Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Fw: burying (or not) Lenin

Expand Messages
  • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
    21 April 2006, 16:13 Debate on Lenin’s burial should not destroy Church unity - Russian Orthodox Church official Moscow, April 21, Interfax -
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 26 4:19 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      21 April 2006, 16:13

      Debate on Lenins burial should not destroy Church unity - Russian Orthodox Church official

      Moscow, April 21, Interfax - Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, is convinced that the decision to bury Lenins body should not lead to contradictions and division in society.

      If the result of this analysis (on the need to bury Lenin - IF) leads us to conclude that this action will rather contribute to the destruction of unity, then let us wait a little, Metropolitan Kirill said in an interview with Rossiyskaya gazeta published on Friday.

      He said the Church, in speaking of the need to consign Lenins body to the earth, has always emphasized that there are quite a few of those for whom it is a matter of real worship, therefore people should not be knocked out of their groove.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • DDD
      I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square. But, to put it in perspective, read this: http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm about our
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 27 6:34 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square. But, to put it in perspective, read this:

        http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm

        about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.

        The Russian Church's getting rid of Lenin's body would be something in the same magnitude of ROCOR deciding to destroy the Masonic-symbol-laden Washington Monument or the United States Capitol Building, the cornerstone of which was laid by George Washington in Masonic garb. I bet that Russia will bury Lenin before we take down the Washington Monument.

        --Dimitra

        Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
        21 April 2006, 16:13

        Debate on Lenin$B!G(Bs burial should not destroy Church unity - Russian Orthodox Church official

        Moscow, April 21, Interfax - Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, is convinced that the decision to bury Lenin$B!G(Bs body should not lead to contradictions and division in society.

        $B!F(BIf the result of this analysis (on the need to bury Lenin - IF) leads us to conclude that this action will rather contribute to the destruction of unity, then let us wait a little$B!G(B, Metropolitan Kirill said in an interview with Rossiyskaya gazeta published on Friday.

        He said the Church, in speaking of the need to consign Lenin$B!G(Bs body to the earth, $B!F(Bhas always emphasized that there are quite a few of those for whom it is a matter of real worship$B!G(B, therefore people $B!F(Bshould not be knocked out of their groove$B!G(B.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • DDD
        I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square. But, to put it in perspective, read this: http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm about our
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 27 6:34 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square. But, to put it in perspective, read this:

          http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm

          about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.

          The Russian Church's getting rid of Lenin's body would be something in the same magnitude of ROCOR deciding to destroy the Masonic-symbol-laden Washington Monument or the United States Capitol Building, the cornerstone of which was laid by George Washington in Masonic garb. I bet that Russia will bury Lenin before we take down the Washington Monument.

          --Dimitra

          Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
          21 April 2006, 16:13

          Debate on Lenin$B!G(Bs burial should not destroy Church unity - Russian Orthodox Church official

          Moscow, April 21, Interfax - Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, is convinced that the decision to bury Lenin$B!G(Bs body should not lead to contradictions and division in society.

          $B!F(BIf the result of this analysis (on the need to bury Lenin - IF) leads us to conclude that this action will rather contribute to the destruction of unity, then let us wait a little$B!G(B, Metropolitan Kirill said in an interview with Rossiyskaya gazeta published on Friday.

          He said the Church, in speaking of the need to consign Lenin$B!G(Bs body to the earth, $B!F(Bhas always emphasized that there are quite a few of those for whom it is a matter of real worship$B!G(B, therefore people $B!F(Bshould not be knocked out of their groove$B!G(B.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • diane59@charter.net
          I don t follow this. What does George Washington and America have to do with Lenin and Orthodox Russia?
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 27 8:13 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            I don't follow this. What does George Washington and America have to do with Lenin and Orthodox Russia?


            ---- DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
          • michael nikitin
            It is only proper that Lenin s church buries him. Michael N DDD wrote: I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 27 8:30 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              It is only proper that Lenin's "church" buries him.

              Michael N

              DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
              I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square. But, to put it in perspective, read this:

              http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm

              about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.

              The Russian Church's getting rid of Lenin's body would be something in the same magnitude of ROCOR deciding to destroy the Masonic-symbol-laden Washington Monument or the United States Capitol Building, the cornerstone of which was laid by George Washington in Masonic garb. I bet that Russia will bury Lenin before we take down the Washington Monument.

              --Dimitra

              Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
              21 April 2006, 16:13

              Debate on Lenin$B!G(Bs burial should not destroy Church unity - Russian Orthodox Church official

              Moscow, April 21, Interfax - Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, is convinced that the decision to bury Lenin$B!G(Bs body should not lead to contradictions and division in society.

              $B!F(BIf the result of this analysis (on the need to bury Lenin - IF) leads us to conclude that this action will rather contribute to the destruction of unity, then let us wait a little$B!G(B, Metropolitan Kirill said in an interview with Rossiyskaya gazeta published on Friday.

              He said the Church, in speaking of the need to consign Lenin$B!G(Bs body to the earth, $B!F(Bhas always emphasized that there are quite a few of those for whom it is a matter of real worship$B!G(B, therefore people $B!F(Bshould not be knocked out of their groove$B!G(B.



              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2/min or less.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • DDD
              To try to be perfectly clear, I don t think we should knee-jerk criticize the Patriarch of Russia for being judicious about the timing of burying Lenin s body.
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 27 9:04 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                To try to be perfectly clear, I don't think we should knee-jerk criticize the Patriarch of Russia for being judicious about the timing of burying Lenin's body. I'm trying to put forth a comparison to show how tremendously charged an issue it is, and to make us think how difficult it would be to accomplish. Not everyone in Russia would accept actions of the Russian Orthodox Church--just as there were revolutionary groups and movements before the Revolution who were against the Tsar'. I don't want Lenin's body to stay in Red Square, and I don't think the Patriarch does, either. But it's not like those remaining communists who still think of him as the equivalent of George Washington would be happy about the destruction of his memorial in Red Square. I'm sure there are still people over there who don't think or don't know he is evil, just as most Americans don't have a clue of George Washington's Masonic involvement--and for that matter, don't have a clue that Masonry is anti-Christian, and even Satanic. So, let me try again:

                Lenin is, no matter how warped and wrong, regarded as the founder of their country by a great number of (not necessarily Orthodox) Russians who grew up under the Communist Yoke. He is a national political figure. But to Orthodox Christians, he is bad because he was atheist = anti=Christian, and murdered millions of Orthodox Christians. Some people are looking for the Church in Russia to get rid of his body in Red Square.

                George Washington is the national political founding father of our country, the USA. But it seems he was a Mason. The Masons are an anti-Christian group, who, you will find if you look into their high sub-group, the Illuminati, actually worship the "Light-Bearer" = *Lucifer* = Satan. Didn't you read the article I included the link for (or maybe it was in a similar one) where they are praising the SNAKE in the Garden of Eden for encouraging Adam and Eve to taste the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and have human power? Masonry is no less anti-Christian than Communism. From Washington and the very atheist-dominated Supreme Court come orders to remove the Ten Commandments from all public buildings. We are headed on the way to becoming a second Soviet Union.... The article that I cited pointed out the Masonic symbolism of the Washington Monument. So I am likening it in magnitude, importance, and symbolism to Lenin's tomb -- it's an anti-Christian public political monument that in people's minds pretty much represents the country itself.
                So, if you can follow the logic here, asking the Church in Russia to get rid of Lenin's tomb is something on the magnitude of asking our ROCOR Church in America to get rid of the Washington Monument. Do you think that is going to happen? Are we not confessing the Faith if we do not lobby for the destruction of this Masonic monument?
                Yet, as I said, I bet Russia *will* bury Lenin before America takes down the Washington Monument. Russia is reviving as the Christian country that it rightly is, whereas America is becoming less and less Christian all the time. It's the whole people, not just the Church in Russia, who have to bury Lenin, (or rather, the whole people have to come into the Church once again) and when that happens, I believe a Christian Tsar will appear. Or, maybe it will be the other way around, the Tsar will come first and enable people to have the guts to get rid of Lenin's body. But here, Masonry is here to stay.....
                So what I'm saying is, in plain English, if you're not ready to take down the Washington Monument here, don't jump on the Patriarch too hard for trying to be judicious about when to take down Lenin's tomb there.
                If you don't think Masonry is as bad as communism--or rather, just another flavor of it, there's nothing I can do to make you understand this comparison. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

                Hope that helps.

                --Dimitra

                PS: Furthermore, based on America's (and France's and Britain's) opposition to Russia in the past (read the history books), one can almost say with full confidence that, if and when an Orthodox Tsar appears, the United States will fight him--especially if he unites the country, gets rid of schisms and heresies (no "freedom of religion!"), and makes Russia too strong politically for our tastes. What will we say here if we are found fighting against the one who really did take down Lenin's tomb????


                __________________________________________________________________________________
                I don't follow this. What does George Washington and America have to do with Lenin and Orthodox Russia?


                ---- DDD <dimitradd@...>wrote:


                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod


                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • antiquariu@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/27/2006 9:36:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dimitradd@comcast.net writes: http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm about our own Masonic
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 27 9:48 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 4/27/2006 9:36:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  dimitradd@... writes:

                  http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm

                  about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.





                  Again, so what? The fact that he swore a dramatic oath does not make him a
                  satanist. What a bunch of nonsense.

                  Cheers,

                  Vova H.





                  Thankyou for your translation workorder! ALS appreciates the opportunity to
                  serve. Please come visit us at our corporate headquarters in the heart of
                  Virginia's beautiful Hunt Country.

                  Sincerely,

                  Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                  Director of Operations
                  ALS, Inc!

                  "Your global language solution!"

                  Salem House
                  Marshall, VA 20115
                  1-540-364-9041
                  1-703-832-0692 24 hour fax


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • frvictor@comcast.net
                  What seems very clear to me is that Russia could have easily fallen prey to civil war and bloodshed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Had a more abrupt
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 27 11:27 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What seems very clear to me is that Russia could have easily fallen prey to civil war and bloodshed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Had a more abrupt "regime change" occured in Russia, with trials and ousting of former communists as some on this list even suggested earlier, Russia today could easily have been another Iraq.

                    Perhaps this is why the Russian Church Abroad for over 80 years never prayed for the destruction of the communists, but rather, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, prayed for: "Free our Russian Land from the cruel godless ones and their power ..., Grant peace and tranquility, love and steadfastness, and swift reconciliation to Thy people, whom Thou hast redeemed by Thy precious Blood.
                    But unto them that have departed from Thee and seek Thee not, be Thou manifest, that not one of them perish, but that all of them be saved and come to the knowledge of Thy truth, that all in harmonious oneness of mind and unceasing love may glorify Thy most holy name, O patient-hearted Lord Who art quick to forgive, unto the ages of ages. Amen."

                    Our Lord heard our prayer, and freed the Russian people from the cruel godless ones and their power, and, turned those who persecuted the Church and the Orthodox "to the knowledge of Thy truth." Former Communists now are rebuilding churches, encouraging the Orthodox education of their children and youth, and themselves partake of the Holy Gifts, as for example, President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. Other examples could go on and on....

                    The prayer: "Grant peace and tranquility, love and steadfastness, and swift reconciliation to Thy people" means in part the end of spilling of blood. If a delay in doing away with the Lenin mosuleum means a prevention of bloodshed and civil war, and a pastoral approach to those older generation who believed (and still believe) in the lies of the Soviet past so that the Russian people continue to work towards a swift reconciliation, then there is nothing anti-Orthodox in Metropolitan Kyril's statements. Rather, they are in harmony with that prayer. Clearly the will come when this question will be resolved on its own, without any effort. That is the beauty of Russia today, so many true miracles that were unimaginable tweny five years ago when we glorified the New Martyrs of Russia.

                    How can the Russian people reconcile when the two parts of the Russian Church are still divided? First the Church needs to heal Her wounds which were inflicted both from the outside and within. Healing of a division can only come when both parts seek mutual repentance.

                    In our Risen Christ,
                    Priest Victor Boldewskul


                    -------------- Original message --------------
                    From: DDD <dimitradd@...>

                    > I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square. But, to put it
                    > in perspective, read this:
                    >
                    > http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm
                    >
                    > about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.
                    >
                    > The Russian Church's getting rid of Lenin's body would be something in the same
                    > magnitude of ROCOR deciding to destroy the Masonic-symbol-laden Washington
                    > Monument or the United States Capitol Building, the cornerstone of which was
                    > laid by George Washington in Masonic garb. I bet that Russia will bury Lenin
                    > before we take down the Washington Monument.
                    >
                    > --Dimitra
                    >
                    > Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
                    > 21 April 2006, 16:13
                    >
                    > Debate on Lenin$B!G(Bs burial should not destroy Church unity - Russian Orthodox
                    > Church official
                    >
                    > Moscow, April 21, Interfax - Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad,
                    > chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, is
                    > convinced that the decision to bury Lenin$B!G(Bs body should not lead to
                    > contradictions and division in society.
                    >
                    > $B!F(BIf the result of this analysis (on the need to bury Lenin - IF) leads us
                    > to conclude that this action will rather contribute to the destruction of unity,
                    > then let us wait a little$B!G(B, Metropolitan Kirill said in an interview with
                    > Rossiyskaya gazeta published on Friday.
                    >
                    > He said the Church, in speaking of the need to consign Lenin$B!G(Bs body to the
                    > earth, $B!F(Bhas always emphasized that there are quite a few of those for whom
                    > it is a matter of real worship$B!G(B, therefore people $B!F(Bshould not be
                    > knocked out of their groove$B!G(B.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    The Taliban in their ICONOCLASTIC fanaticism destroyed centuries old Buddhist temples and intelligent people were horrified to see such barbaric ignorance.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 27 7:22 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The Taliban in their ICONOCLASTIC fanaticism destroyed centuries old
                      Buddhist temples and intelligent people were horrified to see such
                      barbaric ignorance. Lenin is indeed worthy of having his (what there
                      is of them) putrid remains mixed with garbage and dung and flushed
                      through the sewers of Moscow. Each person could think of what ever
                      demeaning and filthy way to dispose of him and none would be
                      disgusting enough to reflect his malevolent and satanic infamy. But
                      the higher ground would be to dispose of him in a calm, calculated
                      and "descent" if not compassionate manner, so that no one could rise
                      to DEFEND HIS HONOR and to RAGE AT THE CHURCH AND ORTHODOX FAITHFUL --
                      -in his name once more!!!!
                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                      <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It is only proper that Lenin's "church" buries him.
                      >
                      > Michael N
                      >
                      > DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                      > I agree that Lenin should be buried and gotten out of Red Square.
                      But, to put it in perspective, read this:
                      >
                      > http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm
                      >
                      > about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.
                      >
                      > The Russian Church's getting rid of Lenin's body would be something
                      in the same magnitude of ROCOR deciding to destroy the Masonic-symbol-
                      laden Washington Monument or the United States Capitol Building, the
                      cornerstone of which was laid by George Washington in Masonic garb. I
                      bet that Russia will bury Lenin before we take down the Washington
                      Monument.
                      >
                      > --Dimitra
                      >
                      > Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
                      > 21 April 2006, 16:13
                      >
                      > Debate on Lenin$B!G(Bs burial should not destroy Church unity -
                      Russian Orthodox Church official
                      >
                      > Moscow, April 21, Interfax - Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and
                      Kaliningrad, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for
                      External Church Relations, is convinced that the decision to bury
                      Lenin$B!G(Bs body should not lead to contradictions and division in
                      society.
                      >
                      > $B!F(BIf the result of this analysis (on the need to bury Lenin -
                      IF) leads us to conclude that this action will rather contribute to
                      the destruction of unity, then let us wait a little$B!G(B,
                      Metropolitan Kirill said in an interview with Rossiyskaya gazeta
                      published on Friday.
                      >
                      > He said the Church, in speaking of the need to consign Lenin$B!G(Bs
                      body to the earth, $B!F(Bhas always emphasized that there are quite a
                      few of those for whom it is a matter of real worship$B!G(B, therefore
                      people $B!F(Bshould not be knocked out of their groove$B!G(B.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
                      30+ countries) for 2/min or less.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • DDD
                      Christ is Risen! Sorry, you have failed to see my point. And you also fail to see the evil of Masonry (which, of course, it hides from its lower levels
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 29 11:01 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Christ is Risen!

                        Sorry, you have failed to see my point. And you also fail to see the evil of Masonry (which, of course, it hides from its lower levels anyway). Try asking a (ROCOR) priest for a blessing to join the Masons.
                        And you don't think worshipping Lucifer (Illuminati) and being on the side of the Snake in the Garden of Eden is Satanic?
                        To be plain, my point is not whether PRESENTLY Masonry APPEARS as evil as Lenin's crimes. My point is that they are BOTH evil, both anti-Christian-rooted. No one would have the guts to take down the Washington Monument in this country, but if the country should suddenly become divided with some wanting to do so, the rest of the country would protest, and there could ensue a civil war. That is the kind of thing they are facing in Russia. That is my point.
                        I was drawing a parallel with things in this country that I hoped people could understand. Many people in this country not only do not see Masonry as evil, and ultimately Satan (Lucifer)-worshipping (and therefore anti-Christian)--but, on the contrary, think it is a good thing, since it hides behind charitable works.
                        In precisely the same way, many gullible or idealistic people in Russia viewed the communist movement as a GOOD thing. It is precisely these people who would "freak out" if Lenin's body were removed. I guess in a way, by not recognizing the evil behind Masonry, you proved my point.

                        --Dimitra





                        antiquariu@... wrote:


                        In a message dated 4/27/2006 9:36:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        dimitradd@... writes:

                        http://www.classicalfree.org/masonry.htm

                        about our own Masonic First President, George Washington.





                        Again, so what? The fact that he swore a dramatic oath does not make him a
                        satanist. What a bunch of nonsense.

                        Cheers,

                        Vova H.





                        Thankyou for your translation workorder! ALS appreciates the opportunity to
                        serve. Please come visit us at our corporate headquarters in the heart of
                        Virginia's beautiful Hunt Country.

                        Sincerely,

                        Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                        Director of Operations
                        ALS, Inc!

                        "Your global language solution!"

                        Salem House
                        Marshall, VA 20115
                        1-540-364-9041
                        1-703-832-0692 24 hour fax


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • michael nikitin
                        Fr.Victor doesn t see that the cruel godless ones are still in power? If Fr.Victor means that the people are free to go to the MP, then yes they have this
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 30 10:21 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Fr.Victor doesn't see that the cruel godless ones are still in power?

                          If Fr.Victor means that the people are free to go to the MP, then yes they
                          have this choice, but the MP is the "Church" of these cruel and godless ones.

                          This pseudo-Church, as Archimandrite Konstantine of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville called the MP, was created by the Soviet regime after ROCOR.
                          Holy Metr.Philaret stated the MP was without grace.
                          B.Averky called the MP a harlot for serving with everyone. Would our hierarch's
                          ever say this about our historic Russian Church? Of course not.

                          The other Churches are not free to open, as they are in America, by a law that Pres.Putin signed.

                          Fr.Victor should explain this to the faithful..

                          Michael N



                          frvictor@... wrote:What seems very clear to me is that Russia could have easily fallen prey to civil war and bloodshed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Had a more abrupt "regime change" occured in Russia, with trials and ousting of former communists as some on this list even suggested earlier, Russia today could easily have been another Iraq.

                          Perhaps this is why the Russian Church Abroad for over 80 years never prayed for the destruction of the communists, but rather, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, prayed for: "Free our Russian Land from the cruel godless ones and their power ..., Grant peace and tranquility, love and steadfastness, and swift reconciliation to Thy people, whom Thou hast redeemed by Thy precious Blood.
                          But unto them that have departed from Thee and seek Thee not, be Thou manifest, that not one of them perish, but that all of them be saved and come to the knowledge of Thy truth, that all in harmonious oneness of mind and unceasing love may glorify Thy most holy name, O patient-hearted Lord Who art quick to forgive, unto the ages of ages. Amen."
                          ...


                          ---------------------------------
                          Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • larry most
                          CHRIST IS RISEN INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Michael, Doesn t it seem kind of strange to have Russian Church ABROAD in Russia. Why would one Bishop be in another
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 1, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            CHRIST IS RISEN INDEED HE IS RISEN
                            Dear Michael,
                            Doesn't it seem kind of strange to have Russian Church ABROAD in Russia. Why would one Bishop be in another Bishop's territory, when BOTH are Russian Orthodox. Sometimes I wonder what you are thinking.
                            That makes NO sense. (Please don't tell me how "wicked" or "uncanonical" or whatever the MP is. How do you really know, unless you lived in the ex Soviet Union.? How is it that you can make such a judgement on an entire Church?
                            Love in Christ,
                            Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                            michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote: Fr.Victor doesn't see that the cruel godless ones are still in power?

                            If Fr.Victor means that the people are free to go to the MP, then yes they
                            have this choice, but the MP is the "Church" of these cruel and godless ones.

                            This pseudo-Church, as Archimandrite Konstantine of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville called the MP, was created by the Soviet regime after ROCOR.
                            Holy Metr.Philaret stated the MP was without grace.
                            B.Averky called the MP a harlot for serving with everyone. Would our hierarch's
                            ever say this about our historic Russian Church? Of course not.

                            The other Churches are not free to open, as they are in America, by a law that Pres.Putin signed.

                            Fr.Victor should explain this to the faithful..

                            Michael N



                            frvictor@... wrote:What seems very clear to me is that Russia could have easily fallen prey to civil war and bloodshed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Had a more abrupt "regime change" occured in Russia, with trials and ousting of former communists as some on this list even suggested earlier, Russia today could easily have been another Iraq.

                            Perhaps this is why the Russian Church Abroad for over 80 years never prayed for the destruction of the communists, but rather, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, prayed for: "Free our Russian Land from the cruel godless ones and their power ..., Grant peace and tranquility, love and steadfastness, and swift reconciliation to Thy people, whom Thou hast redeemed by Thy precious Blood.
                            But unto them that have departed from Thee and seek Thee not, be Thou manifest, that not one of them perish, but that all of them be saved and come to the knowledge of Thy truth, that all in harmonious oneness of mind and unceasing love may glorify Thy most holy name, O patient-hearted Lord Who art quick to forgive, unto the ages of ages. Amen."
                            ...


                            ---------------------------------
                            Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod





                            SPONSORED LINKS
                            Jewish orthodox Orthodox Orthodox church Greek orthodox church Sect of judaism

                            ---------------------------------
                            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                            Visit your group "orthodox-synod" on the web.

                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                            ---------------------------------





                            ---------------------------------
                            Blab-away for as little as 1/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • DDD
                            Mike Nikitin wrote: The other Churches are not free to open, as they are in America, by a law that Pres.Putin signed.
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "Mike Nikitin" wrote:

                              The other Churches are not free to open, as they are in America, by
                              a law that Pres.Putin signed.
                              _____________________________________________

                              And by "other churches" you mean the ecumenist, heretical, and schismatic "churches" that you say you are against anyway? Why ever would you want them open in Russia? In the Church's history, the Emperors (Christian Roman or whatever) did not allow schismatic and heretical churches to be open, when they had anything to say about it.
                              It's time for people to realize the soviet government is gone, that the Church in Russia is free, and that there is not only no need for "catacombs" any more, but that their continued existence is actually *against* the Church's unity now.

                              --Dimitra
                            • michael nikitin
                              I believe our previous hierarch s and new Russian Martyrs who had experience with the MP and have written much about the MP joining the Soviets and falling
                              Message 14 of 15 , May 3, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I believe our previous hierarch's and new Russian Martyrs who had experience with the MP and have written much about the MP joining the Soviets and falling under the anathema that the Russian Church of St.Tikhon, which Metr.Sergius signed also.

                                I have family living there. They tell me the Bishops and Archimandrites in charge of the monasteries are all picked for their tasks. Some of the monks and priests seem to be sincere and God will judge them.

                                The reason the Church Abroad opened parishes and made bishops for Russia is because they don't recognize the MP as a Church. They opened parishes in Russia when Russia became "free".

                                Why is the MP giving autonomy for the Church Abroad in anothers territory? I thought the OCA had bishops here in North America? And they are BOTH Orthodox or maybe not?

                                Larry should ask the MP and ROCOR what they are thinking when they allow a bishop in another bishops territory, not me. As a matter of fact, the MP has it's own bishops in the territory of the OCA disregarding the stipulation they had with the OCA to not have any bishops on their territory.

                                Sad.

                                Michael N

                                larry most <larrymost2002@...> wrote: CHRIST IS RISEN INDEED HE IS RISEN
                                Dear Michael,
                                Doesn't it seem kind of strange to have Russian Church ABROAD in Russia. Why would one Bishop be in another Bishop's territory, when BOTH are Russian Orthodox. Sometimes I wonder what you are thinking.
                                That makes NO sense. (Please don't tell me how "wicked" or "uncanonical" or whatever the MP is. How do you really know, unless you lived in the ex Soviet Union.? How is it that you can make such a judgement on an entire Church?
                                Love in Christ,
                                Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                                michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote: Fr.Victor doesn't see that the cruel godless ones are still in power?

                                If Fr.Victor means that the people are free to go to the MP, then yes they
                                have this choice, but the MP is the "Church" of these cruel and godless ones.

                                This pseudo-Church, as Archimandrite Konstantine of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville called the MP, was created by the Soviet regime after ROCOR.
                                Holy Metr.Philaret stated the MP was without grace.
                                B.Averky called the MP a harlot for serving with everyone. Would our hierarch's
                                ever say this about our historic Russian Church? Of course not.

                                The other Churches are not free to open, as they are in America, by a law that Pres.Putin signed.

                                Fr.Victor should explain this to the faithful..

                                Michael N




                                ---------------------------------
                                New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Athanasios Jayne
                                The letter of Bishop Afanasiy (Sakharov) to his spiritual children: It seems to me that you have not yet solved the question of attending the (Patriarchal)
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 8, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The letter of Bishop Afanasiy (Sakharov) to his spiritual children:

                                  It seems to me that you have not yet solved the question of attending
                                  the (Patriarchal) churches. As for myself, I have settled this
                                  question without any hesitation. I remember the example of Jesus
                                  Christ Himself, who came down to abolish the Old Testament prototype
                                  divine service. Nevertheless, He, during all His life till the last
                                  moment, had participated in divine services being performed by Judaic
                                  clergymen, despite the fact that He sternly accused them. Holy
                                  Apostles had as well continued to attend the Jerusalem Temple for a
                                  long time, evidently till its very destruction in 70 A.D., even when
                                  the Christian divine service had finally been established. They had
                                  also participated in the already abolished Old Testament services and
                                  bowed their heads when High Priests or other priests blessed them in
                                  God's name. The Church of Christ is Holy and Sinless. Until the Second
                                  Coming of Christ, however, only half of Her members, those who belong
                                  to the Triumphal Church of Christ, cannot sin. The second half,
                                  though, the Church Militant on the Earth, is striving for the
                                  salvation of sinners and does not reject or drive them out. In the
                                  Earthly Church, God's Grace pours on all Her children maintaining
                                  communion with Her through the clergy of the Church endowed with Grace
                                  in the lawfully performed sacraments by lawfully ordained priests and
                                  bishops. Each member of the Earthly Church enters into real,
                                  sacramental and grace filled communion with Her and with Christ
                                  Himself only through their competent spiritual father (pravomochnogo
                                  dukhovnika) under the condition, though, that the latter is in
                                  communion with the First Hierarch, who is recognized as such, by all
                                  the First Hierarchs of all the other Orthodox Autocephalous Churches
                                  constituting (making up) in their totality the One Holy Catholic
                                  (Ecumenical/Universal) Apostolic Church. There is no other way and
                                  there can be no other way for the grace filled (blessed) unity with
                                  the Ecumenical Church and with Christ Himself to exist except through
                                  this hierarchical chain. The great hermits, even, who had lived for
                                  decades in the absolute solitude had always thought of themselves as
                                  holding onto this blessed hierarchical chain and at the first
                                  opportunity they hastened to take Holy Gifts that had been blessed by
                                  the Grace-filled servants of the Church. In the Church of Christ,
                                  Grace is outwardly pouring forth and salvation is achieved not by the
                                  clergy per se but by the Church Herself through Her clergy. The clergy
                                  are not creators of Grace - they are only dispensers of It. They are
                                  like the channels through which the Grace of God pours upon the
                                  faithful and without whom it is impossible to receive Divine Grace.
                                  Hierarchs and priests are both ordained from the ordinary, mortal and
                                  sinful laity because of there being no saints here on the Earth. The
                                  clergymen, even those leading a shameful way of life, continue to
                                  remain the dispensers of Grace until such time when the lawful Church
                                  authority withdraws from them the sacrament of the priesthood and the
                                  blessed power to dispense Divine Grace and to bring to God's altar the
                                  prayers of the faithful. For the unworthy clergymen the Lord sends His
                                  Angel to perform the Holy Sacraments. The sacraments performed by the
                                  unworthy clergyman would be for the judgment and condemnation of such
                                  clergyman as well as for the Grace-filled blessing of those who accept
                                  them with faith. There is only one circumstance of exception, and that
                                  is when a clergyman starts to openly and in public, from the church
                                  pulpit, to preach the heresy that has already been condemned by the
                                  Holy Fathers at the Ecumenical Councils. It gives not only the right
                                  but also even the obligation to every clergyman and layperson to break
                                  the relationship with such preacher despite his position in the Church
                                  hierarchy without waiting for the counciliar court. From Church
                                  history we know of many cases when unworthy persons were in high
                                  positions, or when Patriarchs were heresiarchs. We also know, that the
                                  Ecumenical Councils, being convoked to discuss and condemn the new
                                  heresy, when sending the first, second and the third invitation to
                                  those heresiarchs to come to the Council, called them to the very end
                                  as "beloved in the Lord". Then, and only then, when those being
                                  invited refused after the third invitation to come to the Council, the
                                  Council declared anathema on them. Only from that moment on, are they
                                  and their sacraments deprived of Grace. Take a look, for example, at
                                  the history of the Patriarchs of Constantinople in the 17th century.
                                  The Turkish sultans appointed the Patriarchs and they selected only
                                  those who were able to make the bigger contribution to the Sultan's
                                  treasure. Some Patriarchs held the Patriarchal title for a year, some
                                  for a few months, and some for only a few days. There were on the
                                  Patriarchal throne secret Jesuits and sympathizers of Protestantism.
                                  The Sultan used to remove one Patriarch for another only because the
                                  other promised to contribute more money to the Sultan's treasure. How
                                  fast and unexpected these changes would occur can be seen by the fact
                                  that from 1598 to 1654 there were 54 Patriarchs. What a temptation to
                                  the faithful! The life of the Greek Christians at that time was of one
                                  continuous suffering after another. Nevertheless, they did not
                                  separate themselves from their pastors and bishops. They also did not
                                  avoid attending the churches where the names of Patriarchs, appointed
                                  by the Moslem Sultan, were commemorated. Among the Patriarchs of that
                                  time was St. Athanasius Patelarius who had been appointed three times
                                  to the Patriarchal throne after paying each time the appropriate
                                  amount of money to the Sultan's treasure. He reposed in the Lord in
                                  Lubna, Russia and was canonized as a Saint. Also, what a temptation to
                                  the Orthodox Russian people was czar Peter the First's associate, the
                                  head of the Synod, archbishop Theophan Prokopovich, a drunkard and a
                                  womanizer. His tempting behavior could have driven some zealots into
                                  schism. Nonetheless, it had not been the schismatics, but those, who
                                  prayed in the churches where the archbishop Theophan's name was
                                  commemorated, who had remained in the Orthodox Church and received
                                  Grace and Blessings. There are many temptations in our days as well.
                                  And despite of all the temptations we do not have any valid right to
                                  avoid being in communion with the clergy that are in the canonical
                                  relationship with Patriarch Aleksiy. The current status of the church
                                  administration absolutely does not look like the one when the affairs
                                  of the Russian Church had been administered by Metropolitan Sergiy as
                                  a deputy to Metropolitan Peter and by his (the latter's) order
                                  (commission). When Metropolitan Sergiy declared that his authority had
                                  arisen from Metropolitan Peter's authority, and that he, Metropolitan
                                  Sergiy, was totally dependent on Metropolitan Peter, - then all of us
                                  recognized Metropolitan Sergiy as a lawful leader of the Russian
                                  Orthodox Church of which the first Hierarch still remained
                                  Metropolitan Peter. Later though Metropolitan Sergiy openly declared,
                                  as it was stated in the Journal of Moscow Patriarchate (1933, #1, p.3)
                                  that he, "as a deputy of Metropolitan Peter, had not only the
                                  temporary authority of the First Hierarch but the Patriarchal Power as
                                  well". He also declared that Metropolitan Peter, our lawful First
                                  Hierarch, did not have the right "to interfere into the church
                                  administration or to even fix the mistakes of his deputy". As a result
                                  of this, a number of archipastors, including myself, considered that
                                  such appropriation by Metropolitan Sergiy of all the authority of our
                                  lawful First Hierarch, Metropolitan Peter, while he was still alive,
                                  released the Orthodox faithful from the subordination to Metropolitan
                                  Sergiy and to his Synod. I sincerely stated this in my letter to
                                  Metropolitan Sergiy after my return from exile in December 1933.
                                  Having refused to participate in any church work under Metropolitan
                                  Sergiy's leadership, I nevertheless did not avoid from attending the
                                  churches in which the clergy subordinated to Metropolitan Sergiy
                                  conducted the divine services. I considered and still consider the
                                  harsh abusive judgments about so called "Sergianist" churches and
                                  about the divine services performed in them as "the blasphemy against
                                  the Holy Spirit". The true zeal for the faith cannot be combined with
                                  anger and malice. Where there is a malice and anger, there is no
                                  Christ. There is only the inspiration of the dark evil powers. The
                                  Christian zeal should be with love, maybe with grief, and even with
                                  wrath, - but without sin ("be angry but do not sin"). The malice
                                  (anger) is one of the greatest sins. It is unforgivable sin, it is
                                  "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", the Spirit of Love and the
                                  Spirit of Grace. Metropolitan Kirill, the most ardent vladyka, while
                                  admitting non-attendance of the Sergiy's churches as a way of protest,
                                  nevertheless, condemned the abuses of the injudicious and unwise
                                  zealots. He said that he himself, in case of mortal need, would
                                  confess and take a communion from a Sergian priest. At the present
                                  time, the state of Church affairs is absolutely different from the way
                                  it used to be under Metropolitan Sergiy. Metropolitan Peter, of
                                  course, is no longer alive. Nobody among us, neither laypeople, nor
                                  priests, nor even bishops - but only the first Hierarch of the
                                  Autocephalous Russian Church, can be in communion with the Ecumenical
                                  Orthodox Church. Those who do not recognize their First Hierarch
                                  remain outside of the Church. Let the Lord save us from this! There is
                                  no other First Hierarch in the Russian Church except Patriarch
                                  Aleksiy. The all Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs recognize him, as such.
                                  All Russian bishops recognize him. And I do not dare to separate
                                  myself from him either. Now, there are no commemorating and
                                  non-commemorating parishes. It was possible before, as a way of
                                  protest, not to attend the churches where the name of the lawful First
                                  Hierarch and the name of his deputy both together were commemorated.
                                  Now, the name of the Russian First Hierarch Aleksiy is commemorated
                                  everywhere. Maybe there is something in Patriarch Aleksiy's activities
                                  that tempts, disturbs and makes some zealots to be concerned, but none
                                  of these things deprive him or his subordinated clergy of Grace.
                                  Patriarch Aleksiy and his associates do not preach any heresy
                                  condemned by the Fathers of the Church. According to the Church's
                                  Canons, this is the only valid reason to break communion even with
                                  Patriarch without waiting for a Church Court. No lawful supreme
                                  hierarchical authority has condemned Patriarch Aleksiy. So, I cannot
                                  say, nor do I have right to say that he is graceless and that the
                                  mysteries performed by him and his clergy are not real. This is why,
                                  when in 1945, while still in prison, I and those priests with me, who
                                  did not commemorate Metropolitan Sergiy, after finding out about the
                                  election and intronization of Patriarch Aleksiy, unanimously agreed,
                                  that since there was no other lawful First Hierarch of the Russian
                                  Orthodox Church except Patriarch Aleksiy, who was recognized by all
                                  the Ecumenical Patriarchs, to commemorate him in our prayers as our
                                  Patriarch. And since that day, I continue to do so without any
                                  hesitation. In regards to all the activities of the Patriarch and
                                  Patriarchate that tempt and bother the zealous ones, - it all sits on
                                  the Patriarch's conscience and he will answer to the Lord for all
                                  that. It is really scary to deprive ourselves of the Grace of the Holy
                                  Mysteries just because of something that tempts and bothers us, which
                                  in reality is often totally different from what it seems. So let us
                                  not separate ourselves from the Church, let us heartily pray to the
                                  Lord that He would make Patriarch Aleksiy wiser and that He would help
                                  him and all those at the Church helm to rightfully divide the word of
                                  truth. Let us also pray to the Lord that He would teach and edify us
                                  to behave in such a way, that we would not act against our
                                  consciences, that we would not sin against the unity of the Church,
                                  and that we would stay away from the multiplying of temptations in the
                                  Church. I call down God's blessing upon you. Save yourselves in the
                                  Lord. Prayfully yours, bishop Afanasiy. 9/22 May, 1955
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.