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Rocor Autonomy will be on the model of UOC/MP?

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  • isbnnbsi
    Fr. John Shaw confirms that Rocor will be subordinate to the hierarchy of the Moscow Patriarchate in all critical matters when he says that the autonomy Rocor
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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      Fr. John Shaw confirms that Rocor will be subordinate to the
      hierarchy of the Moscow Patriarchate in all critical matters when he
      says that the autonomy Rocor will enjoy will be similar to the
      autonomy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church/MP. I have been living in
      Ukraine for more than 2 years. The autonomy experienced here is in
      name only. It is nominal. A good example of the subordination of
      UOC/MP occurred during the presidential elections here in 2004. The
      position of the Kremlin during those elections was sharply in favor
      of Mr. Yanukovich. The activities of the UOC/MP were strongly in
      favor of Mr. Yanukovich. These activities included using church
      grounds to distribute pro-Yanukovich material, parishioners in
      Donetsk being threatened with not being permitted to Commune for a
      period of time if they did not vote for Yanukovich, and politically
      motivated sermons. The Archbishop of Kirovograd made a public
      statement in which he said that the Mother of God appeared to him
      several times telling him that Yanukovich would be President. The
      Metropolitan of Donetsk was one of those who were on a podium at a
      conference in Severo-Donetsk which protested the fact that Mr.
      Yanukovich was not inaugurated as President following the fraudulent
      second round of presidential elections. The behavior of the church
      here was such (so out of line with Orthodox principles) that Marat
      Gelman, a Russian political advisor to Yanukovich, said publicly
      that the MP -- he made no distinction between the UOC/MP and MP --
      had lost substantial legitimacy in Ukraine. Needless to say, these
      types of activities by the UOC/MP are blatant examples of Sergianism.
      That is the type of "autonomy" that may well be in store for Rocor.
    • frraphver
      Hmmm- I wonder about us in Canada. Will the MP send each of our parishes registered letters telling us whom we have to vote for? How about in the USA? I can
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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        Hmmm- I wonder about us in Canada.
        Will the MP send each of our parishes registered letters telling us
        whom we have to vote for?

        How about in the USA? I can see it now- thousands of rocor
        parishioners voting for a certain candidate after hearing a sermon
        from the amvon by their priest telling them who to vote for. Doing the
        bidding of their Russian masters no doubt.

        In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "isbnnbsi" <isbnnbsi@...> wrote:
        >
        > Fr. John Shaw confirms that Rocor will be subordinate to the
        > hierarchy of the Moscow Patriarchate in all critical matters when he
        > says that the autonomy Rocor will enjoy will be similar to the
        > autonomy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church/MP. I have been living in
        > Ukraine for more than 2 years. The autonomy experienced here is in
        > name only. It is nominal. A good example of the subordination of
        > UOC/MP occurred during the presidential elections here in 2004. The
        > position of the Kremlin during those elections was sharply in favor
        > of Mr. Yanukovich. The activities of the UOC/MP were strongly in
        > favor of Mr. Yanukovich. These activities included using church
        > grounds to distribute pro-Yanukovich material, parishioners in
        > Donetsk being threatened with not being permitted to Commune for a
        > period of time if they did not vote for Yanukovich, and politically
        > motivated sermons. The Archbishop of Kirovograd made a public
        > statement in which he said that the Mother of God appeared to him
        > several times telling him that Yanukovich would be President. The
        > Metropolitan of Donetsk was one of those who were on a podium at a
        > conference in Severo-Donetsk which protested the fact that Mr.
        > Yanukovich was not inaugurated as President following the fraudulent
        > second round of presidential elections. The behavior of the church
        > here was such (so out of line with Orthodox principles) that Marat
        > Gelman, a Russian political advisor to Yanukovich, said publicly
        > that the MP -- he made no distinction between the UOC/MP and MP --
        > had lost substantial legitimacy in Ukraine. Needless to say, these
        > types of activities by the UOC/MP are blatant examples of Sergianism.
        > That is the type of "autonomy" that may well be in store for Rocor.
        >
      • Protopriest David Moser
        ... Not possible. That would violate the NPO (Non Profit Organizations) regulations under which most parishes are organized and they would then be subject to
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:

          > parishioners voting for a certain candidate after hearing a sermon
          > from the amvon by their priest telling them who to vote for.

          Not possible. That would violate the NPO (Non Profit Organizations)
          regulations under which most parishes are organized and they would
          then be subject to all kinds of federal and state regulations and
          penalties - most notably losing their tax exempt status.

          I must say that the amount of panic mongering that is going on
          certainly belies the emptiness of any real substance in the arguements
          of those who oppose reconciliation between ROCOR and the MP. Come on
          folks if you have a *real* arguement, please present it - but in the
          past year of reading these lists and paying particular attention to
          the issue, I have heard very little that has more substance than
          shouting the same thing over and over or trying to induce mindless
          panic so that like lemmings we can all run off the cliff together or
          saying things so ridiculous that no one can possibly believe them. I
          will admit I have heard one or two issues that had substance and
          thanks be to God the issues raised by those arguements were found to
          have merit by the committees and so became part of the discussions.
          But most of this poppy-cock is nothing but empty wind (and noisy wind
          at that).

          Protopriest David Moser
          St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
          Boise, ID
          email: moserd@...
          homilies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/
          ask Fr David: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frd_private/
        • Gilbert Gamboa
          There is a famous saying that goes “If you can’t convince them, confuse them…” We believe rumour mongers are actively at work within the community
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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            There is a famous saying that goes “If you can’t convince them, confuse them…” We believe rumour mongers are actively at work within the community trying to confuse you. They take advantage of your innocence and try to manipulate the facts. You have all the resources at your finger tips so judge everything up with facts. Weigh up all Christian discussions with the Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16)






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          • larry most
            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Father, In all of my years as Orthodox I have NEVER EVER heard a sermon or even a suggestion on how to vote.
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 5, 2006
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              GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
              Dear Father,
              In all of my years as Orthodox I have NEVER EVER heard
              a sermon or even a suggestion on how to vote. Maybe I
              was just lucky. I didn't think that that was done in
              our Church.
              Love in Christ,
              Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

              --- frraphver <frraphver@...> wrote:

              > Hmmm- I wonder about us in Canada.
              > Will the MP send each of our parishes registered
              > letters telling us
              > whom we have to vote for?
              >
              > How about in the USA? I can see it now- thousands of
              > rocor
              > parishioners voting for a certain candidate after
              > hearing a sermon
              > from the amvon by their priest telling them who to
              > vote for. Doing the
              > bidding of their Russian masters no doubt.
              >
              > In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "isbnnbsi"
              > <isbnnbsi@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Fr. John Shaw confirms that Rocor will be
              > subordinate to the
              > > hierarchy of the Moscow Patriarchate in all
              > critical matters when he
              > > says that the autonomy Rocor will enjoy will be
              > similar to the
              > > autonomy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church/MP. I
              > have been living in
              > > Ukraine for more than 2 years. The autonomy
              > experienced here is in
              > > name only. It is nominal. A good example of the
              > subordination of
              > > UOC/MP occurred during the presidential elections
              > here in 2004. The
              > > position of the Kremlin during those elections was
              > sharply in favor
              > > of Mr. Yanukovich. The activities of the UOC/MP
              > were strongly in
              > > favor of Mr. Yanukovich. These activities included
              > using church
              > > grounds to distribute pro-Yanukovich material,
              > parishioners in
              > > Donetsk being threatened with not being permitted
              > to Commune for a
              > > period of time if they did not vote for
              > Yanukovich, and politically
              > > motivated sermons. The Archbishop of Kirovograd
              > made a public
              > > statement in which he said that the Mother of God
              > appeared to him
              > > several times telling him that Yanukovich would be
              > President. The
              > > Metropolitan of Donetsk was one of those who were
              > on a podium at a
              > > conference in Severo-Donetsk which protested the
              > fact that Mr.
              > > Yanukovich was not inaugurated as President
              > following the fraudulent
              > > second round of presidential elections. The
              > behavior of the church
              > > here was such (so out of line with Orthodox
              > principles) that Marat
              > > Gelman, a Russian political advisor to Yanukovich,
              > said publicly
              > > that the MP -- he made no distinction between the
              > UOC/MP and MP --
              > > had lost substantial legitimacy in Ukraine.
              > Needless to say, these
              > > types of activities by the UOC/MP are blatant
              > examples of Sergianism.
              > > That is the type of "autonomy" that may well be in
              > store for Rocor.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • michael nikitin
              Many valid points were given by our previous hierarch s and Synod, but unfortunately are brushed away. Protopriest Alexander Lebedeff stated the MP was created
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 5, 2006
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                Many valid points were given by our previous hierarch's and Synod, but unfortunately are brushed away.

                Protopriest Alexander Lebedeff stated the MP was created by Stalin after ROCOR so how can it be a part of ROCOR? And they will be telling us what bishops we will have?
                No thanks!

                Michael N

                Protopriest David Moser <moserd@...> wrote:
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:

                > parishioners voting for a certain candidate after hearing a sermon
                > from the amvon by their priest telling them who to vote for.

                Not possible. That would violate the NPO (Non Profit Organizations)
                regulations under which most parishes are organized and they would
                then be subject to all kinds of federal and state regulations and
                penalties - most notably losing their tax exempt status.

                I must say that the amount of panic mongering that is going on
                certainly belies the emptiness of any real substance in the arguements
                of those who oppose reconciliation between ROCOR and the MP. Come on
                folks if you have a *real* arguement, please present it - but in the
                past year of reading these lists and paying particular attention to
                the issue, I have heard very little that has more substance than
                shouting the same thing over and over or trying to induce mindless
                panic so that like lemmings we can all run off the cliff together or
                saying things so ridiculous that no one can possibly believe them. I
                will admit I have heard one or two issues that had substance and
                thanks be to God the issues raised by those arguements were found to
                have merit by the committees and so became part of the discussions.
                But most of this poppy-cock is nothing but empty wind (and noisy wind
                at that).

                Protopriest David Moser
                St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                Boise, ID
                email: moserd@...
                homilies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/
                ask Fr David: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frd_private/



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              • frraphver
                I didn t mean this seriously. I guess this is an example of what you could call Candian humour. In christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack--- In
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 5, 2006
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                  I didn't mean this seriously. I guess this is an example of what you
                  could call Candian humour.

                  In christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
                  larry most <larrymost2002@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                  > Dear Father,
                  > In all of my years as Orthodox I have NEVER EVER heard
                  > a sermon or even a suggestion on how to vote. Maybe I
                  > was just lucky. I didn't think that that was done in
                  > our Church.
                  > Love in Christ,
                  > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                  >
                  > --- frraphver <frraphver@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hmmm- I wonder about us in Canada.
                  > > Will the MP send each of our parishes registered
                  > > letters telling us
                  > > whom we have to vote for?
                  > >
                  > > How about in the USA? I can see it now- thousands of
                  > > rocor
                  > > parishioners voting for a certain candidate after
                  > > hearing a sermon
                  > > from the amvon by their priest telling them who to
                  > > vote for. Doing the
                  > > bidding of their Russian masters no doubt.
                  > >
                  > > In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                  > >
                  > >
                • larry most
                  GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Father, I m sorry,I just didn t get it. (And to think of all the times that I ve spent in Canada. When we lived
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 5, 2006
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                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                    Dear Father,
                    I'm sorry,I just didn't get it. (And to think of all
                    the times that I've spent in Canada. When we lived in
                    the Lower Penninsula of Michigan, we were always
                    coming to Canada. My first stop "Tim Horton's" for
                    some GOOD coffee.
                    Love in Christ,
                    Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                    --- frraphver <frraphver@...> wrote:

                    > I didn't mean this seriously. I guess this is an
                    > example of what you
                    > could call Candian humour.
                    >
                    > In christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack--- In
                    > orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
                    > larry most <larrymost2002@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                    > > Dear Father,
                    > > In all of my years as Orthodox I have NEVER EVER
                    > heard
                    > > a sermon or even a suggestion on how to vote.
                    > Maybe I
                    > > was just lucky. I didn't think that that was done
                    > in
                    > > our Church.
                    > > Love in Christ,
                    > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                    > >
                    > > --- frraphver <frraphver@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Hmmm- I wonder about us in Canada.
                    > > > Will the MP send each of our parishes registered
                    > > > letters telling us
                    > > > whom we have to vote for?
                    > > >
                    > > > How about in the USA? I can see it now-
                    > thousands of
                    > > > rocor
                    > > > parishioners voting for a certain candidate
                    > after
                    > > > hearing a sermon
                    > > > from the amvon by their priest telling them who
                    > to
                    > > > vote for. Doing the
                    > > > bidding of their Russian masters no doubt.
                    > > >
                    > > > In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • frraphver
                    Tim Horton s is such a Canadian institution that it really has come to symbolise our mentality. Something along the lines of, sit any two or more people down
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 6, 2006
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                      Tim Horton's is such a Canadian institution that it really has come to
                      symbolise our mentality. Something along the lines of, "sit any two or
                      more people down in a non-confrontational environment around coffee &
                      doughnuts, and they'll come to an agreement within an hour."

                      If the negotiating committees had been meeting at Tim Horton's they'd
                      have come out with a final arrangement in pretty short order a few
                      kilos heavier (sorry we're metric in Canada) with complimentary hockey
                      sticks in hand. Probably the final photo would feature Wayne Gretsky
                      standing smiling among them.

                      In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most <larrymost2002@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                      > Dear Father,
                      > I'm sorry,I just didn't get it. (And to think of all
                      > the times that I've spent in Canada. When we lived in
                      > the Lower Penninsula of Michigan, we were always
                      > coming to Canada. My first stop "Tim Horton's" for
                      > some GOOD coffee.
                      > Love in Christ,
                      > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                      >
                      > --- frraphver <frraphver@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I didn't mean this seriously. I guess this is an
                      > > example of what you
                      > > could call Candian humour.
                      > >
                      > > In christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack--- In
                      >
                      >
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