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  • vlutchenkov
    XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! Attached is a link to a rather interesting article. I found the link on another orthodox yahoo groups site. The article is titled: Russian
    Message 1 of 7 , May 2, 2006
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      XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

      Attached is a link to a rather interesting article. I found the link
      on another orthodox yahoo groups site.

      The article is titled: Russian Federation Hypocrisy & Aggressive
      Clandestine Activity
      It can be viewed at; http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/28551

      Here is one paragraph from the article.

      "The Moscow Patriarchate organization, not the plurality of the laity
      and parish priests in Russia, is itself an instrument of the Russian
      state as evidenced by its many comments in line with Russian state
      expectations about the ROCOR's resistance to reunification, while
      saying kinder, gentler things to the ROCOR. The ROCOR, having found
      safe haven all of these years in the US, Europe and other lands,
      would do well to block any re-unification of the Moscow Patriarch
      with the ROCOR until the former KGB and current FSB running the
      Patriarchate repent of it, die, or resign, and until the Russian
      Federation has halted its new authoritarian experiment and become an
      open society. Those authoritarian experiments of Russia's past have
      not worked out so very well, have they?"

      As I have said before I see absolutely noting wrong in conducting the
      ongoing talks between the two Churches. However, this article along
      with some of the other articles (or references to articles) posted
      here by Mr. Bushunow, myself and others regarding the "purity" of the
      higher levels of the MP should not be written off as they appear to
      have been by those running headlong into the arms of the "Mother"
      Church. As a matter of fact what we hear is the sound of crickets
      regarding these issues/questions. We have not heard from any of the
      clergy (normally very active on this list) respond to these very
      specific issues and questions that have been posed by lay members of
      ROCOR. We look to our clergy for guidance and explanations yet we
      have gotten nothing except for some non-answers.

      The more I look at this issue and the potential "politics" behind
      these talks I fear that some of the advice and guidance given to our
      Bishops is based on misinformation, lack of understanding of current
      Russian internal politics, possibly some disinformation (which was
      either used knowingly or unknowingly), and a serious lack of respect
      for the capabilities and intent of an organization (with a new name)
      but the same old tricks. Which brings me to the question. It is a
      fact that the current patriarch and some members of the episcopate
      served two masters in the past, but do they still?

      The attached article is not that long, I hope those that will chose
      to respond to this posting take the time to read it before making
      comments.

      Again I repeat. This appears to be the underling issue in many
      attempted discussions and yet it keeps getting swept under the rug.
      That rug is starting to show quite a hump in the middle.
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! ... JRS: I have engaged in some rather lengthy e-mail exchanges with Mr. Bushunow and members of his family. I tried to answer them point
      Message 2 of 7 , May 2, 2006
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        XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

        > posted
        > here by Mr. Bushunow...

        JRS: I have engaged in some rather lengthy e-mail exchanges with Mr. Bushunow and members of his family.

        I tried to answer them point by point, but they simply repeat the same accusations, and insist that whatever I, or other clergy, answer them, are "non-answers".

        That sort of exchange can go on ad infinitum (do bezkonechnosti), and lead to nothing except wasted time and efforts.

        However, I am told that the Bushunows are part of a group in Rochester NY, that refuse to accept any answers, or to believe that anything has changed in Russia.

        After a while, even I give up.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw


        --
        CoreComm Webmail.
        http://home.core.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mitin, Stiva
        ... In response to the recent posting regarding re: Soviet Active Measures in the Post-Cold War Era 1988-199 and after the WMD debacle, forgive me for
        Message 3 of 7 , May 2, 2006
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          On 5/2/06, vlutchenkov <vlutchenkov@...> wrote:
          > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!
          > The article is titled: Russian Federation Hypocrisy & Aggressive
          > Clandestine Activity
          > It can be viewed at; http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/28551
          > Here is one paragraph from the article.
          >
          > "The Moscow Patriarchate organization, not the plurality of the laity
          > and parish priests in Russia, is itself an instrument of the Russian
          > state as evidenced by its many comments in line with Russian state
          > expectations about the ROCOR's resistance to reunification, while
          > saying kinder, gentler things to the ROCOR. The ROCOR, having found
          > safe haven all of these years in the US, Europe and other lands,
          > would do well to block any re-unification of the Moscow Patriarch
          > with the ROCOR until the former KGB and current FSB running the
          > Patriarchate repent of it, die, or resign, and until the Russian
          > Federation has halted its new authoritarian experiment and become an
          > open society. Those authoritarian experiments of Russia's past have
          > not worked out so very well, have they?"

          In response to the recent posting regarding re: Soviet Active Measures in
          the "Post-Cold War" Era 1988-199 and after the WMD debacle, forgive me for
          scepticism for reports from various security agencies... and despite the
          fact that they have the imprimatur of having appeared on the Net. No matter
          where you stand on the issue, no one can deny that the ROC has enemies all
          over the world who would stop at nothing to prevent unity of the ROC.

          I found the TPM blogsite to be of some interest. The poster of the article,
          a Michael Woodson, has only been posting for 2 months and mostly about the
          war in Iraq. Lo and behold is an article on Russia. The posting is called
          "RF Hypocrisy & Aggressive Clandestine Activity," though after 2 paragraphs,
          Mr Woodson goes off on this tangent about the ROC and ROCOR.

          If I had to guess, I would assume that he is not Orthodox, since he doesn't
          capitalize the word Church as most Orthodox would. Continuing on the
          assumption that he is not Orthodox, he seems to know a lot about ROCOR and
          even writes: "Of some concern also, is that some members of the ROCOR are
          also employees of the US government." Exactly what does he mean here? Is he
          pesonally concerned? Are old and new Russian emigres concerned?

          Ask 10 heterodox colleagues, friends, relatives who may or may not know that
          you go to some Russian parish but that is about it. Ask them if they know
          what ROCOR/ROCA is. I would be stunned if even one person knew what ROCA is
          (and wouldn't say "Oh, you mean that clothing label for teens?")

          I also don't see how ROCOR fits into the picture of the RF's so-called
          "nostalgia for the USSR" that Mr Woodson writes of. ROCOR is 180 degrees
          opposite from the USSR, so that is certainly a non starter.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: Since some people see my replies as non-answers , let me give you the answers that I think they *really* are waiting to hear: It s
          Message 4 of 7 , May 3, 2006
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            XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vlutchenkov" <vlutchenkov@...> wrote:

            > We look to our clergy for guidance and explanations yet we
            > have gotten nothing except for some non-answers.

            JRS: Since some people see my replies as "non-answers", let me give you the answers that I
            think they *really* are waiting to hear:

            "It's all a sham.

            "Communism did not really fall in Russia at all; it never can fall. The communist party still
            rules absolutely, but a pretense of a change is part of the Soviet strategy to fool the West.

            "The Soviet Union did not break up. Instead, a pretense of a breakup was passed off, in
            order to get more seats in the U.N.

            "There are no churches in Russia, and no religion at all; except for the secretive and
            elusive Catacomb Church which anathematizes the godless MP.

            "The public churches that tourists see, are Potemkin villages; and the "services" those
            tourists are shown, are carried out by actors posing as believers. The same actors go from
            place to place and put on their "show", wherever the gullible tourists are taken by KGB
            Intourist guides.

            "The inhabitants of Russia are mostly not real Russians anymore, but Soviet human beings.
            They are marching in lock-step with the KGB, and are ready to take over the world.

            "There are many times more of them, than all the rest of the world population put
            together. The menace of Islam can be ignored, because the Soviets are the real threat to
            humanity, but most of all to the surviving anti-communist Russian emigres.

            "They will use the sham-church to invade this country and all the rest of the free world.

            "They will come and get us. We all face the midnight knock, and we will be seized and
            carried off right out of our homes, with no possibility of hiding anywhere.

            "We will be imprisoned in Siberia, at hard labor. Then they will nail us into coffins and bury
            us alive in the hard Siberian permafrost.

            "And nobody, nobody will be there to save us".

            Now every statement above is obvious nonsense. But there are people who believe it all, or
            something very close to it.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • vlutchenkov
            XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! A combination of two threads (or even three of your responses). Father John: (#16490) Again, vintage Vova ! Vova: And a fine vintage if I
            Message 5 of 7 , May 3, 2006
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              XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

              A combination of two threads (or even three of your responses).

              Father John: (#16490) Again, "vintage Vova"!
              Vova: And a fine vintage if I do say so myself.

              Father John: (#16497) I have engaged in some rather lengthy e-mail
              exchanges with Mr. Bushunow and members of his family.
              Vova: Okay, but my last name is Lutchenkov, so I guess we can go on.

              Father John: (#16498) Since some people see my replies as "non-
              answers", let me give you the answers that I think they *really* are
              waiting to hear:
              Vova: There were some good and funny lines in that message. We all
              need a bit of stress relief. (Thank you)

              (WARNING OFF TOPIC) Father John: (#16498) "The Soviet Union did not
              break up. Instead, a pretense of a breakup was passed off, in order
              to get more seats in the U.N.
              Vova: Actually they already had three votes representing the Union of
              Soviet Socialist Republics. (USSR, BSSR, and UkSSR) Please note that
              the "Russians" were once again not represented.
              (OFF OFF TOPIC)

              Father John: (#16490) The obvious answer to that would be that, if
              you truly repented, and if that was the only issue at that, given
              confession: then, Yes.
              Vova: That was the quick and short answer. Thank you. Now without
              further beating around the bush – time is short, you have to start
              packing. I would have expected that you would have at least inquired
              if I had any direct participation in any of the terrible activities
              perpetrated by the Anti Rabbit League against colonies, warrens,
              nests, herds, litters, downs, or husks of those scary little
              rabbits. So be it.

              Now back to a real question. Yes I have read Patriarch
              Alexy's "repentance statement," but the wording was that of a
              true "wordsmith" (note: I did not call him any other names). It
              completely avoided his association and activities as a known and
              identified agent of the KGB. I find his response insincere and a
              very poor example for his flock. I also think it may be an indicator
              that with him holding the position "Patriarch, the Churches should
              continue to talk and may be allow concelebrating of priests but not
              of/or with Bishops at this time. I am also of the opinion that until
              such time that the current Patriarch (or any future one that was
              directly associated with the country's security and intelligence
              services) sets an example by confessing to his/their direct
              association we should not consider commemorating him. If he/they do
              that they will have set a true example of confession. (For the folks
              that would argue that we can not trust such a confession. All I can
              say is – Then that is between him and the final ultimate Judge.)
              These are my opinions and as I stated earlier I hope that you will
              provide me with your thoughts/guidance as part of our ongoing
              discussion.


              Father John: (#16491)
              <<Vova: (#16489) Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have
              seen, heard and what has been reported there were attempts to remove
              people as delegates that were perceived as not following the party
              line. Ooops sorry, I meant were not "team players".
              Father John: That has not been the case in this Diocese.

              Vova: I am glad to hear you say that. I am also glad to see that you
              restricted it to only the Diocese you serve in. However, it appears
              that at least one such attempt was made at the highest levels of our
              Church. That attempt was based on what appears to have been the
              advice and prodding of both Father Alexander Lebedeff and Archbishop
              Mark. They attempted (and for awhile succeeded) to deny
              participation in the Sobor of a duly elected member of the laity from
              a Ukrainian-based Diocese. As a matter of fact if I am not mistaken
              the action even at that time was wrong simply in the fact that it was
              interference in on the territory/diocese of another Bishop. The
              reasoning that I have read for this attempt was absolutely baseless,
              uninformed and even smacked of hypocrisy. While on one hand
              justification for the denial was to avoid being accused of Sergianism
              in relation to the U.S. Government (yes definition du Jour and how
              ridiculous!), but then two paragraphs later there was a comment akin
              to "What would the Russian Government say about such an individual's
              participation in our Sobor?" Now that would be closer to what we
              have been taught Sergianism was (or is it still?). My answer to that
              absurd question/comment was and is, "Who cares!!!???" The worst part
              of this whole initial episode was that while it was briefly mentioned
              on this list, very few people reacted to it and the message or
              statement our Synod of Bishops made by going forth with the action at
              that time. As I have said before words are important and those said a
              lot. Recently I noticed that wiser heads prevailed, and the
              attempted denial has been rescinded. I am left wondering if the
              persons that made false accusations will ask for forgiveness from the
              victims of those false insinuations and accusations?

              Father John please except my apology for placing so many
              questions/issues before your trip. I do hope that you may be able to
              answer them before you go. As far as the last issue, regarding
              Bishop Agafangel's diocese, since you did not participate in that I
              understand if you choose not to speak on behalf of or to defend
              someone else. But if you have thoughts about it fine.

              In Christ,
              Boba or to some Vova
            • boulia_1
              Dear Father -- He is Truly Risen! You forgot a few key ones: The clergy of the Synod Cathedral have been personally profiting from huge donations from the
              Message 6 of 7 , May 3, 2006
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                Dear Father -- He is Truly Risen!

                You forgot a few key ones:

                "The clergy of the Synod Cathedral have been personally profiting
                from huge donations from the Russian government."

                "Met. Laurus, Abp. Mark and Father (Insert Name here...e.g. Victor,
                Alexander, John...) are working for the KGB, and have been for at
                least 15 years."


                Praying for peace and asking your blessing,
                Elizabeth



                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                >
                > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
                >
                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vlutchenkov"
                <vlutchenkov@> wrote:
                >
                > > We look to our clergy for guidance and explanations yet we
                > > have gotten nothing except for some non-answers.
                >
                > JRS: Since some people see my replies as "non-answers", let me
                give you the answers that I
                > think they *really* are waiting to hear:
                >
                > "It's all a sham.
                >
                > "Communism did not really fall in Russia at all; it never can
                fall. The communist party still
                > rules absolutely, but a pretense of a change is part of the Soviet
                strategy to fool the West.
                >
                > "The Soviet Union did not break up. Instead, a pretense of a
                breakup was passed off, in
                > order to get more seats in the U.N.
                >
                > "There are no churches in Russia, and no religion at all; except
                for the secretive and
                > elusive Catacomb Church which anathematizes the godless MP.
                >
                > "The public churches that tourists see, are Potemkin villages; and
                the "services" those
                > tourists are shown, are carried out by actors posing as believers.
                The same actors go from
                > place to place and put on their "show", wherever the gullible
                tourists are taken by KGB
                > Intourist guides.
                >
                > "The inhabitants of Russia are mostly not real Russians anymore,
                but Soviet human beings.
                > They are marching in lock-step with the KGB, and are ready to take
                over the world.
                >
                > "There are many times more of them, than all the rest of the world
                population put
                > together. The menace of Islam can be ignored, because the Soviets
                are the real threat to
                > humanity, but most of all to the surviving anti-communist Russian
                emigres.
                >
                > "They will use the sham-church to invade this country and all the
                rest of the free world.
                >
                > "They will come and get us. We all face the midnight knock, and we
                will be seized and
                > carried off right out of our homes, with no possibility of hiding
                anywhere.
                >
                > "We will be imprisoned in Siberia, at hard labor. Then they will
                nail us into coffins and bury
                > us alive in the hard Siberian permafrost.
                >
                > "And nobody, nobody will be there to save us".
                >
                > Now every statement above is obvious nonsense. But there are
                people who believe it all, or
                > something very close to it.
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
                >
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!! ... JRS: There was also no Russian communist party : but only parties for all the other republics and ethnic groups. They seemed to be
                Message 7 of 7 , May 3, 2006
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                  XPICTOC BOCKPECE!!!

                  > Vova: Actually they [the USSR] already had three votes representing the Union of
                  > Soviet Socialist Republics. (USSR, BSSR, and UkSSR) Please note that
                  > the "Russians" were once again not represented.

                  JRS: There was also no "Russian communist party": but only parties for all the other republics and ethnic groups. They seemed to be afraid of Russian nationalism...

                  > Now back to a real question. Yes I have read Patriarch
                  > Alexy's "repentance statement," but the wording was that of a
                  > true "wordsmith" (note: I did not call him any other names).

                  JRS: That in itself is a significant point. As you may have noticed, Peter Bushunow does not believe that such a statement ever existed. You are thus a witness to it, and have said so twice.

                  Thank you for supporting my point on that.

                  > I also think it may be an indicator
                  > that with him holding the position "Patriarch, the Churches should
                  > continue to talk and may be allow concelebrating of priests but not
                  > of/or with Bishops at this time.

                  JRS: Either we are in communion, or we are not. If we are, then in theory any clergy of ROCOR and the MP could concelebrate, if they so chose.

                  After the ordination of a deacon for ROCOR by an MP bishop, in practice there has already been a concelebration with a bishop of the MP.

                  > I am also of the opinion that until
                  > such time that the current Patriarch (or any future one that was
                  > directly associated with the country's security and intelligence
                  > services) sets an example by confessing to his/their direct
                  > association we should not consider commemorating him.

                  JRS: For what it's worth, I have commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow (as did St. John Maximovitch) at the Proskomedia, ever since I have been a priest (30 years and more now, starting back in NJ).

                  When, in 1990, Patriarch Pimen died, I intoned "Vechmaya pamyat" for him at the end of a Sunday Liturgy in our Chicago cathedral. The choir sang "Vechnaya pamyat", and there were no complaints that I ever heard of, then or afterward.

                  > These are my opinions and as I stated earlier I hope that you will
                  > provide me with your thoughts/guidance as part of our ongoing
                  > discussion.

                  > Father John: That [removing delegates for their views] has not been the case in this Diocese.

                  > Vova: I am glad to hear you say that. I am also glad to see that you
                  > restricted it to only the Diocese you serve in.

                  JRS: I didn't really restrict it, but I have no direct knowledge of anything else.

                  > However, it appears
                  > that at least one such attempt was made at the highest levels of our
                  > Church.

                  JRS: As I understood it, the idea was that an American ambassador would have a conflict of interests. But in the end, they decided to let it go.

                  > My answer to that
                  > absurd question/comment was and is, "Who cares!!!???"

                  JRS: There are a slew of questions that I would prefer to answer in the same words. However, we have had complaints about "non-answers", so I refrain from saying that.

                  > I am left wondering if the
                  > persons that made false accusations will ask for forgiveness from the
                  > victims of those false insinuations and accusations?

                  JRS: There have been a lot of false accusations going around, including false accusations of making false accusations, on several sides. My advice: don't hold your breath waiting...

                  > Father John please except my apology for placing so many
                  > questions/issues before your trip.

                  JRS: There will be plenty of questions/issues on the trip, too. They never end, at least in this life.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                  --
                  CoreComm Webmail.
                  http://home.core.com

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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