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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Evi [CHRIST IS RISEN!] dence of manipulation of the Russian Orthodox Church

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: I notice that Vova s postings repeatedly accuse those of our people who speak in favor of reconciliation, of speaking misleadingly,
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 28, 2006
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      XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

      Vova Lutchenkov wrote:

      > I am sorry to say this Father, but your response appears to be a knee
      > jerk reaction. You spent time typing an answer to something that by
      > your own response you did not read.
      > I will now respond to two of your off topic remarks/comments

      JRS: I notice that Vova's postings repeatedly accuse those of our people who speak in favor of reconciliation, of speaking misleadingly, or of evading the issues.

      I for one have been frank and open. I am not concealing anything, or avoiding anything (except that I wish the whole dispute could be dropped).

      It is more helpful to confront the issue itself, rather than to confront each person as some sort of deceiver, or as somehow lacking candor, honesty or directness.

      > 1.) You said "... our US Government is willing to support Moslem
      > TERRORISTS before they will support ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS." Father
      > need you be reminded that Patriarch Alexis recently hosted a
      > representative of HAMAS. This was after President Putin met with him.

      JRS: That the Patriarch is willing to meet with people and talk to them, does not mean that he supports Islamic terrorism.

      The United States was an ally of Osama Bin Ladin in the war against the Serbs.

      > 2.) Which leads me to your second deviations from the article
      > suggested to be read. "Sergianism" - this concept/word seems to have
      > a new meaning every time I see it used. Is your use in this response
      > the definition du jour?

      JRS: Perhaps you would like to offer a definition of Sergianism?

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
      --
      CoreComm Webmail.
      http://home.core.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vlutchenkov
      Indeed He is Risen! Father bless! First, in response to your post two or so weeks ago. Of course I knew who you were. I have gotten older (maybe not wiser)
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 29, 2006
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        Indeed He is Risen!

        Father bless!

        First, in response to your post two or so weeks ago. Of course I
        knew who you were. I have gotten older (maybe not wiser) but my
        memory has not completely failed me. We have not seen each other in
        many years and that is a shame. I remember the days back at
        the "Gorka." Oh and before anyone else says anything – Yes Father
        John is addressing me correctly. I have always been and am used to
        being called Vova. (That was a just in case comment.)
        Now back to our discussion.

        Father John: I notice that Vova's postings repeatedly accuse those
        of our people who speak in favor of reconciliation, of speaking
        misleadingly, or of evading the issues. I for one have been frank
        and open. I am not concealing anything, or avoiding anything (except
        that I wish the whole dispute could be dropped).

        Vova: I am not making accusations just observations of how folks
        respond. In this case it was quite obvious by Father Staphan's own
        response that he did not bother to read the attached article. So I
        believe my response to him was fair. I wish we would not divide
        ourselves or the Church as "for" or "against." If the two Church
        administrations are having discussions then that is what we should
        be doing on lists such as this – discussing and not creating
        disputes. I am all for these discussions. However, they should be
        just that – discussions, and on point or point by point. I also
        wish that "disputes could be dropped," and replaced with discussions
        held in a polite and fact-based manner.

        Father John: It is more helpful to confront the issue itself, rather
        than to confront each person as some sort of deceiver, or as somehow
        lacking candor, honesty or directness.

        Vova: I agree with your concept, but lets agree to change "more
        helpful to confront the issue" to "more helpful to discuss the
        issue." As far as "to confront each person as some sort of
        deceiver, or as somehow lacking candor, honesty or directness," I
        would disagree with that assessment. I am not "confronting" but
        making an observation that many times the issue being discussed or
        an attempt to discuss an issue is cast aside and we all go off on a
        tangent that has nothing truly to do with the issue before us – the
        Church.

        Father John: That the Patriarch is willing to meet with people and
        talk to them, does not mean that he supports Islamic terrorism.

        Vova: Here is a case in point that supports my previous comment. I
        started that portion of my response to Father Stephan with the
        statement "I will now respond to two of your off topic
        remarks/comments." I can not disagree with your first sentence of
        your response to my off topic response (as shown above). But then
        you go further off topic by saying in your second sentence "The
        United States was an ally of Osama Bin Ladin in the war against the
        Serbs." Now Father I can not say that you are "some sort of
        deceiver, or as somehow lacking candor, honesty or directness," but
        I can ask, Why must we continue to deviate from the original posting
        and discussion? (But oh how tempted I am to respond to your second
        sentence.)

        Father John: Perhaps you would like to offer a definition of
        Sergianism?

        Vova: Not now and not on this thread. But Iwill say that we should
        keep the discussion regarding Sergianism within the parameters of
        our Church and Russia and not create new boogey men and thus
        distract from an important issue.

        Lastly, I get the feeling that you think I am some sort of "ROCOR
        hermit" with a stick that I use to chase away anything or anyone
        associated with the Russian Orthodox Church (MP). That would be a
        very wrong assumption. When I lived in or visited Moscow (last time
        6 years ago) I attended services in both Churches' parishes.
        Furthermore, I have known Father Georgii Edelstein for over 10
        years. He has been to my house and yes I always go to him for a
        blessing. I have high regard and respect for him. I was present
        during his latest visit to Washington, DC, when he and Andrei
        Borisovich Zubov, a political science professor of the Moscow State
        Institute of International Relations, participated in a 4 hour
        discussion with our parishioners about the talks and upcoming Sobor.
        (Held on Sunday, 26 March 2006,at St. John the Baptist Cathedral in
        Washington , DC) But more about that and yes some inaccuracies in
        what was posted on the ROCOR Web site regarding that meeting I will
        save for another thread.

        In Christ
        Boba
        (Not to be confused with Vova H)

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        >
        > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
        >
        > Vova Lutchenkov wrote:
        >
        > > I am sorry to say this Father, but your response appears to be a
        knee
        > > jerk reaction. You spent time typing an answer to something
        that by
        > > your own response you did not read.
        > > I will now respond to two of your off topic remarks/comments
        >
        > JRS: I notice that Vova's postings repeatedly accuse those of our
        people who speak in favor of reconciliation, of speaking
        misleadingly, or of evading the issues.
        >
        > I for one have been frank and open. I am not concealing anything,
        or avoiding anything (except that I wish the whole dispute could be
        dropped).
        >
        > It is more helpful to confront the issue itself, rather than to
        confront each person as some sort of deceiver, or as somehow lacking
        candor, honesty or directness.
        >
        > > 1.) You said "... our US Government is willing to support Moslem
        > > TERRORISTS before they will support ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS."
        Father
        > > need you be reminded that Patriarch Alexis recently hosted a
        > > representative of HAMAS. This was after President Putin met
        with him.
        >
        > JRS: That the Patriarch is willing to meet with people and talk to
        them, does not mean that he supports Islamic terrorism.
        >
        > The United States was an ally of Osama Bin Ladin in the war
        against the Serbs.
        >
        > > 2.) Which leads me to your second deviations from the article
        > > suggested to be read. "Sergianism" - this concept/word seems to
        have
        > > a new meaning every time I see it used. Is your use in this
        response
        > > the definition du jour?
        >
        > JRS: Perhaps you would like to offer a definition of Sergianism?
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
        > --
        > CoreComm Webmail.
        > http://home.core.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: Bog da blagoslovit! ... JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you respond. ... JRS: I agree with you there,
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 29, 2006
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          XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

          > Indeed He is Risen!
          >
          > Father bless!

          JRS: Bog da blagoslovit!

          > Vova: I am not making accusations just observations of how folks
          > respond.

          JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you respond.

          > I wish we would not divide
          > ourselves or the Church as "for" or "against." If the two Church
          > administrations are having discussions then that is what we should
          > be doing on lists such as this – discussing and not creating
          > disputes.

          JRS: I agree with you there, 100%. I should say, "150%"!

          > I am all for these discussions. However, they should be
          > just that – discussions, and on point or point by point. I also
          > wish that "disputes could be dropped," and replaced with discussions
          > held in a polite and fact-based manner.

          JRS: But that, dear people, is the stuff that dreams are made of...

          > Vova: ...But then
          > you go further off topic by saying in your second sentence "The
          > United States was an ally of Osama Bin Ladin in the war against the
          > Serbs." Now Father I can not say that you are "some sort of
          > deceiver, or as somehow lacking candor, honesty or directness," but
          > I can ask, Why must we continue to deviate from the original posting
          > and discussion?

          JRS: The "Serbian Question" is something that has troubled me deeply for years.

          I was so bothered by it that I quit watching the news on TV, except when I could get the Russian news from Moscow, which was sympathetic to the Orthodox Serbs.

          To this day, if Bill Clinton or Maggie Albright (whose life had been saved by the Serbs, but who refuses to recognize the Serbian family that took her in when she was in need, even though they still have letters written by her) or Senators McCain or Biden appear on TV, I immediately change the station, or simply turn it off.

          I can't look at their faces...

          Perhaps all that is "off topic" too, but it has a direct bearing on the issues. At least for me, it does.

          And then, who really stays "on topic" here?

          > Vova: [on defining "Sergianism":] Not now and not on this thread. But Iwill say that we should
          > keep the discussion regarding Sergianism within the parameters of
          > our Church and Russia and not create new boogey men and thus
          > distract from an important issue.

          JRS: Again I agree with you. Perhaps we have been talking at cross-purposes.

          > Lastly, I get the feeling that you think I am some sort of "ROCOR
          > hermit" with a stick that I use to chase away anything or anyone
          > associated with the Russian Orthodox Church (MP).

          JRS: Not really. I simply got the feeling of something adversarial in your postings.

          If I was wrong, Slava Tebe Gospodi.

          Dima and I are to be "on the same team" next week at the Sobor, so one would hope we'll be able to work easily together.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw


          --
          CoreComm Webmail.
          http://home.core.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vlutchenkov
          And our discussion continues. ... folks respond. JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you respond. Vova: Absolutely!!! That would be a
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 29, 2006
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            And our discussion continues.

            Father John:
            > > Vova: I am not making accusations just observations of how
            folks respond.
            JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you
            respond.

            Vova: Absolutely!!! That would be a discussion. But I would hope
            that they respond on the issue and not go off on a tangent that has
            nothing to do with the matter at hand.

            > JRS: The "Serbian Question" is something that has troubled me
            deeply for years. I was so bothered by it that I quit watching the
            news on TV, except when I could get the Russian news from Moscow,
            which was sympathetic to the Orthodox Serbs.

            Vova: Fair enough but with so little time before the Sobor we should
            try to stick to the Sobor. But I will say that at least we are free
            to criticize our government and not worry about it. Though it is
            tough to get others to hear when the mass media does such a bad job
            of providing all of the news. Just remember what the New York Times
            has on its front page "All the News That's Fit to Print." They
            decide what is fit for us or (U.S. citizens) to know. (Vova goes off
            topic.)

            Father John: Not really. I simply got the feeling of something
            adversarial in your postings. If I was wrong, Slava Tebe Gospodi.

            Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I try
            keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.

            Father John: Dima and I are to be "on the same team" next week at
            the Sobor, so one would hope we'll be able to work easily together.

            Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
            correct? Or will there be different colored jerseys? Can I come? I
            will be the guy in the white and black striped shirt (no cossack or
            hussar hats it will be held indoors) throwing a little yellow hanky
            and blowing my whistle. That may come in handy if there are illegal
            procedures, personal fouls, unsportsman like conduct or to0 many men
            on the field. If you give me the opportunity I am sure there will
            be quite a few flags thrown against both teams if the prayer before
            the Sobor is not enough for all. (Adverserial? I think - not
            both "sides" need a ref.)

            By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter to
            Metropolitan Lavr? It is from 2003 but according to the site that
            posted it he still stands by what he said then. His phone number
            was even provided for verification. I must say it sounds very
            similar to what he said at our parish. I am providing the link here,
            but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
            Society). Whatever you may wish top say about them/it, remember the
            letter is his. (http://www.metanthonymemorial.org/VernostNo45.htm)
            Unfortunately it is only in Russian.

            Since I once again mentioned the meeting in Washington, DC, I will
            say that the posting about the event on the ROCOR Web site is not
            truly accurate or at least does not do justice to a well attended,
            polite and stimulating 4 hours.
            (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/3enzubovdc.html)
            (This one is in English.)

            The meeting lasted four hours and there were questions after the
            initial presentations. The entire meeting was video taped and it
            would be great if it was made available to all interested parties.
            Father Georgii made a number of interesting comments or questions.
            One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine but
            what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"

            The second point I found interesting was his comment - no lets just
            call it a statement of fact - because of the way and tone he said it
            in. He said "There still does not exist or has been written (by the
            MP Church) a true biography of my Patriarch." And he did mean that
            in regards to the Patriarch's ties to the KGB.

            He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
            more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in too
            much secrecy.

            Finally, his comments about our Sobor. First it is great and he
            hopes that Russia would have one also it is long overdue. (Even
            though 1991 is a long time ago Russia still has not had what ROCOR
            is about to have.) Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
            example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it were
            up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if the
            MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of the
            laity. One can only hope. It is to late for ours. Actually we
            still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web site.
            Why is that?

            In Christ
            Vova

            PS. Now on a different note: I am still wondering why is it when I
            send a response it takes from three to 12 hours to post on the
            site. Yet your post responding to me got posted within an hour. (It
            is about 6:45pm EST right now.)
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
            <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
            >
            > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
            >
            > > Indeed He is Risen!
            > >
            > > Father bless!
            >
            > JRS: Bog da blagoslovit!
            >
            > > Vova: I am not making accusations just observations of how
            folks
            > > respond.
            >
            > JRS: But if you do that, others can equally comment on how you
            respond.
            >
            > > I wish we would not divide
            > > ourselves or the Church as "for" or "against." If the two
            Church
            > > administrations are having discussions then that is what we
            should
            > > be doing on lists such as this – discussing and not creating
            > > disputes.
            >
            > JRS: I agree with you there, 100%. I should say, "150%"!
            >
            > > I am all for these discussions. However, they should be
            > > just that – discussions, and on point or point by point. I also
            > > wish that "disputes could be dropped," and replaced with
            discussions
            > > held in a polite and fact-based manner.
            >
            > JRS: But that, dear people, is the stuff that dreams are made of...
            >
            > > Vova: ...But then
            > > you go further off topic by saying in your second sentence "The
            > > United States was an ally of Osama Bin Ladin in the war against
            the
            > > Serbs." Now Father I can not say that you are "some sort of
            > > deceiver, or as somehow lacking candor, honesty or directness,"
            but
            > > I can ask, Why must we continue to deviate from the original
            posting
            > > and discussion?
            >

            >
            > To this day, if Bill Clinton or Maggie Albright (whose life had
            been saved by the Serbs, but who refuses to recognize the Serbian
            family that took her in when she was in need, even though they still
            have letters written by her) or Senators McCain or Biden appear on
            TV, I immediately change the station, or simply turn it off.
            >
            > I can't look at their faces...
            >
            > Perhaps all that is "off topic" too, but it has a direct bearing
            on the issues. At least for me, it does.
            >
            > And then, who really stays "on topic" here?
            >
            > > Vova: [on defining "Sergianism":] Not now and not on this
            thread. But Iwill say that we should
            > > keep the discussion regarding Sergianism within the parameters
            of
            > > our Church and Russia and not create new boogey men and thus
            > > distract from an important issue.
            >
            > JRS: Again I agree with you. Perhaps we have been talking at cross-
            purposes.
            >
            > > Lastly, I get the feeling that you think I am some sort
            of "ROCOR
            > > hermit" with a stick that I use to chase away anything or anyone
            > > associated with the Russian Orthodox Church (MP).
            >
            > JRS: Not really. I simply got the feeling of something adversarial
            in your postings.
            >
            > If I was wrong, Slava Tebe Gospodi.
            >
            > Dima and I are to be "on the same team" next week at the Sobor, so
            one would hope we'll be able to work easily together.
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
            >
            >
            > --
            > CoreComm Webmail.
            > http://home.core.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            XPICTOC BOCKPECE! And our discussion continues. ... JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack. ... JRS: By team I meant
            Message 5 of 7 , May 1, 2006
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              XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

              And our discussion continues.

              > Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I try
              > keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.

              JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack.

              > Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
              > correct?

              JRS: By "team" I meant representing this ROCOR Diocese (Chicago-Detroit Diocese).

              > Can I come?

              JRS: Now that sounds like the old Vova.

              Actually you can, but only the church services and a few other events are open to non-delegates (I believe there is a listing at the Sobor website).

              > By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter to
              > Metropolitan Lavr?

              JRS: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?

              > but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
              > Society).

              JRS: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.

              > Unfortunately it is only in Russian.

              JRS: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in Russian.

              > One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine but
              > what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"

              JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First Hierarch.

              > He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
              > more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in too
              > much secrecy.

              JRS: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have every word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".

              However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public, even though I don't think the sesssions were taped. Even if they had been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without sleep.

              > Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
              > example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it were
              > up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if the
              > MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of the
              > laity.

              JRS: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new arrivals from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such things: I tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish meeting, but the best I could do was get them to come to the dinner that preceded it. When the actual meeting began, the last of them slipped out, and we had only a handful of "old emigres".

              > Actually we
              > still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web site.
              > Why is that?

              JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
              --
              CoreComm Webmail.
              http://home.core.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vlutchenkov
              Voistinu BOCKPECE! And our discussion continues further. Father John: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don Cossack. Vova: Yes I know.
              Message 6 of 7 , May 1, 2006
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                Voistinu BOCKPECE!

                And our discussion continues further.

                Father John: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a
                Don Cossack.
                Vova: Yes I know. But I hope that he is Orthodox first. Some of the
                Cossacks do not have such a great record as far as how they have
                treated the Church, people, and country.

                Father John: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?
                Vova: My mistake. Father Georgii Edelstein of the Kostroma Diocese
                in Russia.

                Father John: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two
                societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and
                a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.
                Vova: Father, I did start with "but please do not react to the Web
                site (Metropolitan Anthony Society)." So this time I will not go
                down this road. Lets get back to the question at hand, what do you
                have to say about Father Georgii's letter?

                Father John: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in
                Russian.
                Vova: And better than me!!! That comment was for others that may have
                come across our ongoing exchange and do not read Russian. I feel
                sorry for them not because they do not read Russian but
                because "saving Russia" is not the first thing on their mind but
                being Orthodox is and its seems that that is being lost in all of
                these "reconciliation" talks. With comments like "injection of a true
                Russian spirit/soul into Russia" by the ROCOR, which has many very
                good orthodox that are not Russian. What is more important Russian
                or Orthodox? (It's a question of semantics some may say but I find
                it incorrect to say Russian Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox member
                the Church of Russia.

                Father John:
                <<Vova: One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent
                fine but what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
                JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First
                Hierarch.
                Vova: Okay fine I guess he did not give you an answer. But what are
                your thoughts on this?

                Father John: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have
                every word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".
                However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was
                itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public,
                even though I don't think the sessions were taped. Even if they had
                been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all
                the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without
                sleep.
                Vova: I think being "attacked" verbally is something the commission
                could have handled, when compared to the "attacks" that occurred
                against the Church in the Soviet Union. Keeping it private really
                did not work either considering some of the leaks that occurred.
                None of this has helped the Church.

                Father John: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new
                arrivals from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such
                things: I tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish
                meeting, but the best I could do was get them to come to the dinner
                that preceded it. When the actual meeting began, the last of them
                slipped out, and we had only a handful of "old emigres".
                Vova: My point was that it seems that there was or is a fear that
                there is a fear of actually hearing from the laity at our Sobor.

                Father John:
                <<Vova: Actually we still do not have a list of delegates posted on
                the Sobor Web site. Why is that?
                JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.

                Vova: I hate guessing but as long as you opened it up - I would
                venture to say that there appears to be an attempt to vet people.
                Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have seen, heard and
                what has been reported there were attempts to remove people as
                delegates that were perceived as not following the party line. Ooops
                sorry, I meant were not "team players."

                In Christ
                Boba or Vova


                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                >
                > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
                >
                > And our discussion continues.
                >
                > > Vova: Adverserial??? Hmmmm. Must be that cossack blood! But I
                try
                > > keeping it on point and polite. That could be the hussar blood.
                >
                > JRS: Bear in mind that at least one of our ROCOR bishops is a Don
                Cossack.
                >
                > > Vova: "On the same team," that would be everyone at the Sobor
                > > correct?
                >
                > JRS: By "team" I meant representing this ROCOR Diocese (Chicago-
                Detroit Diocese).
                >
                > > Can I come?
                >
                > JRS: Now that sounds like the old Vova.
                >
                > Actually you can, but only the church services and a few other
                events are open to non-delegates (I believe there is a listing at the
                Sobor website).
                >
                > > By the way Father did you happen to see Father Gregoii's letter
                to
                > > Metropolitan Lavr?
                >
                > JRS: Fr. Gregori or Fr. Georgii?
                >
                > > but please do not react to the Web site (Metropolitan Anthony
                > > Society).
                >
                > JRS: The Metropolitan Anthony Society recently split into two
                societies: a "moderate" one headed by Eugene Magerovsky, and
                a "radical" one headed by George M. Soldatov.
                >
                > > Unfortunately it is only in Russian.
                >
                > JRS: I speak, read, write, and also give weekly sermons in Russian.
                >
                > > One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent fine
                but
                > > what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
                >
                > JRS: That was my question while Metropolitan Vitaly was our First
                Hierarch.
                >
                > > He also said that he perceived the preparations for the Sobor and
                > > more so in regard to the Commision meetings were being kept in
                too
                > > much secrecy.
                >
                > JRS: I think that, at first, they simply did not want to have every
                word they said attacked and distorted by "certain circles".
                >
                > However, the fact that the meetings were being kept private was
                itself made into an issue. So now a good deal has been made public,
                even though I don't think the sesssions were taped. Even if they had
                been, it would take someone from now till after the Sobor to view all
                the recorded sessions, even if they could do so nonstop and without
                sleep.
                >
                > > Finally, he thought that while it sets a great
                > > example for Russia our Sobor has few laity. He said that if it
                were
                > > up to him he would send even more laypeople. Maybe and when/if
                the
                > > MP has a Sobor it will actually allow a larger participation of
                the
                > > laity.
                >
                > JRS: Most of our parishioners today in Milwaukee are new arrivals
                from Russia. I notice that they take NO interest in such things: I
                tried hard to get people to attend the annual parish meeting, but the
                best I could do was get them to come to the dinner that preceded it.
                When the actual meeting began, the last of them slipped out, and we
                had only a handful of "old emigres".
                >
                > > Actually we
                > > still do not have a list of delegates posted on the Sobor Web
                site.
                > > Why is that?
                >
                > JRS: Your guess is as good as mine.
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
                > --
                > CoreComm Webmail.
                > http://home.core.com
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: I would have to go back in the archive to go over every point. But in general, he seems rather middle of the road : he has
                Message 7 of 7 , May 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

                  Vova Lutchenkov wrote:

                  > Lets get back to the question at hand, what do you
                  > have to say about Father Georgii's letter?

                  JRS: I would have to go back in the archive to go over every point. But in general, he seems rather "middle of the road": he has criticism and praise for elements in both the MP (his own jurisdiction) and ROCOR.

                  > (It's a question of semantics some may say but I find
                  > it incorrect to say Russian Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox member
                  > the Church of Russia.

                  JRS: Besides Russians, there are also Armenians, Georgians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Uzbeks, and just about any nationality you could name (and some many of us have never heard of) in both the MP and ROCOR.

                  Besides that, as you may recall, there are even some Cossacks who consider that their nationality, instead of "Russian".

                  > <<Vova: One question was (I will paraphrase)"If the MP must repent
                  > fine but what about you - ROCOR members - what will you repent?"
                  > But what are
                  > your thoughts on this?

                  JRS: I think that good progress is being made.

                  > Keeping it [commission work] private really
                  > did not work either considering some of the leaks that occurred.
                  > None of this has helped the Church.

                  JRS: At least at the beginning, they needed some privacy to be able to start getting to know one another and sorting out what the issues were.

                  Those who have been attacking them, would have done so no matter what the circumstances.

                  > My point was that it seems that there was or is a fear that
                  > there is a fear of actually hearing from the laity at our Sobor.

                  JRS: If we could somehow hear equally from ALL the laity, that would be helpful. But in practice, there are a few people who like to make noise, and the "silent majority" that may entirely disagree with the noise made by the few.

                  > Father John:
                  > <<Vova: Actually we still do not have a list of delegates posted on
                  > the Sobor Web site. Why is that?

                  JRS: Probably, because the groups that are raising a storm against reconciliation, would have given the delegates no peace, had they known their names, phone numbers, mailing addresses...

                  > Sorry but it seems that based on some of what I have seen, heard and
                  > what has been reported there were attempts to remove people as
                  > delegates that were perceived as not following the party line. Ooops
                  > sorry, I meant were not "team players".

                  JRS: That has not been the case in this Diocese.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw



                  --
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