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Re: What the ROCOR-bashers want

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  • Fr. Alex Kotar
    MP s approval of ROCOR s bishops is necessary due to the provisions that ROCOR bishops would particiapte in MP s Synods and Bishop s Councils (while no MP
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 4, 2006
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      MP's approval of ROCOR's bishops is necessary due to the provisions
      that ROCOR bishops would particiapte in MP's Synods and Bishop's
      Councils (while no MP bishops would participate in ROCOR's Synods
      and Councils). A candidate can only be rejected on canonical
      grounds, i.e. if the candidate is canonically unsuitable for the
      position in the first place.

      One can love someone or something so much as to sufficate it and
      squeeze all the life out of it. It would not take a long search to
      find examples of parents who so loved their children that they
      completely destroyed the child's will and the child became unable to
      function as a person. It seems that some love ROCOR so much that
      they would like to stifle its natural life so that it would become
      like some of the progeny that it unfortunately spawned, i.e. the old
      calendarist sectarians, the Suzdal schism and ROCIE. Focus on and
      love the 'Orthodox' as opposed to the 'Outside' in ROCOR.

      Fr. Alex



      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
      <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Soviets picked the MP's hierarchy and now this Soviet picked
      > Patriarch will approve all our first hierarch's of ROCOR. The MP
      not only received recognition from ROCOR, but will have to approve
      the first hierarch. If the first
      > hierarch is not to their liking they will not approve him.
      >
      > I don't suppose Fr.John will anticipate any infractions as he
      will be
      > one in spirit with those who will choose his leader. The
      Metropolitan
      > of ROCOR who will have to be approved by the MP. He will owe his
      > fierst hierarchy to the Patriarch of the MP and will never leave
      the MP for any infraction. This will be the New ROCOR created by
      the MP.
      >
      > Fr.John, I love ROCOR, and defend her against those who blindly
      lead her to
      > be depended on those who say they are her friends, but steal her
      monasteries
      > in Jerusalem and are in the ecumenistic organization WCC. These
      robbers who you defend.
      >
      > I defend ROCOR, Fr.John defends the MP.
      >
      > Michael N
      >
      >
      > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: Regarding:
      >
      > > 1) The top brass of communists were not prosecuted as were
      the Nazi's.
      > > They still occupy Russia under a different name which is
      convenient
      > > because a change of a name fools many into believeing
      things have changed.
      > > If Fr.John changed his name to Fr.Igor, he would be the same
      Fr.John under a
      > > different name.
      >
      > JRS: Of course, Russia was not a conquered country, as was
      Germany.
      >
      > But after the breakup of the Soviet Union, the communist party
      was outlawed for a time. It
      > still exists (headed by Gennady Ziuganov, who is an Orthodox
      Christian, despite calling
      > himself a communist).
      >
      > > 2) When ROCOR joins the MP, the Bishops of ROCOR will
      have to be approved by the
      > MP. ROCOR will be dependent on the MP for it's Hierarchy.
      ROCOR's hierarch's will be run by
      > the MP. They certainly will not approve a bishop who doesn't
      agree with them.
      >
      > JRS: No. ROCOR will be (like the Church in the Ukraine, for
      instance) completely autonomous,
      > but the Patriarch is to approve the next Metropolitan. Bishops
      will not have to be approved.
      >
      > > 3) Once ROCOR joins the MP and then leaves because of some
      infraction, they will be
      > labelled schismatics. Just as ROCOR labels those who leave
      them. ROCOR will never be
      > trusted as it had been under it's previous hierarch's.
      >
      > JRS: I do not anticipate there will be any "infraction".
      >
      > But as for "trusting ROCOR", her attackers (I believe Michael
      Nikitin falls in that category, too)
      > have been trying to undermine all trust in our hierarchy for a
      very long time.
      >
      > > 4) How can we trust our bishops when they don't trust the
      MP,
      >
      > JRS: Are they really "your" bishops? Somehow I don't get that
      impression...
      >
      > > 6) We are not Roman Catholics ,that we believe everything
      our bishops do and say.
      > Bishops are human and can make mistakes, not to mention
      influenced by their position. God
      > gave us the gift of discernment to use in situations like these.
      >
      > JRS: Yes, God gave the gift of discernment; but Satan's input
      lies in disinformation and
      > character assassination.
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Blab-away for as little as 1ยข/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using
      Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Rd. David-Constantine Wright
      ... OK, I m confused now. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff has said that ROCOR a internal life would be completely independent, yet Fr. Alex now says that after the
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 8, 2006
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        --- "Fr. Alex Kotar" <fralex4@...> wrote:

        > MP's approval of ROCOR's bishops is necessary due to the provisions
        > that ROCOR bishops would particiapte in MP's Synods and Bishop's
        > Councils (while no MP bishops would participate in ROCOR's Synods

        OK, I'm confused now. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff has said that ROCOR'a
        internal life would be completely independent, yet Fr. Alex now says
        that after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's bishops... I
        would assume that means that the MP will have to give its approval for
        all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
        elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.

        Which is it? A simple answer, please.

        In Christ,
        Rd. David-Constantine

        +-------------------------------------------------------------+
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      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: If there is ecclesiastical reconciliation at the present time, clearly that would involve recognition of all ROCOR bishops by the MP, and of all MP
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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          Rd. Constantine wrote:

          > after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's bishops... I
          > would assume that means that the MP will have to give its approval for
          > all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
          > elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.
          >
          > Which is it? A simple answer, please.

          JRS: If there is ecclesiastical reconciliation at the present time, clearly that would involve
          recognition of all ROCOR bishops by the MP, and of all MP bishops by ROCOR.

          However, in the future, it would appear that bishops-elect would first be approved as
          Orthodox in faith and canonically acceptable, by the Patriarchate.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Vladimir Kozyreff
          Dear Father John, Bishops-elect would first be approved as Orthodox in faith and canonically acceptable, by the Patriarchate . In doing so, would the MP act
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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            Dear Father John,



            "Bishops-elect would first be approved as Orthodox in faith and canonically
            acceptable, by the Patriarchate".



            In doing so, would the MP act as mother Church or as sister Church?



            Do you still hold that the contemplated unia would be a "cessation of
            disunion without changing of allegiance"? Which allegiance is it going to
            be?



            In Christ,



            Vladimir Kozyreff



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>; <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 11:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: What the ROCOR-bashers want


            > Rd. Constantine wrote:
            >
            >> after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's bishops... I
            >> would assume that means that the MP will have to give its approval for
            >> all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
            >> elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.
            >>
            >> Which is it? A simple answer, please.
            >
            > JRS: If there is ecclesiastical reconciliation at the present time,
            > clearly that would involve
            > recognition of all ROCOR bishops by the MP, and of all MP bishops by
            > ROCOR.
            >
            > However, in the future, it would appear that bishops-elect would first be
            > approved as
            > Orthodox in faith and canonically acceptable, by the Patriarchate.
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • David-Constantine Wright
            ... I appreciate your making that clear. In Christ, Rd. David-Constantine +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
              <vrevjrs@...> wrote:

              >However, in the future, it would appear that bishops-elect would
              >first be approved as Orthodox in faith and canonically acceptable, by
              >the Patriarchate.

              I appreciate your making that clear.

              In Christ,
              Rd. David-Constantine

              +-------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@... |
              | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
              | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
              | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
              +-------------------------------------------------------------+
            • frvictor@comcast.net
              This is the first time I ever heard of this. The only question as far as I read is the confirmation of the First Hieararch, as far I as know. I am sure this
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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                This is the first time I ever heard of this. The only question as far as I read is the confirmation of the First Hieararch, as far I as know. I am sure this will be made clear by the report of our commission at the sobor.
                Priest Victor Boldewskul

                -------------- Original message --------------
                From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>

                > Rd. Constantine wrote:
                >
                > > after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's bishops... I
                > > would assume that means that the MP will have to give its approval for
                > > all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
                > > elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.
                > >
                > > Which is it? A simple answer, please.
                >
                > JRS: If there is ecclesiastical reconciliation at the present time, clearly that
                > would involve
                > recognition of all ROCOR bishops by the MP, and of all MP bishops by ROCOR.
                >
                > However, in the future, it would appear that bishops-elect would first be
                > approved as
                > Orthodox in faith and canonically acceptable, by the Patriarchate.
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... Church? JRS: I don;t recall anyone saying that the MP would become a sister Church . The need for the approval is because the ROCOR bishops would take
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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                  Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                  > In doing so [approving potential bishops], would the MP act as mother Church or as sister
                  Church?

                  JRS: I don;t recall anyone saying that the MP would become a "sister Church".

                  The need for the approval is because the ROCOR bishops would take part in meetings of the
                  Moscow Synod (without MP bishops taking part in the ROCOR Synod).

                  So on that basis, ROCOR would have a voice in governing the Moscow Patriarchate. That is
                  why the Patriarchate (or the Patriarch) would need to approve.

                  > Do you still hold that the contemplated unia would be a "cessation of
                  > disunion without changing of allegiance"? Which allegiance is it going to
                  > be?

                  JRS: I said something like that several months ago. If I wrote "allegiance", it might better be
                  put, "without change of administration" (of ROCOR).

                  How would you define our "allegiance" up to now?

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  As I understand it: Individual Bishops will not be approved by their Synod, the Chief Hierarch would be subject to rejection by their Synod or ONLY on
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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                    As I understand it: Individual Bishops will not be approved by their
                    Synod, the Chief Hierarch would be subject to rejection by their
                    Synod or ONLY on canonical grounds. They would not have their Bishops
                    in our Synod of Bishops, but ours would (probably by rotation) be
                    members of their Holy Synod. Father Alexander L. may correct me if I
                    am grossly in error.
                    Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rd. David-Constantine Wright"
                    <constantinewright@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- "Fr. Alex Kotar" <fralex4@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > MP's approval of ROCOR's bishops is necessary due to the
                    provisions
                    > > that ROCOR bishops would particiapte in MP's Synods and Bishop's
                    > > Councils (while no MP bishops would participate in ROCOR's Synods
                    >
                    > OK, I'm confused now. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff has said that ROCOR'a
                    > internal life would be completely independent, yet Fr. Alex now says
                    > that after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's bishops...
                    I
                    > would assume that means that the MP will have to give its approval
                    for
                    > all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
                    > elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.
                    >
                    > Which is it? A simple answer, please.
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    > Rd. David-Constantine
                    >
                    > +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                    > | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@... |
                    > | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
                    > | OR http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright |
                    > | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
                    > | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
                    > +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
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                  • Vladimir Kozyreff
                    Dear Father Stefan, There are no treaties or contracts in the Church. The mother Church can abrogate the autonomy of an autonomous Church as she pleases,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
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                      Dear Father Stefan,

                      There are no treaties or contracts in the Church. The mother Church can
                      abrogate the autonomy of an autonomous Church as she pleases, according to
                      the canons.

                      For New ROCOR, the very desire to remain autonomous at all costs is
                      unwarranted, if she considers the MP as the mother Church. You do not
                      negotiate with the mother Church.

                      Father Alexander Lebedeff is certainly not "impartial" as far as the unia is
                      concerned.

                      In Christ,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:48 AM
                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: What the ROCOR-bashers want


                      > As I understand it: Individual Bishops will not be approved by their
                      > Synod, the Chief Hierarch would be subject to rejection by their
                      > Synod or ONLY on canonical grounds. They would not have their Bishops
                      > in our Synod of Bishops, but ours would (probably by rotation) be
                      > members of their Holy Synod. Father Alexander L. may correct me if I
                      > am grossly in error.
                      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rd. David-Constantine Wright"
                      > <constantinewright@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> --- "Fr. Alex Kotar" <fralex4@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > MP's approval of ROCOR's bishops is necessary due to the
                      > provisions
                      >> > that ROCOR bishops would particiapte in MP's Synods and Bishop's
                      >> > Councils (while no MP bishops would participate in ROCOR's Synods
                      >>
                      >> OK, I'm confused now. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff has said that ROCOR'a
                      >> internal life would be completely independent, yet Fr. Alex now says
                      >> that after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's bishops...
                      > I
                      >> would assume that means that the MP will have to give its approval
                      > for
                      >> all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
                      >> elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.
                      >>
                      >> Which is it? A simple answer, please.
                      >>
                      >> In Christ,
                      >> Rd. David-Constantine
                      >>
                      >> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >> | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@... |
                      >> | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
                      >> | OR http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright |
                      >> | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
                      >> | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
                      >> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >>
                      >> __________________________________________________
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                      >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      Dear Vladimir Kozyreff, Every clergy who ever entered the body of the Church Abroad from any other so called jurisdiction has de facto negotiated his entry.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 10, 2006
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                        Dear Vladimir Kozyreff,

                        Every clergy who ever entered the body of the Church Abroad from any
                        other so called jurisdiction has de facto negotiated his entry. When
                        a group enters they most certainly make agreements as to when, how
                        and under what understanding the entrance (or con-celebrating) will
                        take place, it is in our realm impossible otherwise.

                        The All-Diaspora Sobor will have representative membership from every
                        corner of the "Church Abroad World" and you can be assured that there
                        will be every degree of pro and con opinions expressed and debated to
                        give our RULING BISHOPS their responsible overview of the hearts, the
                        souls and the consciences of their flock. In the end they will make
                        their decision, not on majority rule, or dictatorial edit, but
                        through the REVELATION AND GUIDANCE of the Holy Spirit to the healing
                        growth and SALVATION of those in their SPIRITUAL CARE, whether
                        those "guided sheep" realize soberly what is best for them or
                        ignorantly as unfettered goats stray disobediently away.

                        You have left the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad; you abandoned her
                        at the moment that according to your own understanding of the
                        historic moment, she would have needed you most. She patiently awaits
                        your return through confession and repentance, but while you are OUT,
                        your personal opinions on her internal matters are, unfortunately for
                        you, in fact, moot.

                        Respectfully,
                        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Kozyreff"
                        <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Father Stefan,
                        >
                        > There are no treaties or contracts in the Church. The mother Church
                        can
                        > abrogate the autonomy of an autonomous Church as she pleases,
                        according to
                        > the canons.
                        >
                        > For New ROCOR, the very desire to remain autonomous at all costs is
                        > unwarranted, if she considers the MP as the mother Church. You do
                        not
                        > negotiate with the mother Church.
                        >
                        > Father Alexander Lebedeff is certainly not "impartial" as far as
                        the unia is
                        > concerned.
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        >
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:48 AM
                        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: What the ROCOR-bashers want
                        >
                        >
                        > > As I understand it: Individual Bishops will not be approved by
                        their
                        > > Synod, the Chief Hierarch would be subject to rejection by their
                        > > Synod or ONLY on canonical grounds. They would not have their
                        Bishops
                        > > in our Synod of Bishops, but ours would (probably by rotation) be
                        > > members of their Holy Synod. Father Alexander L. may correct me
                        if I
                        > > am grossly in error.
                        > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rd. David-Constantine
                        Wright"
                        > > <constantinewright@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> --- "Fr. Alex Kotar" <fralex4@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> > MP's approval of ROCOR's bishops is necessary due to the
                        > > provisions
                        > >> > that ROCOR bishops would particiapte in MP's Synods and
                        Bishop's
                        > >> > Councils (while no MP bishops would participate in ROCOR's
                        Synods
                        > >>
                        > >> OK, I'm confused now. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff has said that
                        ROCOR'a
                        > >> internal life would be completely independent, yet Fr. Alex now
                        says
                        > >> that after the union the MP will have to approve ROCOR's
                        bishops...
                        > > I
                        > >> would assume that means that the MP will have to give its
                        approval
                        > > for
                        > >> all current ROCOR bishops and its approval for those subsequently
                        > >> elected to the ROCOR episcopacy.
                        > >>
                        > >> Which is it? A simple answer, please.
                        > >>
                        > >> In Christ,
                        > >> Rd. David-Constantine
                        > >>
                        > >> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                        > >> | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@ |
                        > >> | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
                        > >> | OR http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright |
                        > >> | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
                        > >> | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
                        > >> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                        > >>
                        > >> __________________________________________________
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                        > >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > >> http://mail.yahoo.com
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                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
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                        >
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