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Re: EviCHRIST IS RISEN.dence of manipulation of the Russian Orthodox Church

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  • vlutchenkov
    Christ has Risen!! Christ has Risen!! Father bless, I am sorry to say this Father, but your response appears to be a knee jerk reaction. You spent time typing
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 28, 2006
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      Christ has Risen!!

      Christ has Risen!!

      Father bless,

      I am sorry to say this Father, but your response appears to be a knee
      jerk reaction. You spent time typing an answer to something that by
      your own response you did not read. "If it (the above mentioned
      report) is anything like..." This is really a poor way of hold a
      informed discussion. You also seem to exhibit a tendency that quite
      a few people on both sides of the "discussion" have - that of going
      off topic.

      I will now respond to two of your off topic remarks/comments

      1.) You said "... our US Government is willing to support Moslem
      TERRORISTS before they will support ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS." Father
      need you be reminded that Patriarch Alexis recently hosted a
      representative of HAMAS. This was after President Putin met with him.

      2.) Which leads me to your second deviations from the article
      suggested to be read. "Sergianism" - this concept/word seems to have
      a new meaning every time I see it used. Is your use in this response
      the definition du jour?

      In Christ
      Boba



      Boba


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
      <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
      >
      > peter.bushunow@> wrote:
      > ...a very interesting and informative document written by a section
      > of our US Department of State.
      > =============================================
      > CHRIST IS RISEN. XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
      >
      >
      > If it (the above mentioned report) is anything like their REPORT
      > about Serbia and the Moslem Terrorist Albanians who were and still
      > are supported by the US at KOSOVO POL'YE then their opinions on
      > RUSSIA and Russian Orthodoxy is NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF!!!!
      >
      >
      > American "interests" in SERBIA, in UKRAINE, Chechna and ASETIA show
      > that our US Government is willing to support Moslem TERRORISTS
      before
      > they will support ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS. This is very sad and
      > representatives and members of our Government who are Orthodox
      > Christians and also those Orthodox Christians who hold positions of
      > authority should openly and clearly state that they are
      categorically
      > opposed to the support of MOSLEM TERRORISTS over the suffering and
      > MURDER of innocent ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS and the destruction of
      > centuries old Orthodox Churches. Claiming to supposedly be silently
      > working in the background and asserting that they then can KEEP
      THEIR
      > HIGH OFFICE and work to BENEFIT THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by so doing
      seems
      > to be "Sergianism" without the BOLSHIVICK THREAT OF EXTERMINATION
      > which clergy and lay people during the SOVIET ERA had to deal with.
      > Can we not find compassion for their difficult plight (Orthodox
      > Clergy and Faithful who suffered the SOVIET REGIME) as we ourselves
      > fail our high calling to purity and witness?
      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      >
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Bushunow, Peter"
      > <peter.bushunow@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Christ is Risen!
      > >
      > > Fr. John Shaw writes that allegations that the Patriarch and many
      > of the
      > > Hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church are KGB agents is
      > > disinformation.
      > >
      > > I don't think this concern can be dismissed so easily. In
      addition
      > to
      > > several books written on the subject, there is a very interesting
      > and
      > > informative document written by a section of our US Department of
      > State.
      > >
      > > It is available on the internet, so I will not repost it here.
      The
      > > summary Appendix is the most interesting.
      > >
      > > Peter
      > >
      > > Soviet Active Measures in the "Post-Cold War" Era 1988-1991
      > >
      > >
      > > A Report Prepared at the Request of the
      > > United States House of Representatives
      > > Committee on Appropriations
      > > by the
      > > United States Information Agency
      > > June 1992
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      http://intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/index.htm#Contents
      > >
      >
      <http://intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/index.htm#Content
      > s>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The most relevant and interesting section is titled:
      > >
      > > Appendix: Recent Revelations About Soviet Active Measures
      > >
      > > Manipulation of the Russian Orthodox Church & the World Council of
      > > Churches: How "Black," "Gray," and "White" Active Measures Worked
      > > Together
      > >
      > > http://intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/sect_16e.htm
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > JRS: But our commission obvious does trust their commission.
      > > Remember that the two commissions have gotten to know each other
      > pretty
      > > well, over a couple of years of intent sessions.
      > >
      > > So for me, trusting our side, means trusting those whom our
      > side
      > > trusts.
      > >
      > > DN: I would disagree. Sometimes people can get so close to
      > the
      > > situation, that they need to step back to get an accurate view of
      > the
      > > big picture. The people on their commission are, I have no
      doubt,
      > very
      > > sharp and charismatic, just like their priests that were sent to
      > Nayak.
      > > But the MP commission is the negotiating apparatus of the upper
      > echelons
      > > of the Patriarchate. It is those top ranks of the Patriarchate
      > calling
      > > the shots that I don't trust, and, by extension, and committees
      that
      > > they set up to represent their views.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > JRS: If you had read the stuff that I have, mostly on the
      > > internet, you might begin to understand that not
      all "information"
      > is to
      > > be taken at face value.
      > >
      > > Estonia has been treating the ethnic Russians, along with the
      > > Russian Church, as second class at best. To this day, only the
      > Estonian
      > > Orthodox parishes (which follow Constantinople, the new calendar
      > and the
      > > new Paschalia) have legal possession of their churches. The
      Russian
      > > parishes (under the MP) can only rent their church buildings, even
      > > though they had been built by the Russian Orthodox. For years,
      > Russians,
      > > even though born in Estonia, did not have citizenship there. It
      was
      > only
      > > international pressure over "civil rights" that finally softened
      > their
      > > lot somewhat.
      > >
      > > Estonian nationalists therefore have a purpose in discrediting
      > > the Russian Orthodox Church. So did the KGB in releasing its
      > > "compromising documents".
      > >
      > > DN: Can we believe Metropolitan Chrysostom of Vilnius (MP) who
      > > publicly admitted being employed by the KGB as an agent, even
      > giving his
      > > codename, and loudly warned that there are others?
      > >
      > > I don't know what it is that you've read on the Internet, but
      > > what it looks to me that you would have us believe is that in a
      > regime
      > > that was so paranoid that it set up a monstrous bureaucracy to
      > control
      > > virtually every aspect of people's lives, somehow it left the
      > > potentially influential Russian Orthodox Church alone? And the
      KGB,
      > > which had a powerful motive and every opportunity to infiltrate
      the
      > MP
      > > and use it as a tool, didn't do so because...why? Was this
      beyond
      > an
      > > organization that was responsible for the destruction of
      hundreds,
      > if
      > > not thousands of churches, and supervised the annihilation of
      tens
      > of
      > > millions of people?
      > >
      > > The documents and the whistleblowers that I cited, to me, do
      > not
      > > detail anything that is shocking or surprising given what I know
      > about
      > > the way that the Soviet Union functioned. What is shocking and
      > > surprising is that there are those in the ROCOR who refuse to
      admit
      > the
      > > reality of the situation.
      > >
      > > JRS: I did not go to a bookstore. The table of contents and
      > the
      > > index are accessible on the internet.
      > >
      > > But I have been reading up on the subject for 40 years.
      > >
      > > DN: And you continue to believe that all of these documents
      > are
      > > fakes and part of some elaborate plot orchestrated by the KGB to
      > > discredit the MP? Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to,
      when
      > > actually infiltrating and using the Patriarchate for their own
      > purposes
      > > would have been so much simpler, more effective, and very much
      > within
      > > their grasp.
      > >
      > >
      > > JRS: I agree with you that it will never go away, but there is
      > > nothing they could do to "get rid of it". The reason it won't go
      > away,
      > > is that there are people who are devoted to blackening the name
      of
      > the
      > > Moscow Patriarchate.
      > >
      > >
      > > DN: The reason it won't go away, is that it's true and there
      > is
      > > a lot of evidence to prove it. I disagree that there is nothing
      > that
      > > they can do to get rid of it.
      > >
      > > I think it was our Bishop Daniel who said that in everything
      > the
      > > MP says and does, it is clear that they are not treating the
      issues
      > > with anywhere near the gravity that they deserve. Do we need to
      > break
      > > out the grainy black and white film reels showing church, after
      > church,
      > > after church blowing up and collapsing? Perhaps, a split screen
      > then,
      > > with one half showing everyone from Metropolitan Sergius to the
      > present
      > > Patriarch speaking dreadful lies about how good and loving the
      > Soviet
      > > fatherland is, and the other half with the collapsing churches,
      > sketches
      > > from the Gulag, pictures of Orthodox churches turned into public
      > > toilets, Young Pioneers parroting atheist slogans...the
      > possibilities
      > > are endless. What do you think, Father - what would someone
      > imprisoned
      > > and mercilessly tortured in the Gulag for being a faithful
      Orthodox
      > > Christian say if they were able to see Metropolitan Sergius appear
      > > before the press, as he did in 1930, and deny that there is any
      > > persecution of the Church, and equate confessors for the faith
      with
      > > common criminals? That example is only the tip of the iceberg,
      for
      > the
      > > leading figures in the Patriarchate lied time after time after
      > time.
      > >
      > > So, given this, what would be a suitable way for the
      > leadership
      > > of the MP to remove the lethal cancer that this collaboration
      > created
      > > and that is still festering in her bowels? Should the Patriarch
      > express
      > > regret in response to a question in an interview with some
      magazine?
      > > Should the MP include a sub-section in it's Social Concept
      document,
      > > stating that, theoretically, the Church should resist the state
      if
      > the
      > > state asks it to perform an immoral act? Both of these things
      > happened,
      > > but let's replay that hypothetical video with the toilet-churches
      > and
      > > the lying Patriarchs. Russia is enslaved, awash with blood and
      > riddled
      > > with piles of rubble that used to be churches, and our "leaders"
      > declare
      > > that "we are all united by our love for our Socialist motherland"
      > (Metr.
      > > Alexei (the current Patriarch) in 1975)
      > >
      > > Yes, Father, the dreadfulness of this *can* be washed away,
      > but
      > > the tears shed should match the blood that was shed while the
      > > Patriarchate sat and did nothing. I'm not only talking about the
      > blood
      > > spilled during Stalin but the blood coursing through the veins of
      > those
      > > Young Pioneers who were poisoned from a young age by the lies of
      > > Leninism. When the leadership of the Patriarchate grafted itself
      > onto
      > > the Communist State, it became responsible for every horror
      > committed by
      > > them that it did not speak out against.
      > >
      > > So, for example, if the Patriarch and the Synod of the MP
      > stand
      > > in the middle of Red Square, and prostrate themselves with tears
      > before
      > > all of Russia, past and present, for the collaboration of the
      Church
      > > with the regime, *this* would begin the cleansing process. If,
      > then,
      > > the Patriarch took off his koukoulion, and the Metropolitans their
      > > klobuks, left them there and retired to a monastery for their own
      > > personal involvement, the effect this would have on the Moscow
      > > Patriarchate, Russia, and the Orthodox Church as a whole, would be
      > > incredible. That would touch those cynical students that I knew,
      > > wherever they may be, like nothing I could have ever said. These
      > would
      > > be the actions of true hierarchs of the Church that Christ
      founded.
      > > But, of course, for this to happen, they first need to realize the
      > > supreme horror of what they and their predecessors did...
      > >
      > > In Christ,
      > > deacon Nicholas
      > >
      > >
      <http://intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/sect_16e.htm>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
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