual's
            participation in our Sobor?" Now that would be closer to what we
            have been taught Sergianism was (or is it still?). My answer to that
            absurd question/comment was and is, "Who cares!!!???" The worst part
            of this whole initial episode was that while it was briefly mentioned
            on this list, very few people reacted to it and the message or
            statement our Synod of Bishops made by going forth with the action at
            that time. As I have said before words are important and those said a
            lot. Recently I noticed that wiser heads prevailed, and the
            attempted denial has been rescinded. I am left wondering if the
            persons that made false accusations will ask for forgiveness from the
            victims of those false insinuations and accusations?

            Father John please except my apology for placing so many
            questions/issues before your trip. I do hope that you may be able to
            answer them before you go. As far as the last issue, regarding
            Bishop Agafangel's diocese, since you did not participate in that I
            understand if you choose not to speak on behalf of or to defend
            someone else. But if you have thoughts about it fine.

            In Christ,
            Boba or to some Vova
          • boulia_1
            Dear Father -- He is Truly Risen! You forgot a few key ones: The clergy of the Synod Cathedral have been personally profiting from huge donations from the
            Message 5 of 7 , May 3, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Father -- He is Truly Risen!

              You forgot a few key ones:

              "The clergy of the Synod Cathedral have been personally profiting
              from huge donations from the Russian government."

              "Met. Laurus, Abp. Mark and Father (Insert Name here...e.g. Victor,
              Alexander, John...) are working for the KGB, and have been for at
              least 15 years."


              Praying for peace and asking your blessing,
              Elizabeth



              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
              <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
              >
              > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vlutchenkov"
              <vlutchenkov@> wrote:
              >
              > > We look to our clergy for guidance and explanations yet we
              > > have gotten nothing except for some non-answers.
              >
              > JRS: Since some people see my replies as "non-answers", let me
              give you the answers that I
              > think they *really* are waiting to hear:
              >
              > "It's all a sham.
              >
              > "Communism did not really fall in Russia at all; it never can
              fall. The communist party still
              > rules absolutely, but a pretense of a change is part of the Soviet
              strategy to fool the West.
              >
              > "The Soviet Union did not break up. Instead, a pretense of a
              breakup was passed off, in
              > order to get more seats in the U.N.
              >
              > "There are no churches in Russia, and no religion at all; except
              for the secretive and
              > elusive Catacomb Church which anathematizes the godless MP.
              >
              > "The public churches that tourists see, are Potemkin villages; and
              the "services" those
              > tourists are shown, are carried out by actors posing as believers.
              The same actors go from
              > place to place and put on their "show", wherever the gullible
              tourists are taken by KGB
              > Intourist guides.
              >
              > "The inhabitants of Russia are mostly not real Russians anymore,
              but Soviet human beings.
              > They are marching in lock-step with the KGB, and are ready to take
              over the world.
              >
              > "There are many times more of them, than all the rest of the world
              population put
              > together. The menace of Islam can be ignored, because the Soviets
              are the real threat to
              > humanity, but most of all to the surviving anti-communist Russian
              emigres.
              >
              > "They will use the sham-church to invade this country and all the
              rest of the free world.
              >
              > "They will come and get us. We all face the midnight knock, and we
              will be seized and
              > carried off right out of our homes, with no possibility of hiding
              anywhere.
              >
              > "We will be imprisoned in Siberia, at hard labor. Then they will
              nail us into coffins and bury
              > us alive in the hard Siberian permafrost.
              >
              > "And nobody, nobody will be there to save us".
              >
              > Now every statement above is obvious nonsense. But there are
              people who believe it all, or
              > something very close to it.
              >
              > In Christ
              > Fr. John R. Shaw
              >
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! ... JRS: There was also no Russian communist party : but only parties for all the other republics and ethnic groups. They seemed to be
              Message 6 of 7 , May 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

                > Vova: Actually they [the USSR] already had three votes representing the Union of
                > Soviet Socialist Republics. (USSR, BSSR, and UkSSR) Please note that
                > the "Russians" were once again not represented.

                JRS: There was also no "Russian communist party": but only parties for all the other republics and ethnic groups. They seemed to be afraid of Russian nationalism...

                > Now back to a real question. Yes I have read Patriarch
                > Alexy's "repentance statement," but the wording was that of a
                > true "wordsmith" (note: I did not call him any other names).

                JRS: That in itself is a significant point. As you may have noticed, Peter Bushunow does not believe that such a statement ever existed. You are thus a witness to it, and have said so twice.

                Thank you for supporting my point on that.

                > I also think it may be an indicator
                > that with him holding the position "Patriarch, the Churches should
                > continue to talk and may be allow concelebrating of priests but not
                > of/or with Bishops at this time.

                JRS: Either we are in communion, or we are not. If we are, then in theory any clergy of ROCOR and the MP could concelebrate, if they so chose.

                After the ordination of a deacon for ROCOR by an MP bishop, in practice there has already been a concelebration with a bishop of the MP.

                > I am also of the opinion that until
                > such time that the current Patriarch (or any future one that was
                > directly associated with the country's security and intelligence
                > services) sets an example by confessing to his/their direct
                > association we should not consider commemorating him.

                JRS: For what it's worth, I have commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow (as did St. John Maximovitch) at the Proskomedia, ever since I have been a priest (30 years and more now, starting back in NJ).

                When, in 1990, Patriarch Pimen died, I intoned "Vechmaya pamyat" for him at the end of a Sunday Liturgy in our Chicago cathedral. The choir sang "Vechnaya pamyat", and there were no complaints that I ever heard of, then or afterward.

                > These are my opinions and as I stated earlier I hope that you will
                > provide me with your thoughts/guidance as part of our ongoing
                > discussion.

                > Father John: That [removing delegates for their views] has not been the case in this Diocese.

                > Vova: I am glad to hear you say that. I am also glad to see that you
                > restricted it to only the Diocese you serve in.

                JRS: I didn't really restrict it, but I have no direct knowledge of anything else.

                > However, it appears
                > that at least one such attempt was made at the highest levels of our
                > Church.

                JRS: As I understood it, the idea was that an American ambassador would have a conflict of interests. But in the end, they decided to let it go.

                > My answer to that
                > absurd question/comment was and is, "Who cares!!!???"

                JRS: There are a slew of questions that I would prefer to answer in the same words. However, we have had complaints about "non-answers", so I refrain from saying that.

                > I am left wondering if the
                > persons that made false accusations will ask for forgiveness from the
                > victims of those false insinuations and accusations?

                JRS: There have been a lot of false accusations going around, including false accusations of making false accusations, on several sides. My advice: don't hold your breath waiting...

                > Father John please except my apology for placing so many
                > questions/issues before your trip.

                JRS: There will be plenty of questions/issues on the trip, too. They never end, at least in this life.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
                --
                CoreComm Webmail.
                http://home.core.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.