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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Evi [CHRIST IS RISEN!] dence of manipulation of the Russian Orthodox Church

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    XPICTOC BOCKPECE! And our discussion continues. ... JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack. ... JRS: By team I meant
    Message 1 of 7 , May 1, 2006
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      XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

      And our discussion continues.

      > Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I try
      > keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.

      JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack.

      > Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
      > correct?

      JRS: By "team" I meant representing this ROCOR Diocese (Chicago-Detroit Diocese).

      > Can I come?

      JRS: Now that sounds like the old Vova.

      Actually you can, but only the church services and a few other events are open to non-delegates (I believe there is a listing at the Sobor website).

      > By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter to
      > Metropolitan Lavr?

      JRS: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?

      > but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
      > Society).

      JRS: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.

      > Unfortunately it is only in Russian.

      JRS: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in Russian.

      > One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine but
      > what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"

      JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First Hierarch.

      > He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
      > more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in too
      > much secrecy.

      JRS: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have every word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".

      However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public, even though I don't think the sesssions were taped. Even if they had been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without sleep.

      > Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
      > example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it were
      > up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if the
      > MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of the
      > laity.

      JRS: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new arrivals from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such things: I tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish meeting, but the best I could do was get them to come to the dinner that preceded it. When the actual meeting began, the last of them slipped out, and we had only a handful of "old emigres".

      > Actually we
      > still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web site.
      > Why is that?

      JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
      --
      CoreComm Webmail.
      http://home.core.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vlutchenkov
      Voistinu BOCKPECE! And our discussion continues further. Father John: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack. Vova: Yes I know.
      Message 2 of 7 , May 1, 2006
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        Voistinu BOCKPECE!

        And our discussion continues further.

        Father John: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a
        Don Cossack.
        Vova: Yes I know. But I hope that he is Orthodox first. Some of the
        Cossacks do not have such a great record as far as how they have
        treated the Church, people, and country.

        Father John: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?
        Vova: My mistake. Father Georgii Edelstein of the Kostroma Diocese
        in Russia.

        Father John: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two
        societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and
        a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.
        Vova: Father, I did start with "but please do not react to the Web
        site (Metropolitan Anthony Society)." So this time I will not go
        down this road. Lets get back to the question at hand, what do you
        have to say about Father Georgii's letter?

        Father John: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in
        Russian.
        Vova: And better than me!!! That comment was for others that may have
        come across our ongoing exchange and do not read Russian. I feel
        sorry for them not because they do not read Russian but
        because "saving Russia" is not the first thing on their mind but
        being Orthodox is and its seems that that is being lost in all of
        these "reconciliation" talks. With comments like "injection of a true
        Russian spirit/soul into Russia" by the ROCOR, which has many very
        good orthodox that are not Russian. What is more important Russian
        or Orthodox? (It's a question of semantics some may say but I find
        it incorrect to say Russian Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox member
        the Church of Russia.

        Father John:
        <<Vova: One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent
        fine but what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
        JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First
        Hierarch.
        Vova: Okay fine I guess he did not give you an answer. But what are
        your thoughts on this?

        Father John: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have
        every word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".
        However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was
        itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public,
        even though I don't think the sessions were taped. Even if they had
        been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all
        the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without
        sleep.
        Vova: I think being "attacked" verbally is something the commission
        could have handled, when compared to the "attacks" that occurred
        against the Church in the Soviet Union. Keeping it private really
        did not work either considering some of the leaks that occurred.
        None of this has helped the Church.

        Father John: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new
        arrivals from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such
        things: I tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish
        meeting, but the best I could do was get them to come to the dinner
        that preceded it. When the actual meeting began, the last of them
        slipped out, and we had only a handful of "old emigres".
        Vova: My point was that it seems that there was or is a fear that
        there is a fear of actually hearing from the laity at our Sobor.

        Father John:
        <<Vova: Actually we still do not have a list of delegates posted on
        the Sobor Web site. Why is that?
        JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.

        Vova: I hate guessing but as long as you opened it up - I would
        venture to say that there appears to be an attempt to vet people.
        Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have seen, heard and
        what has been reported there were attempts to remove people as
        delegates that were perceived as not following the party line. Ooops
        sorry, I meant were not "team players."

        In Christ
        Boba or Vova


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        >
        > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
        >
        > And our discussion continues.
        >
        > > Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I
        try
        > > keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.
        >
        > JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don
        Cossack.
        >
        > > Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
        > > correct?
        >
        > JRS: By "team" I meant representing this ROCOR Diocese (Chicago-
        Detroit Diocese).
        >
        > > Can I come?
        >
        > JRS: Now that sounds like the old Vova.
        >
        > Actually you can, but only the church services and a few other
        events are open to non-delegates (I believe there is a listing at the
        Sobor website).
        >
        > > By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter
        to
        > > Metropolitan Lavr?
        >
        > JRS: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?
        >
        > > but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
        > > Society).
        >
        > JRS: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two
        societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and
        a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.
        >
        > > Unfortunately it is only in Russian.
        >
        > JRS: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in Russian.
        >
        > > One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine
        but
        > > what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
        >
        > JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First
        Hierarch.
        >
        > > He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
        > > more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in
        too
        > > much secrecy.
        >
        > JRS: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have every
        word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".
        >
        > However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was
        itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public,
        even though I don't think the sesssions were taped. Even if they had
        been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all
        the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without
        sleep.
        >
        > > Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
        > > example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it
        were
        > > up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if
        the
        > > MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of
        the
        > > laity.
        >
        > JRS: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new arrivals
        from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such things: I
        tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish meeting, but the
        best I could do was get them to come to the dinner that preceded it.
        When the actual meeting began, the last of them slipped out, and we
        had only a handful of "old emigres".
        >
        > > Actually we
        > > still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web
        site.
        > > Why is that?
        >
        > JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
        > --
        > CoreComm Webmail.
        > http://home.core.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: I would have to go back in the archive to go over every point. But in general, he seems rather middle of the road : he has
        Message 3 of 7 , May 2, 2006
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          XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

          Vova Lutchenkov wrote:

          > Lets get back to the question at hand, what do you
          > have to say about Father Georgii's letter?

          JRS: I would have to go back in the archive to go over every point. But in general, he seems rather "middle of the road": he has criticism and praise for elements in both the MP (his own jurisdiction) and ROCOR.

          > (It's a question of semantics some may say but I find
          > it incorrect to say Russian Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox member
          > the Church of Russia.

          JRS: Besides Russians, there are also Armenians, Georgians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Uzbeks, and just about any nationality you could name (and some many of us have never heard of) in both the MP and ROCOR.

          Besides that, as you may recall, there are even some Cossacks who consider that their nationality, instead of "Russian".

          > <<Vova: One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent
          > fine but what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
          > But what are
          > your thoughts on this?

          JRS: I think that good progress is being made.

          > Keeping it [commission work] private really
          > did not work either considering some of the leaks that occurred.
          > None of this has helped the Church.

          JRS: At least at the beginning, they needed some privacy to be able to start getting to know one another and sorting out what the issues were.

          Those who have been attacking them, would have done so no matter what the circumstances.

          > My point was that it seems that there was or is a fear that
          > there is a fear of actually hearing from the laity at our Sobor.

          JRS: If we could somehow hear equally from ALL the laity, that would be helpful. But in practice, there are a few people who like to make noise, and the "silent majority" that may entirely disagree with the noise made by the few.

          > Father John:
          > <<Vova: Actually we still do not have a list of delegates posted on
          > the Sobor Web site. Why is that?

          JRS: Probably, because the groups that are raising a storm against reconciliation, would have given the delegates no peace, had they known their names, phone numbers, mailing addresses...

          > Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have seen, heard and
          > what has been reported there were attempts to remove people as
          > delegates that were perceived as not following the party line. Ooops
          > sorry, I meant were not "team players".

          JRS: That has not been the case in this Diocese.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw



          --
          CoreComm Webmail.
          http://home.core.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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