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Who Is Really Behind the Schisms?

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  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    Just today I was rereading the secret Archives of the Politburo regarding Church matters and I was struck by the following passage in the Report of the
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 2, 2006
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      Just today I was rereading the secret Archives of the Politburo
      regarding Church matters and I was struck by the following passage in
      the Report of the Director of the 6th Section of the Secret
      Department of the OGPU E. A. Tuchkov to his superior T.D. Deribas
      about the work the Section had accomplished during 1923 (Report dated
      December 12, 1923).

      "First of all it is necessary to note that the work of the Sixth
      Section, up until 1923 consisted almost exclusively of activities of
      a purely informational character, both in the realm of the churchniks
      ["tserkovniki" - the term used by the OGPU for Orthodox Christians, -
      A.L.], as well as in the realm of the sectarians. Intelligence until
      that time had been extremely weak, which made it possible to to do
      only information gathering and nothing else.

      "In 1923, in the area of intelligence positive results have been
      achieved, and for this reason it has become possible for the Section
      not only to be informed of the situation of any particular
      organization which is in the competence of the Sixth Section, but to
      direct these organizations. During 1923, speaking completely
      objectively, the Sixth Section has achieved major results both in its
      work regarding churchniks, as well as regarding sectarians.

      "1. Regarding Churchniks

      "The goal which had been placed before the Section at the end of 1922
      to move the Orthodox Church from its moribund and anti-Soviet
      position and to deprive it of that strength which it had held prior
      to that time, has been completely accomplished by the Section: The
      Orthodox Church as a single apparatus does not exist anymore at the
      present time; it has been broken into several separate groups which
      have their separate hierarchies, and which are found in constant
      enmity to one another and which are disposed to be completely
      irreconcilable to one another.

      "At the present time there are four such groups that are fully formed
      and which have their own ecclesiastical apparatus, namely the
      Tikhonites, the Renovationists, the Renascenists, and the Working
      Church. All of these groups have been placed in such a state, that
      willingly or unwillingly they are bound to constantly be at war with
      one another and to curry favor from the organs of civil authority.
      The enmity between these groups deepens from time to time and more
      and more, and concurrently the authority of the servers of the cult
      is being lost, and from this, among the faithful, and especially
      among the youth, is created an extremely passive, and at times
      inimical attitude even to the Church itself, on the grounds of which
      there begins to develop the growth of atheism.

      "The splitting up of the Orthodox Church into the above-indicated
      groups is the fulfillment of only one part of the work which was
      completed regarding the Orthodox churchniks in 1923.

      "The second significant moment in the work of the Section -- was the
      accomplishment of the "repentance of Tikhon," which as you are
      probably aware, made an extremely unfavorable impression on the
      Russian monarchists and the right-leaning elements in general, who
      had seen in Tikhon, up to this time, an adamant anti-Soviet figure."

      ======================

      An amazing document, indeed.

      How similar is that situation to the one that we have now, with four
      groups having separated themselves from the Russian Orthodox Church
      Outside of Russia, each with its own hierarchy, and each disposed
      inimically to one another and to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
      of Russia itself (the Suzdalites, the Mansonvillians, the Varnavites
      and the Lazarites)!

      Yet we know exactly who was behind the splitting up of the Russian
      Orthdox Church in 1923--the 6th Section of the Secret Department of
      the OGPU--the precursor to the KGB-- and we know whose end it really served.

      Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
      Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really serve?

      I address those who are in these split-off groups:

      Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
      lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?

      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
    • Gilbert Gamboa
      See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world,
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 2, 2006
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        "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, rather than on Christ" (Colossians 2:8).



        Saint Paul the Apostle was right? "The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength" (1 Corinthians 1:25).


        These Schism`s were a severe attack and has fooled many..
        A certain Christian man went to see Saint Silouan for advice. "Father, I have a deadly enemy," he confessed. "The wrongs he's done to me are innumerable. He cheated me out of a large piece of property. He slanders me wherever he goes and speaks ill of me and my family. He's made my life unbearable. Now I find out he's even plotting to take my life. A few days ago, I heard he's going to try to poison me. But I won't let him get away with anything else. I've decided to hand him over to the law!" "Do as you like," Silouan said with indifference. "But Father," the man continued, "don't you think if this evil man's punished, especially severely as he should be, it would save his soul in the end? "Do whatever gives you peace," Silouan answered with the same nonchalance. "I'm going straight to the judge, then," the man said, getting up to leave. "Well, don't rush off quite yet," Silouan said. "First, let's pray for God to bring success on your course of action." They bowed their heads,
        and Silouan began to say the familiar "Our Father." But the man furrowed his brow in bewilderment when he heard the saint pray these words: "And do not forgive us our debts, as we do not forgive those in debt to us." "You got it wrong, Father," he interrupted. "That's not how the Lord's Prayer goes!" "Nevertheless, that's the way it is," Silouan sighed dispassionately. "Since you've already set your mind on handing your brother over to the courts, Silouan can't say the prayer the way it's supposed to be said without committing hypocrisy." From the Sayings of the Desert Fathers and Mothers






        "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:
        Just today I was rereading the secret Archives of the Politburo
        regarding Church matters and I was struck by the following passage in
        the Report of the Director of the 6th Section of the Secret
        Department of the OGPU E. A. Tuchkov to his superior T.D. Deribas
        about the work the Section had accomplished during 1923 (Report dated
        December 12, 1923).

        "First of all it is necessary to note that the work of the Sixth
        Section, up until 1923 consisted almost exclusively of activities of
        a purely informational character, both in the realm of the churchniks
        ["tserkovniki" - the term used by the OGPU for Orthodox Christians, -
        A.L.], as well as in the realm of the sectarians. Intelligence until
        that time had been extremely weak, which made it possible to to do
        only information gathering and nothing else.

        "In 1923, in the area of intelligence positive results have been
        achieved, and for this reason it has become possible for the Section
        not only to be informed of the situation of any particular
        organization which is in the competence of the Sixth Section, but to
        direct these organizations. During 1923, speaking completely
        objectively, the Sixth Section has achieved major results both in its
        work regarding churchniks, as well as regarding sectarians.

        "1. Regarding Churchniks

        "The goal which had been placed before the Section at the end of 1922
        to move the Orthodox Church from its moribund and anti-Soviet
        position and to deprive it of that strength which it had held prior
        to that time, has been completely accomplished by the Section: The
        Orthodox Church as a single apparatus does not exist anymore at the
        present time; it has been broken into several separate groups which
        have their separate hierarchies, and which are found in constant
        enmity to one another and which are disposed to be completely
        irreconcilable to one another.

        "At the present time there are four such groups that are fully formed
        and which have their own ecclesiastical apparatus, namely the
        Tikhonites, the Renovationists, the Renascenists, and the Working
        Church. All of these groups have been placed in such a state, that
        willingly or unwillingly they are bound to constantly be at war with
        one another and to curry favor from the organs of civil authority.
        The enmity between these groups deepens from time to time and more
        and more, and concurrently the authority of the servers of the cult
        is being lost, and from this, among the faithful, and especially
        among the youth, is created an extremely passive, and at times
        inimical attitude even to the Church itself, on the grounds of which
        there begins to develop the growth of atheism.

        "The splitting up of the Orthodox Church into the above-indicated
        groups is the fulfillment of only one part of the work which was
        completed regarding the Orthodox churchniks in 1923.

        "The second significant moment in the work of the Section -- was the
        accomplishment of the "repentance of Tikhon," which as you are
        probably aware, made an extremely unfavorable impression on the
        Russian monarchists and the right-leaning elements in general, who
        had seen in Tikhon, up to this time, an adamant anti-Soviet figure."

        ======================

        An amazing document, indeed.

        How similar is that situation to the one that we have now, with four
        groups having separated themselves from the Russian Orthodox Church
        Outside of Russia, each with its own hierarchy, and each disposed
        inimically to one another and to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
        of Russia itself (the Suzdalites, the Mansonvillians, the Varnavites
        and the Lazarites)!

        Yet we know exactly who was behind the splitting up of the Russian
        Orthdox Church in 1923--the 6th Section of the Secret Department of
        the OGPU--the precursor to the KGB-- and we know whose end it really served.

        Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
        Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really serve?

        I address those who are in these split-off groups:

        Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
        lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?

        With love in Christ,

        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff




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      • Bushunow, Peter
        ... serve? ... Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are indeed the work of the devil and his helpers. But you have put the cause on its head. These
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 2, 2006
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          Father Alexander Lebedeff writes:
          >Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
          >Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
          serve?

          >I address those who are in these split-off groups:

          >Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
          >lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?

          >With love in Christ,

          >Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

          Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are indeed the work of
          the devil and his helpers. But you have put the cause on its head.
          These splits were precipitated exactly because ROCOR began approaching
          the MP to negotiate. They were worsened because priests and bishops,
          without prior authorization and consensus of the synod of bishops and a
          proper sobor began communicating with those in another jurisdiction.
          Yes, this indeed is how the soviet, God hating authorities work, by
          dividing and conquering, by confusing, by sophistry.

          It is absolutely inappropriate to conclude that we should just join with
          those who are influenced by the soviet system, and so tragic that many
          of the proponents of subservience to the MP have condemned their
          brothers and sisters in the diaspora who do not agree with them.

          Yes, let us make sure we retain communion in our own part of the Russian
          church before we approach such difficult and controversial questions as
          eccliastic acceptance of the MP.

          Peter

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        • gene703
          wow, it took a medical doctor to succinctly diagnose our ecclesiastical obstructions Bushunow, Peter wrote: ... serve? ...
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 2, 2006
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            wow, it took a medical doctor to succinctly diagnose our ecclesiastical "obstructions"


            "Bushunow, Peter" <peter.bushunow@...> wrote:
            Father Alexander Lebedeff writes:
            >Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
            >Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
            serve?

            >I address those who are in these split-off groups:

            >Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
            >lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?

            >With love in Christ,

            >Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

            Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are indeed the work of
            the devil and his helpers. But you have put the cause on its head.
            These splits were precipitated exactly because ROCOR began approaching
            the MP to negotiate. They were worsened because priests and bishops,
            without prior authorization and consensus of the synod of bishops and a
            proper sobor began communicating with those in another jurisdiction.
            Yes, this indeed is how the soviet, God hating authorities work, by
            dividing and conquering, by confusing, by sophistry.

            It is absolutely inappropriate to conclude that we should just join with
            those who are influenced by the soviet system, and so tragic that many
            of the proponents of subservience to the MP have condemned their
            brothers and sisters in the diaspora who do not agree with them.

            Yes, let us make sure we retain communion in our own part of the Russian
            church before we approach such difficult and controversial questions as
            eccliastic acceptance of the MP.

            Peter

            **********************************************************************
            This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
            intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
            are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it from your system.

            This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for
            the presence of computer viruses.

            Thank You,
            Viahealth
            **********************************************************************


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Stackpole Gregory
            whoah - I am radically unaware of the history of the Church just prior to and following the rise of the Soviets. What is your source for these quotes? Thank
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 2, 2006
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              whoah - I am radically unaware of the history of the
              Church just prior to and following the rise of the
              Soviets. What is your source for these quotes? Thank
              you for providing them!
              Christ is among us!
              -Gregory

              --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
              wrote:

              > Just today I was rereading the secret Archives of
              > the Politburo
              > regarding Church matters and I was struck by the
              > following passage in
              > the Report of the Director of the 6th Section of the
              > Secret
              > Department of the OGPU E. A. Tuchkov to his superior
              > T.D. Deribas
              > about the work the Section had accomplished during
              > 1923 (Report dated
              > December 12, 1923).
              >
              > "First of all it is necessary to note that the work
              > of the Sixth
              > Section, up until 1923 consisted almost exclusively
              > of activities of
              > a purely informational character, both in the realm
              > of the churchniks
              > ["tserkovniki" - the term used by the OGPU for
              > Orthodox Christians, -
              > A.L.], as well as in the realm of the sectarians.
              > Intelligence until
              > that time had been extremely weak, which made it
              > possible to to do
              > only information gathering and nothing else.
              >
              > "In 1923, in the area of intelligence positive
              > results have been
              > achieved, and for this reason it has become possible
              > for the Section
              > not only to be informed of the situation of any
              > particular
              > organization which is in the competence of the Sixth
              > Section, but to
              > direct these organizations. During 1923, speaking
              > completely
              > objectively, the Sixth Section has achieved major
              > results both in its
              > work regarding churchniks, as well as regarding
              > sectarians.
              >
              > "1. Regarding Churchniks
              >
              > "The goal which had been placed before the Section
              > at the end of 1922
              > to move the Orthodox Church from its moribund and
              > anti-Soviet
              > position and to deprive it of that strength which it
              > had held prior
              > to that time, has been completely accomplished by
              > the Section: The
              > Orthodox Church as a single apparatus does not exist
              > anymore at the
              > present time; it has been broken into several
              > separate groups which
              > have their separate hierarchies, and which are found
              > in constant
              > enmity to one another and which are disposed to be
              > completely
              > irreconcilable to one another.
              >
              > "At the present time there are four such groups that
              > are fully formed
              > and which have their own ecclesiastical apparatus,
              > namely the
              > Tikhonites, the Renovationists, the Renascenists,
              > and the Working
              > Church. All of these groups have been placed in such
              > a state, that
              > willingly or unwillingly they are bound to
              > constantly be at war with
              > one another and to curry favor from the organs of
              > civil authority.
              > The enmity between these groups deepens from time to
              > time and more
              > and more, and concurrently the authority of the
              > servers of the cult
              > is being lost, and from this, among the faithful,
              > and especially
              > among the youth, is created an extremely passive,
              > and at times
              > inimical attitude even to the Church itself, on the
              > grounds of which
              > there begins to develop the growth of atheism.
              >
              > "The splitting up of the Orthodox Church into the
              > above-indicated
              > groups is the fulfillment of only one part of the
              > work which was
              > completed regarding the Orthodox churchniks in 1923.
              >
              > "The second significant moment in the work of the
              > Section -- was the
              > accomplishment of the "repentance of Tikhon," which
              > as you are
              > probably aware, made an extremely unfavorable
              > impression on the
              > Russian monarchists and the right-leaning elements
              > in general, who
              > had seen in Tikhon, up to this time, an adamant
              > anti-Soviet figure."
              >
              > ======================
              >
              > An amazing document, indeed.
              >
              > How similar is that situation to the one that we
              > have now, with four
              > groups having separated themselves from the Russian
              > Orthodox Church
              > Outside of Russia, each with its own hierarchy, and
              > each disposed
              > inimically to one another and to the Russian
              > Orthodox Church Outside
              > of Russia itself (the Suzdalites, the
              > Mansonvillians, the Varnavites
              > and the Lazarites)!
              >
              > Yet we know exactly who was behind the splitting up
              > of the Russian
              > Orthdox Church in 1923--the 6th Section of the
              > Secret Department of
              > the OGPU--the precursor to the KGB-- and we know
              > whose end it really served.
              >
              > Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian
              > Orthodox Church
              > Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end
              > does it really serve?
              >
              > I address those who are in these split-off groups:
              >
              > Do you realize whose cause you are serving by
              > separating from your
              > lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
              >
              > With love in Christ,
              >
              > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: HOCNA left ROCOR in 1986, ROAC in 1995, and ROCiE in 2001. But the breakthrough in relations with the Moscow Patriarchate only came in the fall of
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 2, 2006
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                Peter Bushunow wrote:

                > But you have put the cause on its head.
                > These splits were precipitated exactly because ROCOR began approaching
                > the MP to negotiate.

                JRS: HOCNA left ROCOR in 1986, ROAC in 1995, and ROCiE in 2001.

                But the breakthrough in relations with the Moscow Patriarchate only came in the fall of 2003,
                when President Putin and Metropolitan Laurus finally met in New York.

                So what is "on its head" is the above statement.

                The splits had already come years before there was any offical ROCOR contact with the MP
                bishops.

                Furthermore, the first steps were not taken by ROCOR.

                > They were worsened because priests and bishops,
                > without prior authorization and consensus of the synod of bishops and a
                > proper sobor began communicating with those in another jurisdiction.

                JRS: On the contrary, the question of such meetings were discussed and decided by the
                Synod of Bishops, after the invitation by President Putin, and before Metropolitan Laurus
                went to Russia (in May of 2004) or meetings with the Patriarchal bishops began.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • frvictor@comcast.net
                I see things from a different angle than Dr. Bushunow, for whom I have great love and respect. The cause of divisions started well before we entered dialog
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2006
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                  I see things from a different angle than Dr. Bushunow, for whom I have great love and respect. The cause of divisions started well before we entered dialog with the Moscow Patriachate. The Epistle from the Sobor of Bishops in 2000 (under the chairmanship of Metropolitan Vitaly), noted with sorrow the divisions within our Church at that time! Not only was this well before any official dialog between the two parts of the Russian Church, but even before the academic conferences which first occurred in Hungary under the guidance of Bishop Daniel of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

                  The cause of any problems now, it seems to me, is a direct result of disobedience or rather lack of faith in the Church. I remember Dr. Bushunow's rector, Fr. Gregory, stating on a number of occasions in his class on Pastoral Theology over a decade ago, that if we all simply listen to our bishops, and if we were obedient to them, there would be no problems in our Church. While this may be a rather simplistic statement, it was at its core a sound statement of Orthodox faith rooted in the writings of the Church Fathers such as St. Ignatius the God-bearer. I think this echoes well Fr. Alexander's point, which was made from a different starting point, that is history of the Russian Church, as opposed to simply faith.

                  There is something else I wish to respond to. The record clearly shows that we are not "just" joining "with those who are influenced by the soviet system." Just as they are not "just" joining those who are influenced by Western materialism, protestant attitude, and problematic democratic concepts as some in Russia believe. [Remember, there are those who are opposed to this in Russia because, among other things, we have accepted Social Securety numbers, pay taxes to a government which bombed an Orthodox country Serbia, and our president in not an Orthodox Christian nor takes Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church! Others are oppposed to this because this would reaffirm the liturgical and theological conservatism within the Moscow Patriarchate.]

                  What has occured in the history of the Russian Church over the past two years is a thorough, painstaking, and very long process of honest dialog -- and for the first time mutual listening -- vis-�-vis the total sum of issues that have concerned the Russian Church Abroad for almost a century. We will not just join. If that perception exists, than I suggest a systematic review of all that has been posted on the Synod website over the past three years. The reality is that it is possible that our bishops may now decide that the time has come to remove the ecclesiastical hindrances for concelebration which our bishops imposed, since the historical circumstance of division as noted in our Constitution have vanished, and that the dogmatic and canonical issues seemed to have been resolved in accordance to Orthodox Church Tradition as expressed in the joint documents.

                  I wish to make two other points at this time. First, historically the Church has resolved much more serious issues in the past, over a much shorter period of time. Second, I am actually encouraged by what I have heard in talking to a number of people over the past two weeks. There are a number of delegates to the Sobor who still have questions, concerns, and nervous about reconciliation. However, all with whom I have spoken to, have great trust in our First Hierarch and the Counciliar judgments of our Sobor of Bishops. Thus, while different opinions may perhaps be expressed to the benefit of Church, I sense today that nearly all will uphold the Orthodox Christian concept of obedience to the conciliar decisions of the our hierarchs. I think this unity would give joy to not only to Fr. Alexander, myself, and Dr. Bushunow, but to all members of the Russian Church Abroad, and friends of the Russian Church Abroad on this list.

                  Wishing all a fruitful Great Lent,
                  Priest Victor Boldewskul
                  -------------- Original message --------------
                  From: "Bushunow, Peter" <peter.bushunow@...>

                  > Father Alexander Lebedeff writes:
                  > >Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
                  > >Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
                  > serve?
                  >
                  > >I address those who are in these split-off groups:
                  >
                  > >Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
                  > >lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
                  >
                  > >With love in Christ,
                  >
                  > >Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                  >
                  > Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are indeed the work of
                  > the devil and his helpers. But you have put the cause on its head.
                  > These splits were precipitated exactly because ROCOR began approaching
                  > the MP to negotiate. They were worsened because priests and bishops,
                  > without prior authorization and consensus of the synod of bishops and a
                  > proper sobor began communicating with those in another jurisdiction.
                  > Yes, this indeed is how the soviet, God hating authorities work, by
                  > dividing and conquering, by confusing, by sophistry.
                  >
                  > It is absolutely inappropriate to conclude that we should just join with
                  > those who are influenced by the soviet system, and so tragic that many
                  > of the proponents of subservience to the MP have condemned their
                  > brothers and sisters in the diaspora who do not agree with them.
                  >
                  > Yes, let us make sure we retain communion in our own part of the Russian
                  > church before we approach such difficult and controversial questions as
                  > eccliastic acceptance of the MP.
                  >
                  > Peter
                  >
                  > **********************************************************************
                  > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
                  > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
                  > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it from
                  > your system.
                  >
                  > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for
                  > the presence of computer viruses.
                  >
                  > Thank You,
                  > Viahealth
                  > **********************************************************************
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • gene703
                  It is hard on the surface to disagree with a single word you say. But, if you examine some assumptions underlying your argument things do look a bit different.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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                    It is hard on the surface to disagree with a single word you say. But, if you examine some assumptions underlying your argument things do look a bit different. Let me argue for the paranoid side because as president Nixon once said "even paranoid people have enemies" :-)

                    Russian church does look very different from 20 years ago, no doubt. But who allowed it to evolve into what it is now and who are the people currently constituting it's upper management ? It's a common knowledge that perestroika was closely managed by KGB, it is also a common knowledge that all Russian political parties are created and controlled directly from Kremlin, where since 2000 "Piterskie Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes you think situation in Russian Church is any different ? Can you be 100% sure there is no Mr. Tuchkov Jr. from the Committee on Cults Control still lurking somewhere in the background with dossiers in hand ? Didn't THEY directly appoint current Patriarch and many of his senior bishops to their posts ? Would it be to paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox renaissance of the last 20 years was a Potemkin's village to a large degree at least in the ranks of upper management ? Then again, who can deny that millions of Russian people are back
                    in church taling communion ? Lord does work in mysterious ways.

                    So, next time you speak to one of these negotiators from Moscow ask yourself a question. Could it be that the person I am talking to, person wearing podryasnik and a pectoral cross or a panagia is actually a highly trained intelligence operative who speaks church language and will say pretty much anything to get you from point A to point B while really advancing the cause of Russian Federation foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President Putin himself showing up in Synod was sure weird. Can you imagine American president adjudicating church politics ?

                    While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did not bomb orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe and while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a real born again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his heart after series of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.

                    yours truly
                    Gene T




                    frvictor@... wrote:
                    I see things from a different angle than Dr. Bushunow, for whom I have great love and respect. The cause of divisions started well before we entered dialog with the Moscow Patriachate. The Epistle from the Sobor of Bishops in 2000 (under the chairmanship of Metropolitan Vitaly), noted with sorrow the divisions within our Church at that time! Not only was this well before any official dialog between the two parts of the Russian Church, but even before the academic conferences which first occurred in Hungary under the guidance of Bishop Daniel of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

                    The cause of any problems now, it seems to me, is a direct result of disobedience or rather lack of faith in the Church. I remember Dr. Bushunow's rector, Fr. Gregory, stating on a number of occasions in his class on Pastoral Theology over a decade ago, that if we all simply listen to our bishops, and if we were obedient to them, there would be no problems in our Church. While this may be a rather simplistic statement, it was at its core a sound statement of Orthodox faith rooted in the writings of the Church Fathers such as St. Ignatius the God-bearer. I think this echoes well Fr. Alexander's point, which was made from a different starting point, that is history of the Russian Church, as opposed to simply faith.

                    There is something else I wish to respond to. The record clearly shows that we are not "just" joining "with those who are influenced by the soviet system." Just as they are not "just" joining those who are influenced by Western materialism, protestant attitude, and problematic democratic concepts as some in Russia believe. [Remember, there are those who are opposed to this in Russia because, among other things, we have accepted Social Securety numbers, pay taxes to a government which bombed an Orthodox country Serbia, and our president in not an Orthodox Christian nor takes Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church! Others are oppposed to this because this would reaffirm the liturgical and theological conservatism within the Moscow Patriarchate.]

                    What has occured in the history of the Russian Church over the past two years is a thorough, painstaking, and very long process of honest dialog -- and for the first time mutual listening -- vis-à-vis the total sum of issues that have concerned the Russian Church Abroad for almost a century. We will not just join. If that perception exists, than I suggest a systematic review of all that has been posted on the Synod website over the past three years. The reality is that it is possible that our bishops may now decide that the time has come to remove the ecclesiastical hindrances for concelebration which our bishops imposed, since the historical circumstance of division as noted in our Constitution have vanished, and that the dogmatic and canonical issues seemed to have been resolved in accordance to Orthodox Church Tradition as expressed in the joint documents.

                    I wish to make two other points at this time. First, historically the Church has resolved much more serious issues in the past, over a much shorter period of time. Second, I am actually encouraged by what I have heard in talking to a number of people over the past two weeks. There are a number of delegates to the Sobor who still have questions, concerns, and nervous about reconciliation. However, all with whom I have spoken to, have great trust in our First Hierarch and the Counciliar judgments of our Sobor of Bishops. Thus, while different opinions may perhaps be expressed to the benefit of Church, I sense today that nearly all will uphold the Orthodox Christian concept of obedience to the conciliar decisions of the our hierarchs. I think this unity would give joy to not only to Fr. Alexander, myself, and Dr. Bushunow, but to all members of the Russian Church Abroad, and friends of the Russian Church Abroad on this list.

                    Wishing all a fruitful Great Lent,
                    Priest Victor Boldewskul
                    -------------- Original message --------------
                    From: "Bushunow, Peter"


                    > Father Alexander Lebedeff writes:
                    > >Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
                    > >Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
                    > serve?
                    >
                    > >I address those who are in these split-off groups:
                    >
                    > >Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
                    > >lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
                    >
                    > >With love in Christ,
                    >
                    > >Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                    >
                    > Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are indeed the work of
                    > the devil and his helpers. But you have put the cause on its head.
                    > These splits were precipitated exactly because ROCOR began approaching
                    > the MP to negotiate. They were worsened because priests and bishops,
                    > without prior authorization and consensus of the synod of bishops and a
                    > proper sobor began communicating with those in another jurisdiction.
                    > Yes, this indeed is how the soviet, God hating authorities work, by
                    > dividing and conquering, by confusing, by sophistry.
                    >
                    > It is absolutely inappropriate to conclude that we should just join with
                    > those who are influenced by the soviet system, and so tragic that many
                    > of the proponents of subservience to the MP have condemned their
                    > brothers and sisters in the diaspora who do not agree with them.
                    >
                    > Yes, let us make sure we retain communion in our own part of the Russian
                    > church before we approach such difficult and controversial questions as
                    > eccliastic acceptance of the MP.
                    >
                    > Peter
                    >
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                  • boulia_1
                    ... not bomb orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe and while our President
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did
                      not bomb orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was
                      standing in the way of our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe
                      and while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a real born
                      again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his heart after series
                      of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with
                      Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.
                      >
                      >

                      We bombed Orthodox Serbia, supposedly defending Kosovo on the behalf
                      of those poor (Muslim) "ethnic Albanians" (what exactly was the
                      geopolitical interest again?). That was under that "protivnaya Baba"
                      Albright and her boss, Wee Willy Clinton. Who, by the way, loved to
                      wave to the cameras as HE walked to church, Bible in hand. I'm not
                      dissing President Bush or necessarily questioning his belief in our
                      Lord. But, if we're going to be cynical about our leaders (such as
                      Bishops and such), then let's not be naive about those photo-ops that
                      make our "God-fearing" (?!) commanders-in-chief look so "admirable."

                      elizabeth
                    • Vladimir Kozyreff
                      Dear Elizabeth, The strategic interest for the US to have bases in Kosovo is obvious. Who admires Presidents Clinton and Bush? We just learned today that Prime
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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                        Dear Elizabeth,



                        The strategic interest for the US to have bases in Kosovo is obvious.



                        Who admires Presidents Clinton and Bush? We just learned today that Prime Minister Blair too listens to God when making decisions on Iraq. Strange how they slander our Tsars for being orthodox, and nevertheless see themselves too as anointed by God.





                        "L'homme n'est ni ange ni bête, et le malheur veut que qui veut fairel'ange fait la bête" (Bl.Pascal, Pensées)



                        "Man is neither an angel nor a beast, and it is unfortunate that whoever wants to act as an angel acts as a beast".



                        In Christ,



                        Vladimir Kozyreff



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 9:25 PM
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Politics and Presidents (offshoot of Who Is Really Behind the Schisms?)


                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> >
                        >> While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did
                        > not bomb orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was
                        > standing in the way of our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe
                        > and while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a real born
                        > again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his heart after series
                        > of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with
                        > Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        > We bombed Orthodox Serbia, supposedly defending Kosovo on the behalf
                        > of those poor (Muslim) "ethnic Albanians" (what exactly was the
                        > geopolitical interest again?). That was under that "protivnaya Baba"
                        > Albright and her boss, Wee Willy Clinton. Who, by the way, loved to
                        > wave to the cameras as HE walked to church, Bible in hand. I'm not
                        > dissing President Bush or necessarily questioning his belief in our
                        > Lord. But, if we're going to be cynical about our leaders (such as
                        > Bishops and such), then let's not be naive about those photo-ops that
                        > make our "God-fearing" (?!) commanders-in-chief look so "admirable."
                        >
                        > elizabeth
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mitin, Stiva
                        ... I too have thought of the Potemkin Village scenario. However, there needs to be a reason for building the village... 1) The whole thing is a plot to
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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                          On 3/4/06, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > 2000 "Piterskie Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes you think
                          > situation in Russian Church is any different ? Can you be 100% sure there is
                          > no Mr. Tuchkov Jr. from the Committee on Cults Control still lurking
                          > somewhere in the background with dossiers in hand ? Didn't THEY directly
                          > appoint current Patriarch and many of his senior bishops to their posts ?
                          > Would it be to paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox renaissance of
                          > the last 20 years was a Potemkin's village to a large degree at least in the
                          > ranks of upper management ? Then again, who can deny that millions of
                          > Russian people are back in church taling communion ? Lord does work in
                          > mysterious ways.


                          I too have thought of the Potemkin Village scenario. However, there needs
                          to be a reason for building the village...

                          1) The whole thing is a plot to ensnare ROCOR and do away with it once and
                          for all/gain all her valuable real estate. I dismissed this since, ROCOR is
                          such a tiny drop in the ocean and I can't figure out what the cost-benefit
                          would be (after all, millions and millions have been spent in
                          rebuilding/refurbishing/regilding in Russia.. for what, all to swallo
                          ROCOR?). Also, this would have to be one heck of a village, since so many
                          zarubezhniki have travelled to Russia and witnessed Orthodox life in so many
                          areas and places; it is impossible for "those behind the scenes" to have
                          built Potemkin villages all over Russia (If you doubt this, just surf the
                          net and visit all the Orthodox sites in Russia, with there myriad of photos
                          and articles detailing a vibrant spiritual life.)

                          2) Impress the West at how free and open Russia is. This one can also be
                          dismissed out of hand, since all Western governments are basically
                          areligious. With the exception of possibly Italy, Ireland, Poland and maybe
                          the US, most people in the West run the gamut of agnostic to atheist, so
                          they really couldn't are less. In fact, an Orthodox and religious Russia
                          would be seen as a threat, an anachronism and would not be at all welcome to
                          the multicultural humanistic XXI century mosaic. So, if the siloviki are
                          creating an Orthodox Potemkin Village to impress the West, they are acting
                          on some pretty fairly fault intelligence.

                          operative who speaks church language and will say pretty much anything to
                          > get you from point A to point B while really advancing the cause of Russian
                          > Federation foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President Putin himself
                          > showing up in Synod was sure weird. Can you imagine American president
                          > adjudicating church politics ?


                          Advancing the foreign policy cause of the RF? Again, I don't see how a
                          viable, free Russian Church helps Russia at all (in the eyes of the West,
                          that is). President Putin at Synod was "weird?" This maybe termed
                          Too-long-in the-Diaspora Syndrome. When the Sovs were in power, we
                          complained they were militantly atheist. When Yelstin was prez, he was a
                          drunk and just went to church for pokaz. Now that Presdent Putin seems to be
                          religious and takes an active role/interest in the Church, we say he should
                          stay in the Kremlin and mind his business, like President Bush!! What
                          happened to having a Sovereign, anointed by God? There isn't one now, but
                          having a Russian president take what appears to be a genuine interest in the
                          Church is a Bad Thing?


                          While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did not bomb
                          > orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of
                          > our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe
                          >
                          > Beg to disagree. I doubt few--if any--of the communist nomenklatura were
                          killed in the shameful bombing of Serbia. We do know, however, that a
                          Serbian Orthodox priest had his head blown off, when he was hit by a falling
                          bomb leaving his church. We do know that the US and NATO bombed all of the
                          bridges over the Danube, which caused disruption and distress for ordinary
                          people in not only Serbia but in all the countries that use the Danube. We
                          also know that uranium-enriched weapons do not discriminate against Orthodox
                          or communist Serb.

                          and while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a real born again
                          > Christian who consciously let Jesus into his heart after series of
                          > conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with Bible in
                          > hand which I actually find very admirable..
                          >
                          >
                          Did you find it admirable when Clinton also was shown coming out of church
                          carrying The Bible? Is allowing Jesus into one's heart after talking to
                          Billy Graham part of the Branch theory of Ecumenism? Again, I am taken
                          aback--to say the least--that a religious Putin is bad (and weird) and a
                          religious--but heterodox--Bush is good!!

                          Stiva.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • frvictor@comcast.net
                          Dear Gene, First, I really liked your first sentence! I am also pleased that you agree that the Russian Church looks very different today than it did twenty
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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                            Dear Gene,
                            First, I really liked your first sentence!
                            I am also pleased that you agree that the Russian Church looks very different today than it did twenty years ago. As to your question, "who allowed it to evolve into what it is now..." well, judging from the fruits, I would suggest that it could only be by the Grace of the Holy Spirit.

                            As to my original comment vis-a-vis Vladimir Vladimirovich and the bombing of Serbia, it was in the context of what some Russians over there feel. I would suggest, though, that many Orthodox Serbs would disagree with parts of what you wrote vis-a-vis "we did not bomb orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia..."

                            In Christ,
                            Priest Victor Boldewskul

                            -------------- Original message --------------
                            From: gene703 <gene703@...>

                            > It is hard on the surface to disagree with a single word you say. But, if you
                            > examine some assumptions underlying your argument things do look a bit
                            > different. Let me argue for the paranoid side because as president Nixon once
                            > said "even paranoid people have enemies" :-)
                            >
                            > Russian church does look very different from 20 years ago, no doubt. But who
                            > allowed it to evolve into what it is now and who are the people currently
                            > constituting it's upper management ? It's a common knowledge that perestroika
                            > was closely managed by KGB, it is also a common knowledge that all Russian
                            > political parties are created and controlled directly from Kremlin, where since
                            > 2000 "Piterskie Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes you think
                            > situation in Russian Church is any different ? Can you be 100% sure there is no
                            > Mr. Tuchkov Jr. from the Committee on Cults Control still lurking somewhere in
                            > the background with dossiers in hand ? Didn't THEY directly appoint current
                            > Patriarch and many of his senior bishops to their posts ? Would it be to
                            > paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox renaissance of the last 20 years was
                            > a Potemkin's village to a large degree at least in the ranks of upper management
                            > ? Then again, who can deny that millions of Russian people are back
                            > in church taling communion ? Lord does work in mysterious ways.
                            >
                            > So, next time you speak to one of these negotiators from Moscow ask yourself a
                            > question. Could it be that the person I am talking to, person wearing podryasnik
                            > and a pectoral cross or a panagia is actually a highly trained intelligence
                            > operative who speaks church language and will say pretty much anything to get
                            > you from point A to point B while really advancing the cause of Russian
                            > Federation foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President Putin himself
                            > showing up in Synod was sure weird. Can you imagine American president
                            > adjudicating church politics ?
                            >
                            > While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did not bomb
                            > orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of our
                            > geopolitical interest in Southern Europe and while our President is surely not
                            > Orthodox he is a real born again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his
                            > heart after series of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church
                            > regularly with Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.
                            >
                            > yours truly
                            > Gene T
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > frvictor@... wrote:
                            > I see things from a different angle than Dr. Bushunow, for whom I have great
                            > love and respect. The cause of divisions started well before we entered dialog
                            > with the Moscow Patriachate. The Epistle from the Sobor of Bishops in 2000
                            > (under the chairmanship of Metropolitan Vitaly), noted with sorrow the divisions
                            > within our Church at that time! Not only was this well before any official
                            > dialog between the two parts of the Russian Church, but even before the academic
                            > conferences which first occurred in Hungary under the guidance of Bishop Daniel
                            > of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
                            >
                            > The cause of any problems now, it seems to me, is a direct result of
                            > disobedience or rather lack of faith in the Church. I remember Dr. Bushunow's
                            > rector, Fr. Gregory, stating on a number of occasions in his class on Pastoral
                            > Theology over a decade ago, that if we all simply listen to our bishops, and if
                            > we were obedient to them, there would be no problems in our Church. While this
                            > may be a rather simplistic statement, it was at its core a sound statement of
                            > Orthodox faith rooted in the writings of the Church Fathers such as St. Ignatius
                            > the God-bearer. I think this echoes well Fr. Alexander's point, which was made
                            > from a different starting point, that is history of the Russian Church, as
                            > opposed to simply faith.
                            >
                            > There is something else I wish to respond to. The record clearly shows that we
                            > are not "just" joining "with those who are influenced by the soviet system."
                            > Just as they are not "just" joining those who are influenced by Western
                            > materialism, protestant attitude, and problematic democratic concepts as some in
                            > Russia believe. [Remember, there are those who are opposed to this in Russia
                            > because, among other things, we have accepted Social Securety numbers, pay taxes
                            > to a government which bombed an Orthodox country Serbia, and our president in
                            > not an Orthodox Christian nor takes Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church!
                            > Others are oppposed to this because this would reaffirm the liturgical and
                            > theological conservatism within the Moscow Patriarchate.]
                            >
                            > What has occured in the history of the Russian Church over the past two years is
                            > a thorough, painstaking, and very long process of honest dialog -- and for the
                            > first time mutual listening -- vis-�-vis the total sum of issues that have
                            > concerned the Russian Church Abroad for almost a century. We will not just join.
                            > If that perception exists, than I suggest a systematic review of all that has
                            > been posted on the Synod website over the past three years. The reality is that
                            > it is possible that our bishops may now decide that the time has come to remove
                            > the ecclesiastical hindrances for concelebration which our bishops imposed,
                            > since the historical circumstance of division as noted in our Constitution have
                            > vanished, and that the dogmatic and canonical issues seemed to have been
                            > resolved in accordance to Orthodox Church Tradition as expressed in the joint
                            > documents.
                            >
                            > I wish to make two other points at this time. First, historically the Church has
                            > resolved much more serious issues in the past, over a much shorter period of
                            > time. Second, I am actually encouraged by what I have heard in talking to a
                            > number of people over the past two weeks. There are a number of delegates to the
                            > Sobor who still have questions, concerns, and nervous about reconciliation.
                            > However, all with whom I have spoken to, have great trust in our First Hierarch
                            > and the Counciliar judgments of our Sobor of Bishops. Thus, while different
                            > opinions may perhaps be expressed to the benefit of Church, I sense today that
                            > nearly all will uphold the Orthodox Christian concept of obedience to the
                            > conciliar decisions of the our hierarchs. I think this unity would give joy to
                            > not only to Fr. Alexander, myself, and Dr. Bushunow, but to all members of the
                            > Russian Church Abroad, and friends of the Russian Church Abroad on this list.
                            >
                            > Wishing all a fruitful Great Lent,
                            > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                            > From: "Bushunow, Peter"
                            >
                            >
                            > > Father Alexander Lebedeff writes:
                            > > >Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
                            > > >Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
                            > > serve?
                            > >
                            > > >I address those who are in these split-off groups:
                            > >
                            > > >Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
                            > > >lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
                            > >
                            > > >With love in Christ,
                            > >
                            > > >Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            > >
                            > > Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are indeed the work of
                            > > the devil and his helpers. But you have put the cause on its head.
                            > > These splits were precipitated exactly because ROCOR began approaching
                            > > the MP to negotiate. They were worsened because priests and bishops,
                            > > without prior authorization and consensus of the synod of bishops and a
                            > > proper sobor began communicating with those in another jurisdiction.
                            > > Yes, this indeed is how the soviet, God hating authorities work, by
                            > > dividing and conquering, by confusing, by sophistry.
                            > >
                            > > It is absolutely inappropriate to conclude that we should just join with
                            > > those who are influenced by the soviet system, and so tragic that many
                            > > of the proponents of subservience to the MP have condemned their
                            > > brothers and sisters in the diaspora who do not agree with them.
                            > >
                            > > Yes, let us make sure we retain communion in our own part of the Russian
                            > > church before we approach such difficult and controversial questions as
                            > > eccliastic acceptance of the MP.
                            > >
                            > > Peter
                            > >
                            > > **********************************************************************
                            > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
                            > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
                            > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it from
                            > > your system.
                            > >
                            > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for
                            > > the presence of computer viruses.
                            > >
                            > > Thank You,
                            > > Viahealth
                            > > **********************************************************************
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
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                            > Brings words and photos together (easily) with
                            > PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
                            >
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                          • larry most
                            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Gene, Let us say that a whole bunch of Churches and Monasteries were destroyed be our Islamic friends , and
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 4, 2006
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                              GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                              Dear Gene,
                              Let us say that a whole bunch of Churches and
                              Monasteries were destroyed be our Islamic "friends",
                              and our leaders didn't do much to stop it. I realise
                              that the Serbs weren't exactly "wonderful", but you
                              really need to read WW II history to see why.
                              Love in Christ,
                              Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                              --- gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:

                              > It is hard on the surface to disagree with a single
                              > word you say. But, if you examine some assumptions
                              > underlying your argument things do look a bit
                              > different. Let me argue for the paranoid side
                              > because as president Nixon once said "even paranoid
                              > people have enemies" :-)
                              >
                              > Russian church does look very different from 20
                              > years ago, no doubt. But who allowed it to evolve
                              > into what it is now and who are the people currently
                              > constituting it's upper management ? It's a common
                              > knowledge that perestroika was closely managed by
                              > KGB, it is also a common knowledge that all Russian
                              > political parties are created and controlled
                              > directly from Kremlin, where since 2000 "Piterskie
                              > Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes you
                              > think situation in Russian Church is any different ?
                              > Can you be 100% sure there is no Mr. Tuchkov Jr.
                              > from the Committee on Cults Control still lurking
                              > somewhere in the background with dossiers in hand ?
                              > Didn't THEY directly appoint current Patriarch and
                              > many of his senior bishops to their posts ? Would it
                              > be to paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox
                              > renaissance of the last 20 years was a Potemkin's
                              > village to a large degree at least in the ranks of
                              > upper management ? Then again, who can deny that
                              > millions of Russian people are back
                              > in church taling communion ? Lord does work in
                              > mysterious ways.
                              >
                              > So, next time you speak to one of these
                              > negotiators from Moscow ask yourself a question.
                              > Could it be that the person I am talking to, person
                              > wearing podryasnik and a pectoral cross or a panagia
                              > is actually a highly trained intelligence operative
                              > who speaks church language and will say pretty much
                              > anything to get you from point A to point B while
                              > really advancing the cause of Russian Federation
                              > foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President
                              > Putin himself showing up in Synod was sure weird.
                              > Can you imagine American president adjudicating
                              > church politics ?
                              >
                              > While we are on the subject of politics and
                              > presidents. We did not bomb orthodox Serbia, we
                              > bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way
                              > of our geopolitical interest in Southern Europe and
                              > while our President is surely not Orthodox he is a
                              > real born again Christian who consciously let Jesus
                              > into his heart after series of conversation with
                              > Rev. Graham and who attend church regularly with
                              > Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.
                              >
                              > yours truly
                              > Gene T
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > frvictor@... wrote:
                              > I see things from a different angle than Dr.
                              > Bushunow, for whom I have great love and respect.
                              > The cause of divisions started well before we
                              > entered dialog with the Moscow Patriachate. The
                              > Epistle from the Sobor of Bishops in 2000 (under the
                              > chairmanship of Metropolitan Vitaly), noted with
                              > sorrow the divisions within our Church at that time!
                              > Not only was this well before any official dialog
                              > between the two parts of the Russian Church, but
                              > even before the academic conferences which first
                              > occurred in Hungary under the guidance of Bishop
                              > Daniel of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
                              >
                              > The cause of any problems now, it seems to me, is a
                              > direct result of disobedience or rather lack of
                              > faith in the Church. I remember Dr. Bushunow's
                              > rector, Fr. Gregory, stating on a number of
                              > occasions in his class on Pastoral Theology over a
                              > decade ago, that if we all simply listen to our
                              > bishops, and if we were obedient to them, there
                              > would be no problems in our Church. While this may
                              > be a rather simplistic statement, it was at its core
                              > a sound statement of Orthodox faith rooted in the
                              > writings of the Church Fathers such as St. Ignatius
                              > the God-bearer. I think this echoes well Fr.
                              > Alexander's point, which was made from a different
                              > starting point, that is history of the Russian
                              > Church, as opposed to simply faith.
                              >
                              > There is something else I wish to respond to. The
                              > record clearly shows that we are not "just" joining
                              > "with those who are influenced by the soviet
                              > system." Just as they are not "just" joining those
                              > who are influenced by Western materialism,
                              > protestant attitude, and problematic democratic
                              > concepts as some in Russia believe. [Remember, there
                              > are those who are opposed to this in Russia because,
                              > among other things, we have accepted Social Securety
                              > numbers, pay taxes to a government which bombed an
                              > Orthodox country Serbia, and our president in not an
                              > Orthodox Christian nor takes Holy Communion in the
                              > Orthodox Church! Others are oppposed to this because
                              > this would reaffirm the liturgical and theological
                              > conservatism within the Moscow Patriarchate.]
                              >
                              > What has occured in the history of the Russian
                              > Church over the past two years is a thorough,
                              > painstaking, and very long process of honest dialog
                              > -- and for the first time mutual listening --
                              > vis-à-vis the total sum of issues that have
                              > concerned the Russian Church Abroad for almost a
                              > century. We will not just join. If that perception
                              > exists, than I suggest a systematic review of all
                              > that has been posted on the Synod website over the
                              > past three years. The reality is that it is possible
                              > that our bishops may now decide that the time has
                              > come to remove the ecclesiastical hindrances for
                              > concelebration which our bishops imposed, since the
                              > historical circumstance of division as noted in our
                              > Constitution have vanished, and that the dogmatic
                              > and canonical issues seemed to have been resolved in
                              > accordance to Orthodox Church Tradition as expressed
                              > in the joint documents.
                              >
                              > I wish to make two other points at this time. First,
                              > historically the Church has resolved much more
                              > serious issues in the past, over a much shorter
                              > period of time. Second, I am actually encouraged by
                              > what I have heard in talking to a number of people
                              > over the past two weeks. There are a number of
                              > delegates to the Sobor who still have questions,
                              > concerns, and nervous about reconciliation. However,
                              > all with whom I have spoken to, have great trust in
                              > our First Hierarch and the Counciliar judgments of
                              > our Sobor of Bishops. Thus, while different opinions
                              > may perhaps be expressed to the benefit of Church, I
                              > sense today that nearly all will uphold the Orthodox
                              > Christian concept of obedience to the conciliar
                              > decisions of the our hierarchs. I think this unity
                              > would give joy to not only to Fr. Alexander, myself,
                              > and Dr. Bushunow, but to all members of the Russian
                              > Church Abroad, and friends of the Russian Church
                              > Abroad on this list.
                              >
                              > Wishing all a fruitful Great Lent,
                              > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                              > -------------- Original message --------------
                              > From: "Bushunow, Peter"
                              >
                              >
                              > > Father Alexander Lebedeff writes:
                              > > >Who is really behind the splitting up of the
                              > Russian Orthodox Church
                              > > >Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose
                              > end does it really
                              > > serve?
                              > >
                              > > >I address those who are in these split-off
                              > groups:
                              > >
                              > > >Do you realize whose cause you are serving by
                              > separating from your
                              > > >lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
                              > >
                              > > >With love in Christ,
                              > >
                              > > >Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                              > >
                              > > Yes, Father, these splits are a tragedy! They are
                              > indeed the work of
                              > > the devil and his helpers. But you have put the
                              > cause on its head.
                              > > These splits were precipitated exactly because
                              > ROCOR began approaching
                              > > the MP to negotiate. They were worsened because
                              > priests and bishops,
                              > > without prior authorization and consensus of the
                              > synod of bishops and a
                              > > proper sobor began communicating with those in
                              > another jurisdiction.
                              > > Yes, this indeed is how the soviet, God hating
                              > authorities work, by
                              > > dividing and conquering, by confusing, by
                              > sophistry.
                              > >
                              > > It is absolutely inappropriate to conclude that we
                              > should just join with
                              > > those who are influenced by the soviet system, and
                              > so tragic that many
                              > > of the proponents of subservience to the MP have
                              > condemned their
                              > > brothers and sisters in the diaspora who do not
                              > agree with them.
                              > >
                              > > Yes, let us make sure we retain communion in our
                              > own part of the Russian
                              > > church before we approach such difficult and
                              > controversial questions as
                              > > eccliastic acceptance of the MP.
                              > >
                              > > Peter
                              >
                              === message truncated ===


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                            • antiquariu@aol.com
                              In a message dated 3/4/2006 2:49:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gene703@yahoo.com writes: Russian church does look very different from 20 years
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 5, 2006
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                                In a message dated 3/4/2006 2:49:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                gene703@... writes:

                                <<Snip,,,>>
                                Russian church does look very different from 20 years ago, no doubt. But
                                who allowed it to evolve into what it is now and who are the people currently
                                constituting it's upper management ? It's a common knowledge that perestroika
                                was closely managed by KGB, it is also a common knowledge that all Russian
                                political parties are created and controlled directly from Kremlin,

                                [Vova H.] Common knowledge, where Russians are concerned, is usually a red
                                herring. Look at the approving manner in which many Russians seek out plots,
                                conspiracies, etc, involving Masons, Jews, and nefarious international
                                councils.

                                where since 2000 "Piterskie Siloviki" are officially in charge. What makes
                                you think situation in Russian Church is any different ? Can you be 100% sure
                                there is no Mr. Tuchkov Jr. from the Committee on Cults Control still
                                lurking somewhere in the background with dossiers in hand ? Didn't THEY directly
                                appoint current Patriarch and many of his senior bishops to their posts ? Would
                                it be to paranoid to suggest that the whole Orthodox renaissance of the last
                                20 years was a Potemkin's village to a large degree at least in the ranks of
                                upper management ? Then again, who can deny that millions of Russian people
                                are back
                                in church taling communion ? Lord does work in mysterious ways.


                                [Vova H.] Thanks for the recovery in the last line, Gene. And that is
                                important. But please, lose the "they." It detracts from the strong points in
                                the rest of your argument.


                                So, next time you speak to one of these negotiators from Moscow ask yourself
                                a question. Could it be that the person I am talking to, person wearing
                                podryasnik and a pectoral cross or a panagia is actually a highly trained
                                intelligence operative who speaks church language and will say pretty much anything
                                to get you from point A to point B while really advancing the cause of
                                Russian Federation foreign policy as defined by "siloviki" ? President Putin
                                himself showing up in Synod was sure weird. Can you imagine American president
                                adjudicating church politics ?

                                [Vova H.] Naaah, 'cause it's just not that important in the big picture.
                                The Russian Church, and the Russian Church Abroad, and even the Byvshij Soyuz,
                                had to get their respective acts together to keep from becoming historically
                                irrelevant. While Russians are busy coining new "-isms" the rest of the
                                world marches onward. As far as adjudicating church politics is concerned, the
                                President does not have a majority, or even a plurality, of the population
                                adhering to the same creed, regardless of how weakly they might adhere to it.
                                Lt Col Putin does. Besides, there is that old Latin question, "Cui bono?"
                                What good does it do to have these siloviki calling shots, since no one in
                                the rest of the civilized world cares even one iota. Watching Russian oligarch
                                -- party -- mafia -- gosbez politics can be fun for some of us who study
                                this nonsense, but do you really think anyone not on a faculty cares? Not
                                outside of an extremely limited set of afficionados.

                                While we are on the subject of politics and presidents. We did not bomb
                                orthodox Serbia, we bombed communist Serbia that was standing in the way of our
                                geopolitical interest in Southern Europe and while our President is surely not
                                Orthodox he is a real born again Christian who consciously let Jesus into his
                                heart after series of conversation with Rev. Graham and who attend church
                                regularly with Bible in hand which I actually find very admirable.

                                [Vova H.] Gene, this is your best call here, and I agree with you 100%.

                                And finally, on this Forgiveness Sunday, if I have done anything to offend,
                                wound or hurt, I humbly beg for forgivess,

                                In Christ,

                                Vladimir Hindrichs



















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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • kato_ny
                                Otets Alexander, Hello, its been awhile, bet everytime I find the extra time, I try to see whats going on the forum. Though ALL my MESSAGES here are
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 5, 2006
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                                  Otets Alexander,

                                  Hello, its been awhile, bet everytime I find the extra time, I try to
                                  see whats going on the forum. Though "ALL" my MESSAGES here are
                                  "MODERATED", it's that "LESS" interesting to post since "NOW" this is a
                                  controlled group. I wonder if this message will get through or not.

                                  Concerning your posting, I really find it quite amazing!

                                  WHO REALLY WANTED TO SPLIT AWAY FROM THE ROCA CHURCH IN THE FIRST PLACE?
                                  What reasons would you think that such groups have split away?

                                  The question you should ask yourself, "Is it possible that "outside new"
                                  forces tried to force the "old traditional" out of Synod, and bring
                                  "newcomers" into the church? What Forced the Suzdalites, the
                                  Mansonvillians, the Varnavites and the Lazarites to break away? Isn't
                                  that some sort of sign??? I mean, imagine the wave of people, including
                                  priests and parisioners, traditionalists, who saw something seriously
                                  change in the True Church of God...

                                  Metropolitan Vitaly is still alive and living a normal life in
                                  Mansonville. Have you or anyone from today's Synod, visited him, spoke
                                  to him? If he was that much senile, I think he would be inside a insane
                                  asylum. unfortunately, thats not the case... What also is quite strange,
                                  shouldn't all of you feel sorrow for him if he was that sick?
                                  Unfortunately thats not the case...

                                  So the question is, who forced him to retire? Was there a set plan in
                                  place, to push him out, create reasons that he's senile, and on
                                  medication, and can't serve the church? Isn't it bizarre that he's still
                                  running a Russian Orthodox Church jurisdiction, and that there are many
                                  followers that once belonged to the one true church?

                                  Who really is responsible for the Schism then?

                                  Now, as far as the MP concerned, most of you who are leading the process
                                  towards unity, don't really show that much care, to listen from many
                                  parisioners. Most of you have this thing built up inside of yourselves,
                                  that "WE ARE GOING TO UNITE AND THATS FINAL" Forget the rest, they can't
                                  do much anyway to stop the process...

                                  Your travels to Russia, meeting up with the MP, and the MP snake showing
                                  you the beautiful shinny apple, doesn't mean that they are that clean
                                  and truthful! The MP Hiearchy (inside the yolk), are mostly Soviet
                                  brought up, that was under the guidance once of the KGB. Now quite
                                  modern, far from handling a spying network, the MP church has become an
                                  ORGANIZATION, who's interest today is to generate capital. We are not
                                  talking about the Parisioners in Russia, or the priests and monks in the
                                  regions, we are talking about the MP within the Hiearchy... the top
                                  heads. There is no "spiritualness" in there. (TAM NETU ISTINI!) Just try
                                  talking to Nicholas Bashakov (sp?), the MP secretary. You know who I
                                  mean. he's a modern day priest... who has run away from my questions to
                                  him on several occasions I managed to bump into him.

                                  Did you ever speak to the members and priests of the ROCA jurisdictions
                                  during your travels in Russia? Did you ever want to find out from these
                                  people who baulk at the MP, and perhaps get a better understanding of
                                  the situation in their native country? Are you scared to do so, or you
                                  don't find the reasons for it, afraid that they will give you their two
                                  cents about the MP in a bad perspective.

                                  So to come to a small conclusion, you can study all you want from the
                                  KGB files of 1923, but that one document that will be eventually
                                  created, when the two churches (and if it does) unite and the
                                  parisioners will split up, YOUR NAME (as well as others) will be
                                  documented and responsbile for the Newly United Church. You will be
                                  responsible for the destruction of the once True Church, The Russian
                                  Orthodox Church Abroad. You literally will be signing it away, with
                                  proper homework study, only relying on some 1923 documents, and seeinga
                                  shiny apple that Pat Alexii has given you.

                                  Which apparently doesn't seem to bother most you at all. On the
                                  contrary, you are trying to rush the church to unite, and that's quite
                                  sad. That is so modern in todays society.

                                  So, who really is behind the schisms Fr Alexander?
                                  Who's dictating todays Church?
                                  Why the rush, and forgeting the past, and one of the best examples of
                                  the needs to unite (or not) when Jerricho and Hebron Churches were taken
                                  away from us by Force! I still never got any clear answers concerning
                                  those two events. I believe the Patriarch was in Power already. Were
                                  those good signs of understandings to unite now?

                                  Forgive me Father and Everyone here, if I have hurt anyones feelings or
                                  did someone something bad, on this Sunday of Forgiveness.

                                  Konstantin






                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                                  <lebedeff@...> wrote:
                                  > ======================
                                  >
                                  > An amazing document, indeed.
                                  >
                                  > How similar is that situation to the one that we have now, with four
                                  > groups having separated themselves from the Russian Orthodox Church
                                  > Outside of Russia, each with its own hierarchy, and each disposed
                                  > inimically to one another and to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
                                  > of Russia itself (the Suzdalites, the Mansonvillians, the Varnavites
                                  > and the Lazarites)!
                                  >
                                  > Yet we know exactly who was behind the splitting up of the Russian
                                  > Orthdox Church in 1923--the 6th Section of the Secret Department of
                                  > the OGPU--the precursor to the KGB-- and we know whose end it really
                                  served.
                                  >
                                  > Who is really behind the splitting up of the Russian Orthodox Church
                                  > Outside of Russia at the present time, and whose end does it really
                                  serve?
                                  >
                                  > I address those who are in these split-off groups:
                                  >
                                  > Do you realize whose cause you are serving by separating from your
                                  > lawful hierarchy and justifying this separation?
                                  >
                                  > With love in Christ,
                                  >
                                  > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Maureen Girard
                                  ... spoke ... insane ... Senility is NOT considered insanity. Senility can come from a variety of sources--the formation of metal-like placs on the brain,
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 6, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "kato_ny" <kato_ny@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Metropolitan Vitaly is still alive and living a normal life in
                                    > Mansonville. Have you or anyone from today's Synod, visited him,
                                    spoke
                                    > to him? If he was that much senile, I think he would be inside a
                                    insane
                                    > asylum. unfortunately, thats not the case...>>

                                    Senility is NOT considered insanity. Senility can come from a variety
                                    of sources--the formation of metal-like placs on the brain, general
                                    tissue failure impacting the structure of brain cells, various medical
                                    disorders, etc. NOBODY goes to the "insane asylum" for these types of
                                    medical disorders. These unfortunate folks are usually treated at
                                    home. Of course, memory is usually involved. In many cases, these
                                    people can recall events from their childhood but recent events are
                                    outside of their medical ability. This means that they can remember
                                    dear old Uncle Harry but they may not recall meeting you yesterday.
                                    Treatment for these people is supportive. In other words, there's no
                                    cure but they need help with ADLs(activities of daily living).
                                    Dr. Girard
                                  • DDD
                                    Dear Vladimir,   Just looking at  the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei (Gnevyshev), starosta of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 7, 2006
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                                      Dear Vladimir,
                                       
                                      Just looking at  the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei (Gnevyshev), starosta of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop Gregory (Kozyrev) also served.
                                      Any relation?  Not a loaded question, as I do not follow up on these threads. I just happened to notice the name....
                                       
                                       
                                      http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Life/life4755.htm
                                       
                                      --Dimitra Dwelley
                                    • Vladimir Kozyreff
                                      Dear Dimitra, I do not know, wheter we are relatives or not. As you may know, this family gave more than one martyr. http://www.fond.ru/book/book3/3-45.htm In
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 8, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Dimitra,

                                        I do not know, wheter we are relatives or not. As you may know, this family
                                        gave more than one martyr.

                                        http://www.fond.ru/book/book3/3-45.htm

                                        In Christ,

                                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "DDD" <dimitradd@...>
                                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:49 PM
                                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Any relation?


                                        Dear Vladimir,

                                        Just looking at the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei (Gnevyshev), starosta
                                        of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop Gregory (Kozyrev)
                                        also served.
                                        Any relation? Not a loaded question, as I do not follow up on these threads.
                                        I just happened to notice the name....


                                        http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Life/life4755.htm

                                        --Dimitra Dwelley




                                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod


                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • cantor71
                                        Thank you, Vladimir, for this very informative link. I note their work is blessed by Alexy II. ... this family ... (Gnevyshev), starosta ... (Kozyrev) ...
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 9, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thank you, Vladimir, for this very informative link. I note their
                                          work is blessed by Alexy II.

                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Kozyreff"
                                          <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Dimitra,
                                          >
                                          > I do not know, wheter we are relatives or not. As you may know,
                                          this family
                                          > gave more than one martyr.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.fond.ru/book/book3/3-45.htm
                                          >
                                          > In Christ,
                                          >
                                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "DDD" <dimitradd@...>
                                          > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:49 PM
                                          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Any relation?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dear Vladimir,
                                          >
                                          > Just looking at the life of the Holy New Martyr Andrei
                                          (Gnevyshev), starosta
                                          > of St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bezhetzka (?)... where Bishop Gregory
                                          (Kozyrev)
                                          > also served.
                                          > Any relation? Not a loaded question, as I do not follow up on
                                          these threads.
                                          > I just happened to notice the name....
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Life/life4755.htm
                                          >
                                          > --Dimitra Dwelley
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
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