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Re: [orthodox-synod] Struggling with the issue of the MP in the WCC

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  • Gilbert Gamboa
    forgive me if im wrong and please feel free to correct my words, but i was told be a reliable source of a Priest that The Mp during the persecutions of Russia
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 31, 2006
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      forgive me if im wrong and please feel free to correct my words, but i was told be a reliable source of a Priest that The Mp during the persecutions of Russia was being backed up by WCC and its thru them(WCC) that the church was able to breathe a little-Thus becoming again on its own, so its as if they feel obliged to be a part of it today...

      gnmacris <gmacris@...> wrote: All, I am a new member of this message board and a parishioner of
      the ROCOR Church in Seattle. I am struggling a bit with the
      potential upcoming union with the MP because of their membership in
      the WCC. I am hoping to gain some wisdom on this subject from the
      members of this list.

      I've spent the last couple days going through the WCC web site to
      find out more about the latest WCC assembly. I found some pretty
      shocking documents that have come out of the WCC central committee
      of which the MP is a member. This link below is a pseudo Nicene
      Creed essentially espousing the basis of unity for all
      the "Churches" in the WCC.

      http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/theme-issues/assembly-
      documents/official-working-documents/ecclesiology.html

      This second link is the adopted message coming out of this latest
      council.

      http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/theme-issues/assembly-
      documents/plenary-presentations/committee-reports/message-
      committee/message-final.html
      Let me quote from this document:
      Transform us in the offering of ourselves so that we may be your
      partners in transformation
      to strive for the full, visible unity of the one Church of Jesus
      Christ

      I know there are many good things coming out of the Russian Church.
      However, I'm struggling with the notion of being part of a Church
      that belongs and participates fully in this organization. Being part
      of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me like a
      major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change from
      the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years.

      Why isn't the complete pull-out of the WCC a pre-requisite for
      union? If the MP is against the branch theory why are they not
      pulling out on their own given the official positions noted above?
      Why not take an observer status position like the Catholics if they
      feel a need to be part of this effort on a social basis?

      What am I missing here? Thanks, Greg








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    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate and other members are not bound by the statements of the WCC. ... JRS: It would be helpful if they did that; but withdrawal by
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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        Regarding:

        >Being part
        > of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me like a
        > major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change from
        > the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years.

        JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate and other members are not bound by the statements of the
        WCC.

        > Why isn't the complete pull-out of the WCC a pre-requisite for
        > union? If the MP is against the branch theory why are they not
        > pulling out on their own given the official positions noted above?
        > Why not take an observer status position like the Catholics if they
        > feel a need to be part of this effort on a social basis?

        JRS: It would be helpful if they did that; but withdrawal by the Georgian and Bulgarian
        Churches has not stopped the radical breakaway groups that attack them.

        Remember that ROCOR itself was a full, founding member of the organization ("Faith and
        Order Conference") that was reorganized as the WCC. Yet we survived...

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • frraphver
        I also looked over some of this material. I also find it to be basically the type of ecumenism we have witnessed against for these many years now in our
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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          I also looked over some of this material. I also find it to be
          basically the type of ecumenism we have witnessed against for these
          many years now in our church.

          It is another question though how we approach this problem. Should we
          demand that other Orthodox churches leave these groups before being in
          communion with them? Actually it seems that what we do ask for is a
          general assurance from the other Orthdox churches that they themselves
          do not officially teach or believe in ecumenism; ie the teaching that
          all other forms of Christianity (or even other forms of religion) are
          part of the One Church. And no Orthodox church accepts this. So while
          we may seriously question participation in ecumenical groups for us
          this in itself does not add up to being an ecumenist.

          This brings up another question about ecumenism which is how does
          Christ and His Church really ask us to deal with this serious problem
          right now. Seperating ourselves is not the only solution or the only
          witness.

          As you write, " I know there are many good things coming out of the
          Russian Church. However, I'm struggling with the notion of being part
          of a Church that belongs and participates fully in this organization."

          I think this comes very close to hitting the nail on the head as far
          as Orthodox witness goes for the present time. Apart from the question
          of whether the other Orthodox really do "participate fully" in
          ecumenism (as said above- they deny this in the sense of accepting
          core ecumenical beliefs) the main point for us I believe is that
          witness is not only witnessing *against* others. Actually as far as
          Orthodox witness goes this should play only the smallest part the
          major being our prayer about these things and much more importantly a
          genuine life in Christ. In other words what we are precisely called to
          is a personal struggle over these things by fighting the same sins of
          worldliness inside ourselves.

          "Being part of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me
          like a major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change
          from the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years."

          I think we need to question more deeply what involvement in these
          organisations involves. That it *can* affect the integrity of our
          witness and even faith I agree. But it is not really a major sell out
          unless we think the faith is only a restricted to outward types of
          witness. We need to keep in mind the other 99.9% of an Orthodox life
          which never involves ecumencial groups. The other Orthodox are in fact
          leading this deeper life in Christ- the other 99.9% - while we
          concentrate so heavily on accusing others of the same sins we also
          share in but perhaps do not notice in ourselves.

          That there is occurring a change in how we see ecumenism is only
          natural and does not add up to a betrayal. A change in the type of
          witness we make does not mean we are no longer witnessing. Remember
          that by far the most important witness we are called to is that of our
          own struggle with the world. Christ and the Holy Frs assure us that by
          far most of this world's ills are healed through this type of
          struggle. So the main way in which we are called by Christ to witness
          is by the way we live our own Orthodox lives. If we have forgotten
          this then yes there is a betrayal by us (not by our hierarchs- by us).
          But if we are struggling day by day with the world, passion & sin-
          well then we have begun to deal with the problem of ecumenism in the
          best and most effective way possible.

          In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "gnmacris" <gmacris@...> wrote:
          >
          > All, I am a new member of this message board and a parishioner of
          > the ROCOR Church in Seattle. I am struggling a bit with the
          > potential upcoming union with the MP because of their membership in
          > the WCC. I am hoping to gain some wisdom on this subject from the
          > members of this list.
          >
          > I've spent the last couple days going through the WCC web site to
          > find out more about the latest WCC assembly. I found some pretty
          > shocking documents that have come out of the WCC central committee
          > of which the MP is a member. This link below is a pseudo Nicene
          > Creed essentially espousing the basis of unity for all
          > the "Churches" in the WCC.
          >
          > http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/theme-issues/assembly-
          > documents/official-working-documents/ecclesiology.html
          >
          > This second link is the adopted message coming out of this latest
          > council.
          >
          > http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/theme-issues/assembly-
          > documents/plenary-presentations/committee-reports/message-
          > committee/message-final.html
          > Let me quote from this document:
          > Transform us in the offering of ourselves so that we may be your
          > partners in transformation
          > to strive for the full, visible unity of the one Church of Jesus
          > Christ
          >
          > I know there are many good things coming out of the Russian Church.
          > However, I'm struggling with the notion of being part of a Church
          > that belongs and participates fully in this organization. Being part
          > of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me like a
          > major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change from
          > the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years.
          >
          > Why isn't the complete pull-out of the WCC a pre-requisite for
          > union? If the MP is against the branch theory why are they not
          > pulling out on their own given the official positions noted above?
          > Why not take an observer status position like the Catholics if they
          > feel a need to be part of this effort on a social basis?
          >
          > What am I missing here? Thanks, Greg
          >
        • Lutchenkov, Dimitri
          I have been passively reading the questions and responses for the last couple of weeks and just can not keep quiet and on the sidelines any longer. Fr. John s
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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            I have been passively reading the questions and responses for the last
            couple of weeks and just can not keep quiet and on the sidelines any
            longer. Fr. John's response that "The Moscow Patriarchate and other
            members are not bound by the statements of the WCC." is akin to saying
            that belonging to the Nazi party or communist party is OK because one is
            not bound by their decrees or positions. The fact is if you do not
            support the goals and positions of the organization then you should not
            be in it. If you partcipate and are a mamber of an organization then
            you de facto support that organization.

            I am not well versed in the organization "Faith and Order Conference"
            that was reorganized as the WCC but the response provided is very
            misleading and attempts to redirect the reader from the subject. By
            stating that ROCOR was in an organization that later morphed into WCC
            does not by any stretch of the imagination condone or approve the WCC.
            By stating that other churches that left the WCC are still attacked by
            others again does not condone or approve the WCC. The bottom line is
            that ROCOR does not approve or support the WCC and we should not be
            involved with anyone who is a member of the WCC. There are no word
            games that smooth this over or avoid this fact.

            ________________________________

            From: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John R. Shaw
            Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 7:11 AM
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Struggling with the issue of the MP in the
            WCC


            Regarding:

            >Being part
            > of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me like a
            > major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change from
            > the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years.

            JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate and other members are not bound by the
            statements of the
            WCC.

            > Why isn't the complete pull-out of the WCC a pre-requisite for
            > union? If the MP is against the branch theory why are they not
            > pulling out on their own given the official positions noted above?
            > Why not take an observer status position like the Catholics if they
            > feel a need to be part of this effort on a social basis?

            JRS: It would be helpful if they did that; but withdrawal by the
            Georgian and Bulgarian
            Churches has not stopped the radical breakaway groups that attack them.

            Remember that ROCOR itself was a full, founding member of the
            organization ("Faith and
            Order Conference") that was reorganized as the WCC. Yet we survived...

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw



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          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: Nor do I play word games . ROCOR has always been in communion with the Serbian Church, despite the latter s longtime membership in the WCC. The
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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              Dimitri Lutchenkov wrote:

              > The bottom line is
              > that ROCOR does not approve or support the WCC and we should not be
              > involved with anyone who is a member of the WCC. There are no word
              > games that smooth this over or avoid this fact.

              JRS: Nor do I play "word games".

              ROCOR has always been in communion with the Serbian Church, despite the latter's longtime
              membership in the WCC.

              The Jerusalem Patriarchate is in the same category, and despite that, the Patriarch of
              Jerusalem elevated abbesses several times for our nunneries in the Holy Land.

              But the issue with "ecumenism" has not been whether or not someone sends representatives
              to the WCC.

              The issue was always taking part in worship services with non-Orthodox. In the late 1960's
              and early 1970's, there were numerous "ecumenical services", in which Orthodox clergy in
              vestments took part alongside Protestant and Roman Catholic clergy. These gave the
              impression that "God is the same for everybody", and they scandalized those of us who
              believe that Orthodoxy is the only true religion.

              Typically, the Russians ignored these ecuemnical services, while the Greeks seemed to be
              proud to see their clergy "up there with the others", as if they wanted to feel that they as
              immigrants were as good as regular Americans and their clergy.

              This is what has changed: that those services no longer are allowed.

              And, yes, it would be better if the Orthodox all withdrew from the WCC. But their motivation
              in being there is not agreement, or even interest, so far as I see, in the activities of the WCC.
              They are there, because they feel that they need this forum to have their voices heard.

              The Serbian Church has used its WCC contacts to try and make the persecution of the
              Orthodox in Kosovo known, despite the news blackout and disinformation of the Western
              media.

              The Russian Church probably has stayed in the WCC to reply to accusations of being
              intolerant or of being in the way of the Ukrainian Uniates, the Mormons, or other groups that
              have support in Washington.

              As for the WCC, and for the ecumenical movement in general, it has been said, I think rightly,
              that both have outlived their time and that the only reason they go on today, is that they
              have created a bureaucracy that maintains itself.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: The irony of that, is that it is easy enough to separate oneself from the other Orthodox , but not from the non-Orthodox we are surrounded by. There
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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                Fr. Raphael wrote:

                > This brings up another question about ecumenism which is how does
                > Christ and His Church really ask us to deal with this serious problem
                > right now. Seperating ourselves is not the only solution or the only
                > witness.

                JRS: The irony of that, is that it is easy enough to "separate oneself from the other Orthodox",
                but not from the non-Orthodox we are surrounded by.

                There are not too many Russian ecumenists; but sad to say, there are many people in our
                parishes who say, "Bog -- odin dlja vsekh", by which they mean that they are tolerant of their
                children or grandchildren drifting away from Orthodoxy.

                Just this past Sunday, at our annual parish meeting, a woman asked what ecumenism was.

                To her it had been just a word, but it meant that we "did not get along" with the other
                Orthodox. When I explained about the inerfaith services of 30 years ago, about the scandal
                they had been to the devout, and about the unique truth of the Orthodox faith, she seemed
                surprised.

                It was easy for ROCOR to distance itself from the other Orthodox, especially from the Greeks,
                because our parishes lived in our own "Russian exile" world. But over the years, most of the
                younger generation embarked on mixed marriages, moved to other parts of the country
                where they did not make contact with Orthodox churches, and for their children, in many
                cases Orthodoxy was only "grandmother's church": if that.

                That "falling away" represents the real ecumenism that threatens us.

                Unfortunately, it is a grass roots kind of ecumenism, not helped at all by "separation" or
                "walling off" from the other Orthodox.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • frraphver
                ... wrote: Yes- I agree that this one eyed focus on ecumenism prevents us from seeing the more serious type of ecumenism- Bog -- odin dlja
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@...> wrote:

                  Yes- I agree that this one eyed focus on ecumenism prevents us from
                  seeing the more serious type of ecumenism- "Bog -- odin dlja vsekh"-
                  in our own midst.

                  In any case the other type of active involvement in ecumenism is not
                  as common as one might think. In my 27 years active life in the Church
                  as a monastic and priest- about half in the OCA & half in ROCOR- not
                  once was I ever even invited or urged to attend an ecumenical
                  gatehring. I think this is fairly common.

                  When I began my monastic life however at a small OCA skete in Quebec,
                  of our own accord my spiritual father & I attended an 'ecumencial
                  gathering.' It was held at an Anglican Church I think and the ladies'
                  choir sang some hymns while we sat in the pews with the congregation.

                  After the service the Anglican priest led us into the apse and said he
                  had something very valuable to show us. From the reverance with which
                  he spoke we thought he was going to show us a relic. He took something
                  out of a special storage place (I think in the wall) and held it
                  before us. We asked what is it? With great awe he said: "this is a
                  piece of the propellor from the Titanic!" ...well anyway we didn't
                  venerate it. Such was our brief exposure to ecumenism.

                  By the way shortly afterwards we stopped going to these events.

                  In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

                  >
                  > There are not too many Russian ecumenists; but sad to say, there are
                  many people in our
                  > parishes who say, "Bog -- odin dlja vsekh", by which they mean that
                  they are tolerant of their
                  > children or grandchildren drifting away from Orthodoxy.
                  >
                  > Just this past Sunday, at our annual parish meeting, a woman asked
                  what ecumenism was.
                  >
                  > To her it had been just a word, but it meant that we "did not get
                  along" with the other
                  > Orthodox. When I explained about the inerfaith services of 30 years
                  ago, about the scandal
                  > they had been to the devout, and about the unique truth of the
                  Orthodox faith, she seemed
                  > surprised.
                  >
                  > It was easy for ROCOR to distance itself from the other Orthodox,
                  especially from the Greeks,
                  > because our parishes lived in our own "Russian exile" world. But
                  over the years, most of the
                  > younger generation embarked on mixed marriages, moved to other parts
                  of the country
                  > where they did not make contact with Orthodox churches, and for
                  their children, in many
                  > cases Orthodoxy was only "grandmother's church": if that.
                  >
                  > That "falling away" represents the real ecumenism that threatens us.
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, it is a grass roots kind of ecumenism, not helped at
                  all by "separation" or
                  > "walling off" from the other Orthodox.
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  >
                • DDD
                  All this is your opinion, not the wisdom of the Church. When it is brought up that ROCOR was a full member of the Faith and Order conference--an ecumenical
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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                    All this is your opinion, not the wisdom of the Church. When it is brought up that ROCOR was a full member of the Faith and Order conference--an ecumenical group--you avoid this issue. As far as I know, we only withdrew from the WCC because the MP *joined* it, not because we would have withdrawn anyway. We had our own reasons for being in it and the MP has had theirs.
                    The WCC does not require Orthodox to concelebrate with heretics, because of the work the MP and other Orthodox Churches have done in this direction. Nor can Orthodox any longer be outvoted. Furthermore, according to the WCC's own documents, no member is obliged to regard any other member as a real "church."

                    http://incommunion.org/articles/ecumenical-movement/toronto-statement

                    Highlights from the Toronto Statement
                    "received by the World Council of Churches� Central Committee in Toronto, 1950

                    1) The World Council of Churches is not and must never become a Super-Church.

                    Each Church retains the constitutional right to ratify or to reject utterances or actions of the Council. The �authority� of the Council consists only �in the weight it carries with the Churches by its own wisdom�

                    2) The purpose of the World Council of Churches is not to negotiate unions between Churches, which can only be done by the Churches themselves acting on their own initiative, but to bring the Churches into living contact with each other and to promote the study and discussion of the issues of Church unity.

                    3) The World Council cannot and should not be based on any one particular conception of the Church. It does not prejudge the ecclesiological problem.

                    The World Council exists in order that different Churches may face their differences, and therefore no Church is obliged to change its ecclesiology as a consequence of membership in the World Council.

                    4) Membership in the World Council of Churches does not imply that a Church treats its own conception of the Church as merely relative.

                    5) Membership in the World Council does not imply the acceptance of a specific doctrine concerning the nature of Church unity.

                    The member Churches of the World Council consider the relationship of other Churches to the Holy Catholic Church which the Creeds profess as a subject for mutual consideration. Nevertheless, membership does not imply that each Church must regard the other member Churches as Churches in the true and full sense of the word.

                    [snip]"

                    If ROCOR did not condemn membership the Faith and Order Conference, an ecumenical body, who are you to be condemning membership in the WCC--especially since things have improved and there is no concelebration involved?

                    Who are you to decide what our policy should be? Please forgive me for asking such a rude-sounding question, but you are behaving as if we had no bishops, or as if you are wiser than they. This is the most dangerous thing for our Church , for it leads to a multitude of schisms.

                    I would think that had the WCC rules not been changed and there was still joint prayer and concelebration with heterodox, that our bishops would have demanded a pull-out by the MP. But since there is no joint serving with heterodox, and by the WCC's own definitions, no member is obliged to accept the WCC definitions, it seems to me we do not have to demand their withdrawal.
                    Please also do not forget that within the MP itself there are those who are asking for the MP's withdrawal from the WCC.

                    And, as Fr. John Whiteford pointed out, the latest document in question is a "working document" put forth for comments, not a "policy."
                    I'm not keen on the WCC, but there is also discernment--best exercised by our bishops--on how to deal with things. Our bishops are asking our prayers right now that the Holy Spirit will guide them in right decisions, and we should be doing exactly this--praying for them.

                    --Dimitra Dwelley

                    Your comparison, therefore, between being a member of the WCC and being a communist or Nazi is not only false, but provocative and inflammatory.

                    I have been passively reading the questions and responses for the last
                    couple of weeks and just can not keep quiet and on the sidelines any
                    longer. �Fr. John's response that "The Moscow Patriarchate and other
                    members are not bound by the statements of the WCC." is akin to saying
                    that belonging to the Nazi party or communist party is OK because one is
                    not bound by their decrees or positions. �The fact is if you do not
                    support the goals and positions of the organization then you should not
                    be in �it. �If you partcipate and are a mamber of an organization then
                    you de facto support that organization.

                    I am not well versed in the organization "Faith and Order Conference"
                    that was reorganized as the WCC but the response provided is very
                    misleading and attempts to redirect the reader from the subject. �By
                    stating that ROCOR was in an organization that later morphed into WCC
                    does not by any stretch of the imagination condone or approve the WCC.
                    By stating that other churches that left the WCC are still attacked by
                    others again does not condone or approve the WCC. �The bottom line is
                    that ROCOR does not approve or support the WCC and we should not be
                    involved with anyone who is a member of the WCC. �There are no word
                    games that smooth this over or avoid this fact.

                    ________________________________

                    From: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John R. Shaw
                    Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 7:11 AM
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Struggling with the issue of the MP in the
                    WCC


                    Regarding:

                    >Being part
                    >�of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me like a
                    >�major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change from
                    >�the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years.

                    JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate and other members are not bound by the
                    statements of the
                    WCC.

                    >�Why isn't the complete pull-out of the WCC a pre-requisite for
                    >�union? If the MP is against the branch theory why are they not
                    >�pulling out on their own given the official positions noted above?
                    >�Why not take an observer status position like the Catholics if they
                    >�feel a need to be part of this effort on a social basis?

                    JRS: It would be helpful if they did that; but withdrawal by the
                    Georgian and Bulgarian
                    Churches has not stopped the radical breakaway groups that attack them.

                    Remember that ROCOR itself was a full, founding member of the
                    organization ("Faith and
                    Order Conference") that was reorganized as the WCC. Yet we survived...

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw



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                    [
                  • michael nikitin
                    ROCOR after the anathema of 1983 could not pray with those in ecumenism and WCC(an ecumenistic organization). One of ROCOR s stipulation was that the MP had to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 1, 2006
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                      ROCOR after the anathema of 1983 could not pray with those in ecumenism and WCC(an ecumenistic organization).

                      One of ROCOR's stipulation was that the MP had to leave WCC before any dialogue could take place. This of course was abandoned when the bishops realized this would never happen.

                      So much for the anathema against ecumenism of 1983 which was reaffirmed in 1998. It too is being abandoned.

                      Michael N

                      "Lutchenkov, Dimitri" <dimitri.lutchenkov@...> wrote: I have been passively reading the questions and responses for the last
                      couple of weeks and just can not keep quiet and on the sidelines any
                      longer. Fr. John's response that "The Moscow Patriarchate and other
                      members are not bound by the statements of the WCC." is akin to saying
                      that belonging to the Nazi party or communist party is OK because one is
                      not bound by their decrees or positions. The fact is if you do not
                      support the goals and positions of the organization then you should not
                      be in it. If you partcipate and are a mamber of an organization then
                      you de facto support that organization.

                      I am not well versed in the organization "Faith and Order Conference"
                      that was reorganized as the WCC but the response provided is very
                      misleading and attempts to redirect the reader from the subject. By
                      stating that ROCOR was in an organization that later morphed into WCC
                      does not by any stretch of the imagination condone or approve the WCC.
                      By stating that other churches that left the WCC are still attacked by
                      others again does not condone or approve the WCC. The bottom line is
                      that ROCOR does not approve or support the WCC and we should not be
                      involved with anyone who is a member of the WCC. There are no word
                      games that smooth this over or avoid this fact.

                      ________________________________

                      From: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John R. Shaw
                      Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 7:11 AM
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Struggling with the issue of the MP in the
                      WCC


                      Regarding:

                      >Being part
                      > of the WCC and agreeing to the positions above seems to me like a
                      > major sell-out of our faith and witness. It is also a change from
                      > the position ROCOR has taken on this subject for many years.

                      JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate and other members are not bound by the
                      statements of the
                      WCC.

                      > Why isn't the complete pull-out of the WCC a pre-requisite for
                      > union? If the MP is against the branch theory why are they not
                      > pulling out on their own given the official positions noted above?
                      > Why not take an observer status position like the Catholics if they
                      > feel a need to be part of this effort on a social basis?

                      JRS: It would be helpful if they did that; but withdrawal by the
                      Georgian and Bulgarian
                      Churches has not stopped the radical breakaway groups that attack them.

                      Remember that ROCOR itself was a full, founding member of the
                      organization ("Faith and
                      Order Conference") that was reorganized as the WCC. Yet we survived...

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw



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                    • michael nikitin
                      As I understood it, ROCOR sent delegates to the Faith and Order Conference. When it became obvious this organization was deviating from Orthodoxy into
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 3, 2006
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                        As I understood it, ROCOR sent delegates to the Faith and
                        Order Conference. When it became obvious this organization
                        was deviating from Orthodoxy into ecumenism, the delegation
                        left. Accepting the MP(who joined the Soviet regime and
                        helped persecute the Russian Church under St.Tikhon)as the
                        Russian Church, hastened the delegates into leaving.

                        There is no doubt that it was the right decision. We see
                        what path this organization is taking. Those joining know
                        the WCC's goal.One just has to visit their website and read
                        their unOrthodox views.To join is to agree with these views,
                        whether or not he abides by all of them.

                        Does this mean after union with MP, ROCOR will join the WCC?
                        If not, why?

                        Michael N

                        DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:


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