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Re: Evi [CHRIST IS RISEN!] dence of manipulation of the Russian Orthodox Church

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  • vlutchenkov
    And our discussion continues. ... folks respond. JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you respond. Vova: Absolutely!!! That would be a
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 29, 2006
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      And our discussion continues.

      Father John:
      > > Vova: I am not making accusations just observations of how
      folks respond.
      JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you
      respond.

      Vova: Absolutely!!! That would be a discussion. But I would hope
      that they respond on the issue and not go off on a tangent that has
      nothing to do with the matter at hand.

      > JRS: The "Serbian Question" is something that has troubled me
      deeply for years. I was so bothered by it that I quit watching the
      news on TV, except when I could get the Russian news from Moscow,
      which was sympathetic to the Orthodox Serbs.

      Vova: Fair enough but with so little time before the Sobor we should
      try to stick to the Sobor. But I will say that at least we are free
      to criticize our government and not worry about it. Though it is
      tough to get others to hear when the mass media does such a bad job
      of providing all of the news. Just remember what the New York Times
      has on its front page "All the News That's Fit to Print." They
      decide what is fit for us or (U.S. citizens) to know. (Vova goes off
      topic.)

      Father John: Not really. I simply got the feeling of something
      adversarial in your postings. If I was wrong, Slava Tebe Gospodi.

      Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I try
      keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.

      Father John: Dima and I are to be "on the same team" next week at
      the Sobor, so one would hope we'll be able to work easily together.

      Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
      correct? Or will there be different colored jerseys? Can I come? I
      will be the guy in the white and black striped shirt (no cossack or
      hussar hats it will be held indoors) throwing a little yellow hanky
      and blowing my whistle. That may come in handy if there are illegal
      procedures, personal fouls, unsportsman like conduct or to0 many men
      on the field. If you give me the opportunity I am sure there will
      be quite a few flags thrown against both teams if the prayer before
      the Sobor is not enough for all. (Adverserial? I think - not
      both "sides" need a ref.)

      By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter to
      Metropolitan Lavr? It is from 2003 but according to the site that
      posted it he still stands by what he said then. His phone number
      was even provided for verification. I must say it sounds very
      similar to what he said at our parish. I am providing the link here,
      but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
      Society). Whatever you may wish top say about them/it, remember the
      letter is his. (http://www.metanthonymemorial.org/VernostNo45.htm)
      Unfortunately it is only in Russian.

      Since I once again mentioned the meeting in Washington, DC, I will
      say that the posting about the event on the ROCOR Web site is not
      truly accurate or at least does not do justice to a well attended,
      polite and stimulating 4 hours.
      (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/3enzubovdc.html)
      (This one is in English.)

      The meeting lasted four hours and there were questions after the
      initial presentations. The entire meeting was video taped and it
      would be great if it was made available to all interested parties.
      Father Georgii made a number of interesting comments or questions.
      One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine but
      what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"

      The second point I found interesting was his comment - no lets just
      call it a statement of fact - because of the way and tone he said it
      in. He said "There still does not exist or has been written (by the
      MP Church) a true biography of my Patriarch." And he did mean that
      in regards to the Patriarch's ties to the KGB.

      He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
      more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in too
      much secrecy.

      Finally, his comments about our Sobor. First it is great and he
      hopes that Russia would have one also it is long overdue. (Even
      though 1991 is a long time ago Russia still has not had what ROCOR
      is about to have.) Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
      example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it were
      up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if the
      MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of the
      laity. One can only hope. It is to late for ours. Actually we
      still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web site.
      Why is that?

      In Christ
      Vova

      PS. Now on a different note: I am still wondering why is it when I
      send a response it takes from three to 12 hours to post on the
      site. Yet your post responding to me got posted within an hour. (It
      is about 6:45pm EST right now.)
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      >
      > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
      >
      > > Indeed He is Risen!
      > >
      > > Father bless!
      >
      > JRS: Bog da blagoslovit!
      >
      > > Vova: I am not making accusations just observations of how
      folks
      > > respond.
      >
      > JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you
      respond.
      >
      > > I wish we would not divide
      > > ourselves or the Church as "for" or "against." If the two
      Church
      > > administrations are having discussions then that is what we
      should
      > > be doing on lists such as this – discussing and not creating
      > > disputes.
      >
      > JRS: I agree with you there, 100%. I should say, "150%"!
      >
      > > I am all for these discussions. However, they should be
      > > just that – discussions, and on point or point by point. I also
      > > wish that "disputes could be dropped," and replaced with
      discussions
      > > held in a polite and fact-based manner.
      >
      > JRS: But that, dear people, is the stuff that dreams are made of...
      >
      > > Vova: ...But then
      > > you go further off topic by saying in your second sentence "The
      > > United States was an ally of Osama Bin Ladin in the war against
      the
      > > Serbs." Now Father I can not say that you are "some sort of
      > > deceiver, or as somehow lacking candor, honesty or directness,"
      but
      > > I can ask, Why must we continue to deviate from the original
      posting
      > > and discussion?
      >

      >
      > To this day, if Bill Clinton or Maggie Albright (whose life had
      been saved by the Serbs, but who refuses to recognize the Serbian
      family that took her in when she was in need, even though they still
      have letters written by her) or Senators McCain or Biden appear on
      TV, I immediately change the station, or simply turn it off.
      >
      > I can't look at their faces...
      >
      > Perhaps all that is "off topic" too, but it has a direct bearing
      on the issues. At least for me, it does.
      >
      > And then, who really stays "on topic" here?
      >
      > > Vova: [on defining "Sergianism":] Not now and not on this
      thread. But Iwill say that we should
      > > keep the discussion regarding Sergianism within the parameters
      of
      > > our Church and Russia and not create new boogey men and thus
      > > distract from an important issue.
      >
      > JRS: Again I agree with you. Perhaps we have been talking at cross-
      purposes.
      >
      > > Lastly, I get the feeling that you think I am some sort
      of "ROCOR
      > > hermit" with a stick that I use to chase away anything or anyone
      > > associated with the Russian Orthodox Church (MP).
      >
      > JRS: Not really. I simply got the feeling of something adversarial
      in your postings.
      >
      > If I was wrong, Slava Tebe Gospodi.
      >
      > Dima and I are to be "on the same team" next week at the Sobor, so
      one would hope we'll be able to work easily together.
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
      >
      >
      > --
      > CoreComm Webmail.
      > http://home.core.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      XPICTOC BOCKPECE! And our discussion continues. ... JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack. ... JRS: By team I meant
      Message 2 of 7 , May 1, 2006
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        XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

        And our discussion continues.

        > Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I try
        > keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.

        JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack.

        > Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
        > correct?

        JRS: By "team" I meant representing this ROCOR Diocese (Chicago-Detroit Diocese).

        > Can I come?

        JRS: Now that sounds like the old Vova.

        Actually you can, but only the church services and a few other events are open to non-delegates (I believe there is a listing at the Sobor website).

        > By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter to
        > Metropolitan Lavr?

        JRS: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?

        > but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
        > Society).

        JRS: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.

        > Unfortunately it is only in Russian.

        JRS: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in Russian.

        > One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine but
        > what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"

        JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First Hierarch.

        > He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
        > more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in too
        > much secrecy.

        JRS: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have every word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".

        However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public, even though I don't think the sesssions were taped. Even if they had been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without sleep.

        > Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
        > example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it were
        > up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if the
        > MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of the
        > laity.

        JRS: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new arrivals from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such things: I tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish meeting, but the best I could do was get them to come to the dinner that preceded it. When the actual meeting began, the last of them slipped out, and we had only a handful of "old emigres".

        > Actually we
        > still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web site.
        > Why is that?

        JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
        --
        CoreComm Webmail.
        http://home.core.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vlutchenkov
        Voistinu BOCKPECE! And our discussion continues further. Father John: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack. Vova: Yes I know.
        Message 3 of 7 , May 1, 2006
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          Voistinu BOCKPECE!

          And our discussion continues further.

          Father John: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a
          Don Cossack.
          Vova: Yes I know. But I hope that he is Orthodox first. Some of the
          Cossacks do not have such a great record as far as how they have
          treated the Church, people, and country.

          Father John: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?
          Vova: My mistake. Father Georgii Edelstein of the Kostroma Diocese
          in Russia.

          Father John: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two
          societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and
          a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.
          Vova: Father, I did start with "but please do not react to the Web
          site (Metropolitan Anthony Society)." So this time I will not go
          down this road. Lets get back to the question at hand, what do you
          have to say about Father Georgii's letter?

          Father John: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in
          Russian.
          Vova: And better than me!!! That comment was for others that may have
          come across our ongoing exchange and do not read Russian. I feel
          sorry for them not because they do not read Russian but
          because "saving Russia" is not the first thing on their mind but
          being Orthodox is and its seems that that is being lost in all of
          these "reconciliation" talks. With comments like "injection of a true
          Russian spirit/soul into Russia" by the ROCOR, which has many very
          good orthodox that are not Russian. What is more important Russian
          or Orthodox? (It's a question of semantics some may say but I find
          it incorrect to say Russian Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox member
          the Church of Russia.

          Father John:
          <<Vova: One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent
          fine but what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
          JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First
          Hierarch.
          Vova: Okay fine I guess he did not give you an answer. But what are
          your thoughts on this?

          Father John: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have
          every word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".
          However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was
          itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public,
          even though I don't think the sessions were taped. Even if they had
          been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all
          the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without
          sleep.
          Vova: I think being "attacked" verbally is something the commission
          could have handled, when compared to the "attacks" that occurred
          against the Church in the Soviet Union. Keeping it private really
          did not work either considering some of the leaks that occurred.
          None of this has helped the Church.

          Father John: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new
          arrivals from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such
          things: I tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish
          meeting, but the best I could do was get them to come to the dinner
          that preceded it. When the actual meeting began, the last of them
          slipped out, and we had only a handful of "old emigres".
          Vova: My point was that it seems that there was or is a fear that
          there is a fear of actually hearing from the laity at our Sobor.

          Father John:
          <<Vova: Actually we still do not have a list of delegates posted on
          the Sobor Web site. Why is that?
          JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.

          Vova: I hate guessing but as long as you opened it up - I would
          venture to say that there appears to be an attempt to vet people.
          Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have seen, heard and
          what has been reported there were attempts to remove people as
          delegates that were perceived as not following the party line. Ooops
          sorry, I meant were not "team players."

          In Christ
          Boba or Vova


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
          >
          > And our discussion continues.
          >
          > > Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I
          try
          > > keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.
          >
          > JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don
          Cossack.
          >
          > > Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
          > > correct?
          >
          > JRS: By "team" I meant representing this ROCOR Diocese (Chicago-
          Detroit Diocese).
          >
          > > Can I come?
          >
          > JRS: Now that sounds like the old Vova.
          >
          > Actually you can, but only the church services and a few other
          events are open to non-delegates (I believe there is a listing at the
          Sobor website).
          >
          > > By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter
          to
          > > Metropolitan Lavr?
          >
          > JRS: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?
          >
          > > but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
          > > Society).
          >
          > JRS: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two
          societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and
          a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.
          >
          > > Unfortunately it is only in Russian.
          >
          > JRS: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in Russian.
          >
          > > One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine
          but
          > > what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
          >
          > JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First
          Hierarch.
          >
          > > He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
          > > more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in
          too
          > > much secrecy.
          >
          > JRS: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have every
          word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".
          >
          > However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was
          itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public,
          even though I don't think the sesssions were taped. Even if they had
          been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all
          the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without
          sleep.
          >
          > > Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
          > > example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it
          were
          > > up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if
          the
          > > MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of
          the
          > > laity.
          >
          > JRS: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new arrivals
          from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such things: I
          tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish meeting, but the
          best I could do was get them to come to the dinner that preceded it.
          When the actual meeting began, the last of them slipped out, and we
          had only a handful of "old emigres".
          >
          > > Actually we
          > > still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web
          site.
          > > Why is that?
          >
          > JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
          > --
          > CoreComm Webmail.
          > http://home.core.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: I would have to go back in the archive to go over every point. But in general, he seems rather middle of the road : he has
          Message 4 of 7 , May 2, 2006
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            XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

            Vova Lutchenkov wrote:

            > Lets get back to the question at hand, what do you
            > have to say about Father Georgii's letter?

            JRS: I would have to go back in the archive to go over every point. But in general, he seems rather "middle of the road": he has criticism and praise for elements in both the MP (his own jurisdiction) and ROCOR.

            > (It's a question of semantics some may say but I find
            > it incorrect to say Russian Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox member
            > the Church of Russia.

            JRS: Besides Russians, there are also Armenians, Georgians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Uzbeks, and just about any nationality you could name (and some many of us have never heard of) in both the MP and ROCOR.

            Besides that, as you may recall, there are even some Cossacks who consider that their nationality, instead of "Russian".

            > <<Vova: One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent
            > fine but what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
            > But what are
            > your thoughts on this?

            JRS: I think that good progress is being made.

            > Keeping it [commission work] private really
            > did not work either considering some of the leaks that occurred.
            > None of this has helped the Church.

            JRS: At least at the beginning, they needed some privacy to be able to start getting to know one another and sorting out what the issues were.

            Those who have been attacking them, would have done so no matter what the circumstances.

            > My point was that it seems that there was or is a fear that
            > there is a fear of actually hearing from the laity at our Sobor.

            JRS: If we could somehow hear equally from ALL the laity, that would be helpful. But in practice, there are a few people who like to make noise, and the "silent majority" that may entirely disagree with the noise made by the few.

            > Father John:
            > <<Vova: Actually we still do not have a list of delegates posted on
            > the Sobor Web site. Why is that?

            JRS: Probably, because the groups that are raising a storm against reconciliation, would have given the delegates no peace, had they known their names, phone numbers, mailing addresses...

            > Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have seen, heard and
            > what has been reported there were attempts to remove people as
            > delegates that were perceived as not following the party line. Ooops
            > sorry, I meant were not "team players".

            JRS: That has not been the case in this Diocese.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw



            --
            CoreComm Webmail.
            http://home.core.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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