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Re: [orthodox-synod] Politics and Presidents (offshoot of Who Is Really Behind the Schisms?)

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  • Vladimir Kozyreff
    Dear Elizabeth, The strategic interest for the US to have bases in Kosovo is obvious. Who admires Presidents Clinton and Bush? We just learned today that Prime
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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      Dear Elizabeth,



      The strategic interest for the US to have bases in Kosovo is obvious.



      Who admires Presidents Clinton and Bush? We just learned today that Prime Minister Blair too listens to God when making decisions on Iraq. Strange how they slander our Tsars for being orthodox, and nevertheless see themselves too as anointed by God.





      "L'homme n'est ni ange ni bête, et le malheur veut que qui veut fairel'ange fait la bête" (Bl.Pascal, Pensées)



      "Man is neither an angel nor a beast, and it is unfortunate that whoever wants to act as an angel acts as a beast".



      In Christ,



      Vladimir Kozyreff



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 9:25 PM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Politics and Presidents (offshoot of Who Is Really Behind the Schisms?)


      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> >
      >> While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did
      > not bomb orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was
      > standing in the way of our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe
      > and while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a real born
      > again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his heart after series
      > of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with
      > Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.
      >>
      >>
      >
      > We bombed Orthodox Serbia, supposedly defending Kosovo on the behalf
      > of those poor (Muslim) "ethnic Albanians" (what exactly was the
      > geopolitical interest again?). That was under that "protivnaya Baba"
      > Albright and her boss, Wee Willy Clinton. Who, by the way, loved to
      > wave to the cameras as HE walked to church, Bible in hand. I'm not
      > dissing President Bush or necessarily questioning his belief in our
      > Lord. But, if we're going to be cynical about our leaders (such as
      > Bishops and such), then let's not be naive about those photo-ops that
      > make our "God-fearing" (?!) commanders-in-chief look so "admirable."
      >
      > elizabeth
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mitin, Stiva
      ... I too have thought of the Potemkin Village scenario. However, there needs to be a reason for building the village... 1) The whole thing is a plot to
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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        On 3/4/06, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
        >
        > 2000 "Piterskie Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes you think
        > situation in Russian Church is any different ? Can you be 100% sure there is
        > no Mr. Tuchkov Jr. from the Committee on Cults Control still lurking
        > somewhere in the background with dossiers in hand ? Didn't THEY directly
        > appoint current Patriarch and many of his senior bishops to their posts ?
        > Would it be to paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox renaissance of
        > the last 20 years was a Potemkin's village to a large degree at least in the
        > ranks of upper management ? Then again, who can deny that millions of
        > Russian people are back in church taling communion ? Lord does work in
        > mysterious ways.


        I too have thought of the Potemkin Village scenario. However, there needs
        to be a reason for building the village...

        1) The whole thing is a plot to ensnare ROCOR and do away with it once and
        for all/gain all her valuable real estate. I dismissed this since, ROCOR is
        such a tiny drop in the ocean and I can't figure out what the cost-benefit
        would be (after all, millions and millions have been spent in
        rebuilding/refurbishing/regilding in Russia.. for what, all to swallo
        ROCOR?). Also, this would have to be one heck of a village, since so many
        zarubezhniki have travelled to Russia and witnessed Orthodox life in so many
        areas and places; it is impossible for "those behind the scenes" to have
        built Potemkin villages all over Russia (If you doubt this, just surf the
        net and visit all the Orthodox sites in Russia, with there myriad of photos
        and articles detailing a vibrant spiritual life.)

        2) Impress the West at how free and open Russia is. This one can also be
        dismissed out of hand, since all Western governments are basically
        areligious. With the exception of possibly Italy, Ireland, Poland and maybe
        the US, most people in the West run the gamut of agnostic to atheist, so
        they really couldn't are less. In fact, an Orthodox and religious Russia
        would be seen as a threat, an anachronism and would not be at all welcome to
        the multicultural humanistic XXI century mosaic. So, if the siloviki are
        creating an Orthodox Potemkin Village to impress the West, they are acting
        on some pretty fairly fault intelligence.

        operative who speaks church language and will say pretty much anything to
        > get you from point A to point B while really advancing the cause of Russian
        > Federation foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President Putin himself
        > showing up in Synod was sure weird. Can you imagine American president
        > adjudicating church politics ?


        Advancing the foreign policy cause of the RF? Again, I don't see how a
        viable, free Russian Church helps Russia at all (in the eyes of the West,
        that is). President Putin at Synod was "weird?" This maybe termed
        Too-long-in the-Diaspora Syndrome. When the Sovs were in power, we
        complained they were militantly atheist. When Yelstin was prez, he was a
        drunk and just went to church for pokaz. Now that Presdent Putin seems to be
        religious and takes an active role/interest in the Church, we say he should
        stay in the Kremlin and mind his business, like President Bush!! What
        happened to having a Sovereign, anointed by God? There isn't one now, but
        having a Russian president take what appears to be a genuine interest in the
        Church is a Bad Thing?


        While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did not bomb
        > orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of
        > our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe
        >
        > Beg to disagree. I doubt few--if any--of the communist nomenklatura were
        killed in the shameful bombing of Serbia. We do know, however, that a
        Serbian Orthodox priest had his head blown off, when he was hit by a falling
        bomb leaving his church. We do know that the US and NATO bombed all of the
        bridges over the Danube, which caused disruption and distress for ordinary
        people in not only Serbia but in all the countries that use the Danube. We
        also know that uranium-enriched weapons do not discriminate against Orthodox
        or communist Serb.

        and while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a real born again
        > Christian who consciously let Jesus into his heart after series of
        > conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with Bible in
        > hand which I actually find very admirable..
        >
        >
        Did you find it admirable when Clinton also was shown coming out of church
        carrying The Bible? Is allowing Jesus into one's heart after talking to
        Billy Graham part of the Branch theory of Ecumenism? Again, I am taken
        aback--to say the least--that a religious Putin is bad (and weird) and a
        religious--but heterodox--Bush is good!!

        Stiva.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • antiquariu@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/4/2006 2:49:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gene703@yahoo.com writes: Russian church does look very different from 20 years
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 5, 2006
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          In a message dated 3/4/2006 2:49:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          gene703@... writes:

          <<Snip,,,>>
          Russian church does look very different from 20 years ago, no doubt. But
          who allowed it to evolve into what it is now and who are the people currently
          constituting it's upper management ? It's a common knowledge that perestroika
          was closely managed by KGB, it is also a common knowledge that all Russian
          political parties are created and controlled directly from Kremlin,

          [Vova H.] Common knowledge, where Russians are concerned, is usually a red
          herring. Look at the approving manner in which many Russians seek out plots,
          conspiracies, etc, involving Masons, Jews, and nefarious international
          councils.

          where since 2000 "Piterskie Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes
          you think situation in Russian Church is any different ? Can you be 100% sure
          there is no Mr. Tuchkov Jr. from the Committee on Cults Control still
          lurking somewhere in the background with dossiers in hand ? Didn't THEY directly
          appoint current Patriarch and many of his senior bishops to their posts ? Would
          it be to paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox renaissance of the last
          20 years was a Potemkin's village to a large degree at least in the ranks of
          upper management ? Then again, who can deny that millions of Russian people
          are back
          in church taling communion ? Lord does work in mysterious ways.


          [Vova H.] Thanks for the recovery in the last line, Gene. And that is
          important. But please, lose the "they." It detracts from the strong points in
          the rest of your argument.


          So, next time you speak to one of these negotiators from Moscow ask yourself
          a question. Could it be that the person I am talking to, person wearing
          podryasnik and a pectoral cross or a panagia is actually a highly trained
          intelligence operative who speaks church language and will say pretty much anything
          to get you from point A to point B while really advancing the cause of
          Russian Federation foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President Putin
          himself showing up in Synod was sure weird. Can you imagine American president
          adjudicating church politics ?

          [Vova H.] Naaah, 'cause it's just not that important in the big picture.
          The Russian Church, and the Russian Church Abroad, and even the Byvshij Soyuz,
          had to get their respective acts together to keep from becoming historically
          irrelevant. While Russians are busy coining new "-isms" the rest of the
          world marches onward. As far as adjudicating church politics is concerned, the
          President does not have a majority, or even a plurality, of the population
          adhering to the same creed, regardless of how weakly they might adhere to it.
          Lt Col Putin does. Besides, there is that old Latin question, "Cui bono?"
          What good does it do to have these siloviki calling shots, since no one in
          the rest of the civilized world cares even one iota. Watching Russian oligarch
          -- party -- mafia -- gosbez politics can be fun for some of us who study
          this nonsense, but do you really think anyone not on a faculty cares? Not
          outside of an extremely limited set of afficionados.

          While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did not bomb
          orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of our
          geopolitical interest in Southern Europe and while our President is surely not
          Orthodox he is a real born again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his
          heart after series of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church
          regularly with Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.

          [Vova H.] Gene, this is your best call here, and I agree with you 100%.

          And finally, on this Forgiveness Sunday, if I have done anything to offend,
          wound or hurt, I humbly beg for forgivess,

          In Christ,

          Vladimir Hindrichs



















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        • kato_ny
          Otets Alexander, Hello, its been awhile, bet everytime I find the extra time, I try to see whats going on the forum. Though ALL my MESSAGES here are
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 5, 2006
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            Otets Alexander,

            Hello, its been awhile, bet everytime I find the extra time, I try to
            see whats going on the forum. Though "ALL" my MESSAGES here are
            "MODERATED", it's that "LESS" interesting to post since "NOW" this is a
            controlled group. I wonder if this message will get through or not.

            Concerning your posting, I really find it quite amazing!

            WHO REALLY WANTED TO SPLIT AWAY FROM THE ROCA CHURCH IN THE FIRST PLACE?
            What reasons would you think that such groups have split away?

            The question you should ask yourself, "Is it possible that "outside new"
            forces tried to force the "old traditional" out of Synod, and bring
            "newcomers" into the church? What Forced the Suzdalites, the
            Mansonvillians, the Varnavites and the Lazarites to break away? Isn't
            that some sort of sign??? I mean, imagine the wave of people, including
            priests and parisioners, traditionalists, who saw something seriously
            change in the True Church of God...

            Metropolitan Vitaly is still alive and living a normal life in
            Mansonville. Have you or anyone from today's Synod, visited him, spoke
            to him? If he was that much senile, I think he would be inside a insane
            asylum. unfortunately, thats not the case... What also is quite strange,
            shouldn't all of you feel sorrow for him if he was that sick?
            Unfortunately thats not the case...

            So the question is, who forced him to retire? Was there a set plan in
            place, to push him out, create reasons that he's senile, and on
            medication, and can't serve the church? Isn't it bizarre that he's still
            running a Russian Orthodox Church jurisdiction, and that there are many
            followers that once belonged to the one true church?

            Who really is responsible for the Schism then?

            Now, as far as the MP concerned, most of you who are leading the process
            towards unity, don't really show that much care, to listen from many
            parisioners. Most of you have this thing built up inside of yourselves,
            that "WE ARE GOING TO UNITE AND THATS FINAL" Forget the rest, they can't
            do much anyway to stop the process...

            Your travels to Russia, meeting up with the MP, and the MP snake showing
            you the beautiful shinny apple, doesn't mean that they are that clean
            and truthful! The MP Hiearchy (inside the yolk), are mostly Soviet
            brought up, that was under the guidance once of the KGB. Now quite
            modern, far from handling a spying network, the MP church has become an
            ORGANIZATION, who's interest today is to generate capital. We are not
            talking about the Parisioners in Russia, or the priests and monks in the
            regions, we are talking about the MP within the Hiearchy... the top
            heads. There is no "spiritualness" in there. (TAM NETU ISTINI!) Just try
            talking to Nicholas Bashakov (sp?), the MP secretary. You know who I
            mean. he's a modern day priest... who has run away from my questions to
            him on several occasions I managed to bump into him.

            Did you ever speak to the members and priests of the ROCA jurisdictions
            during your travels in Russia? Did you ever want to find out from these
            people who baulk at the MP, and perhaps get a better understanding of
            the situation in their native country? Are you scared to do so, or you
            don't find the reasons for it, afraid that they will give you their two
            cents about the MP in a bad perspective.

            So to come to a small conclusion, you can study all you want from the
            KGB files of 1923, but that one document that will be eventually
            created, when the two churches (and if it does) unite and the
            parisioners will split up, YOUR NAME (as well as others) will be
            documented and responsbile for the Newly United Church. You will be
            responsible for the destruction of the once True Church, The Russian
            Orthodox Church Abroad. You literally will be signing it away, with
            proper homework study, only relying on some 1923 documents, and seeinga
            shiny apple that Pat Alexii has given you.

            Which apparently doesn't seem to bother most you at all. On the
            contrary, you are trying to rush the church to unite, and that's quite
            sad. That is so modern in todays society.

            So, who really is behind the schisms Fr Alexander?
            Who's dictating todays Church?
            Why the rush, and forgeting the past, and one of the best examples of
            the needs to unite (or not) when Jerricho and Hebron Churches were taken
            away from us by Force! I still never got any clear answers concerning
            those two events. I believe the Patriarch was in Power already. Were
            those good signs of understandings to unite now?

            Forgive me Father and Everyone here, if I have hurt anyones feelings or
            did someone something bad, on this Sunday of Forgiveness.

            Konstantin






            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
            <lebedeff@...> wrote:
            > ======================
            >
            > An amazing document, indeed.
            >
            > How similar is that situation to the one that we have now, with four
            > groups having separated themselves from the Russian Orthodox Church
            > Outside of Russia, each with its own hierarchy, and each disposed
            > inimically to one another and to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
            > of Russia itself (the Suzdalites, the Mansonvillians, the Varnavites
            > and the Lazarites)!
            >
            > Yet we know exactly who was behind the splitting up of the Russian
            > Orthdox Church in 1923--the 6th Section of the Secret Department of
            > the OGPU--the precursor to the KGB-- and we know whose end it really
            served.
            >
            > Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
            > Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
            serve?
            >
            > I address those who are in these split-off groups:
            >
            > Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
            > lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
            >
            > With love in Christ,
            >
            > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Maureen Girard
            ... spoke ... insane ... Senility is NOT considered insanity. Senility can come from a variety of sources--the formation of metal-like placs on the brain,
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 6, 2006
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              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "kato_ny" <kato_ny@...> wrote:
              >
              > Metropolitan Vitaly is still alive and living a normal life in
              > Mansonville. Have you or anyone from today's Synod, visited him,
              spoke
              > to him? If he was that much senile, I think he would be inside a
              insane
              > asylum. unfortunately, thats not the case...>>

              Senility is NOT considered insanity. Senility can come from a variety
              of sources--the formation of metal-like placs on the brain, general
              tissue failure impacting the structure of brain cells, various medical
              disorders, etc. NOBODY goes to the "insane asylum" for these types of
              medical disorders. These unfortunate folks are usually treated at
              home. Of course, memory is usually involved. In many cases, these
              people can recall events from their childhood but recent events are
              outside of their medical ability. This means that they can remember
              dear old Uncle Harry but they may not recall meeting you yesterday.
              Treatment for these people is supportive. In other words, there's no
              cure but they need help with ADLs(activities of daily living).
              Dr. Girard
            • DDD
              Dear Vladimir,   Just looking at  the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei (Gnevyshev), starosta of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 7, 2006
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                Dear Vladimir,
                 
                Just looking at  the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei (Gnevyshev), starosta of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop Gregory (Kozyrev) also served.
                Any relation?  Not a loaded question, as I do not follow up on these threads. I just happened to notice the name....
                 
                 
                http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Life/life4755.htm
                 
                --Dimitra Dwelley
              • Vladimir Kozyreff
                Dear Dimitra, I do not know, wheter we are relatives or not. As you may know, this family gave more than one martyr. http://www.fond.ru/book/book3/3-45.htm In
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 8, 2006
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                  Dear Dimitra,

                  I do not know, wheter we are relatives or not. As you may know, this family
                  gave more than one martyr.

                  http://www.fond.ru/book/book3/3-45.htm

                  In Christ,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "DDD" <dimitradd@...>
                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:49 PM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Any relation?


                  Dear Vladimir,

                  Just looking at the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei (Gnevyshev), starosta
                  of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop Gregory (Kozyrev)
                  also served.
                  Any relation? Not a loaded question, as I do not follow up on these threads.
                  I just happened to notice the name....


                  http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Life/life4755.htm

                  --Dimitra Dwelley




                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod


                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • cantor71
                  Thank you, Vladimir, for this very informative link. I note their work is blessed by Alexy II. ... this family ... (Gnevyshev), starosta ... (Kozyrev) ...
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 9, 2006
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                    Thank you, Vladimir, for this very informative link. I note their
                    work is blessed by Alexy II.

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Kozyreff"
                    <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Dimitra,
                    >
                    > I do not know, wheter we are relatives or not. As you may know,
                    this family
                    > gave more than one martyr.
                    >
                    > http://www.fond.ru/book/book3/3-45.htm
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    >
                    > Vladimir Kozyreff
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "DDD" <dimitradd@...>
                    > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:49 PM
                    > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Any relation?
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Vladimir,
                    >
                    > Just looking at the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei
                    (Gnevyshev), starosta
                    > of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop Gregory
                    (Kozyrev)
                    > also served.
                    > Any relation? Not a loaded question, as I do not follow up on
                    these threads.
                    > I just happened to notice the name....
                    >
                    >
                    > http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Life/life4755.htm
                    >
                    > --Dimitra Dwelley
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
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