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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for Regicide

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  • Alexandre de Bonnefoi
    Dear Lawrence, The most difficult is to explain to people who don t want to understand. Trying to convince or convert doesn t work when people don t want.
    Message 1 of 37 , Feb 6, 2006
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      Dear Lawrence,

      The most difficult is to explain to people who don't want to understand. Trying to convince or convert doesn't work when people don't want.

      Information and honnest explanations are necessary to throw light on falses opinions. But the worst is (and here I agree with Father Alexander) to talk with people and their idée fixe. Father Alexander and others have their idée fixe : to join MP by any way.

      Vladimir Kozyreff tries to confess the Faith. He has informations, intellectual powers to present It documented and unaffectedly. That is his idée fixe.

      His contradictors have another idée fixe : to defend a new spiritual way. This one is not the same than this of ROCOR before 1999-2000.

      So, what was happened? Vladimir was the same before and after 1999-2000 but a part of ROCOR have officialy changed since 2000.

      Why? To force ROCOR to unify with MP? Was it not possible to quit ROCOR to join MP? Indeed it was but why doing it with a different spiritual way : why to renounce all thought of the position of ROCOR from Vl Anthony to Vl Vitaly?

      Because MP doesn't want to join ROCOR; so, ROCOR had to make effort to join MP.

      That is your way but not the ROCOR 's way because ROCOR has the same idée fixe from Vl Anthony to Vl Vitaly : to confess the right Faith by the right way. When MP will confess It, union will be done.

      A de Bonnefoi


      larry most <larrymost2002@...> a écrit :
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      Dear Vladimir,
      We could go on and on until we both go into the ground
      about this and go nowhere. I guess I just have to
      respectfully agree to disagree. You have your opinion
      and I have mine. I shudder, when I think of your
      opinion of the OCA, or the Serbian Church or the
      Antiochian Church or the Greek Church. Since I am not
      yet perfect, I have a hard time expecting perfection
      from anyone else.
      Yes, I'm on of those darned American converts who just
      doesn't understand. My job as an Orthodox Christian is
      to pray for the good of the Church,not condemn other
      Orthodox Churches.
      If you feel fulfilled condemning others, all I can say
      is "Go for it".
      Love in Christ,
      Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

      --- Vladimir Kozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
      wrote:

      > Dear Lawrence,
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "What I was referring to was the demand
      > of an apology from the
      > Patriarch (which I thought he already did)".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: I refuted this a couple of times already. You
      > cannot apologise for
      > taking power by imposture and stay in office. You
      > cannot apologise for
      > sergianism and announce that you will do the same
      > "necessary sin" again,
      > because it is the only way to "save the Church". You
      > cannot apologise for
      > sergianism and call the 1927 declaration a "bold
      > step". You cannot apologise
      > for sergianism and forbid people even to mention
      > that term.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "No matter what the MP Church does, it
      > seems to be not enough
      > for you or him. I'm wondering if either you or he
      > lived in Russia during the
      > "glorious days of communism." If you did, then you
      > know something I don't
      > know. If you did not, then how is it you guys DARE
      > to insist that the MP
      > Church does anything. I remember Kreuchev's remarks
      > about the Church and
      > they weren't very flattering".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: If you know anything about the Soviet regime,
      > you know that a "Church"
      > hierarchy was allowed to stay only if it was made
      > of people totally devoted
      > to the annihilation of the faith. You are just
      > confused in understanding the
      > identity of those who pretend to be the Church. They
      > are just a professional
      > pseudo Church created by Stalin, which succeed in
      > deceiving you. Remember,
      > the concept of pseudo Church exists in the orthodox
      > tradition. If you cannot
      > recognise it now, will you ever be able to recognise
      > a false Church?
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "As far as Stalin goes, he was a literal
      > nutcase, but so were
      > most of the Communist rulers. The Church was lucky
      > to stay even remotely
      > alive during those years".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: The Church is more alive than ever when martyrs
      > witness God. The Church
      > is not the Church if it is appointed by the enemies
      > of God who have all
      > means art their disposal to check the faithfulness
      > to communism of their KGB
      > spiritual department.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "Have you read anything by Alexandr
      > Solsenyetsin?"
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: How can you ask such a question to a Russian
      > White emigrate? The problem
      > with you is that you seem to have read him, but not
      > understood him.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: " If not, you should, then you would see
      > what kind of conditions
      > the Church suffered under. By the way, ROCOR clergy
      > did not live there, they
      > left".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: The prescription of orthodoxy regarding
      > persecution are as follows: If
      > they persecute you in one town, leave and go to
      > another town. Do not look
      > for martyrdom. If God wants you to be a martyr, He
      > will let you know and
      > give you the strength to be one. Millions of
      > Russians fell into each of the
      > two categories. Millions witnessed Christ, but those
      > are not the "MP".
      >
      >
      >
      > The Ridigers stayed and were caught in that
      > ROA/Vlasov affair. They had to
      > promise total submission to the Communist cause to
      > survive, and they did. We
      > may pity them, but they nevertheless faithfully
      > served the regime from then
      > on. This is not the Church.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "You guys are way off base, when it comes
      > to being so critical of
      > the MP Church".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: We are not critical of the "MP Church". How can
      > you be critical of the
      > devil, especially when he is so successful in
      > deceiving your naive brothers
      > in the faith? We are critical of the blindness that
      > cause people to call
      > "Church" the KGB spiritual department. The
      > Westerners do it by naivety, but
      > the Russians that practice the same blindness, like
      > Father Alexander Lebedev
      > can hardly be considered as naïve.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "As for storming out of the WCC (and I'm
      > NOT a big fan of them),
      > what does that do, nothing, but if you stay,
      > maybe,just maybe we can talk a
      > little sense into them".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK Again and again, we have refuted this many times.
      > Membership to the WCC
      > implies adhesion to its main principles, which are
      > heretical. Membership
      > already shows that you have abandoned orthodoxy.
      > Besides and again, the
      > Fathers teach us to flee apostasy, not to be in
      > close contact with it, even
      > under the pretext of converting them, because
      > apostasy is stronger than our
      > weak faith. Please drink from orthodox sources, not
      > from worldly "dialogue"
      > sources.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "Why you folks are so against
      > re-approachment between MP and
      > ROCOR is a big mystery to me".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: Westerners are usually fooled easier by
      > communists than Russians.
      >
      >
      >
      > You write: "I'm tired of hearing how "bad the MP is,
      > when after all those
      > years of oppression, they are just booming".
      >
      >
      >
      > VK: The rise of false churches has been predicted.
      > The MP has been part of
      > the oppressors, not of the oppressed.
      >
      >
      >
      > In Christ,
      >
      >
      >
      > Vladimir Kozyreff
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:57 AM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
      > [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
      > Regicide
      >
      === message truncated ===


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    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Valdimir, I said no such thing. What I said is that we should RECONCILE with the MP. I don t think that they
      Message 37 of 37 , Feb 11, 2006
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        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        Dear Valdimir,
        I said no such thing. What I said is that we should
        RECONCILE with the MP. I don't think that they are
        going to storm over here and take over our churches
        and throw out our clergy, and make us do all sorts of
        un-Orthodox. Come on, you will NEVER accept
        recociliation with the MP because of what happened in
        the past. I will let the HOLY SPIRIT do HIS work and
        if it happens GREAT, if not, maybe later.
        You have never told us what the MP should do to become
        "good enough" for us to talk to.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

        --- Vladimir Kozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
        wrote:

        > Dear Lawrence,
        >
        > You said that we should join te MP because we must
        > pardon. Now you say that
        > we should not join the "RC"s because they teach
        > heresy, even if we pardon
        > them.
        >
        > Do you understand that you are illogical? The fact
        > that we must pardon is
        > not a reason to join a wrong "Church" or the MP.
        >
        > The reason to join the MP would be that it is
        > orthodox, not that we pardon.
        >
        > The MP teaches that appointees of the KGB/
        > CheKa/NKVD (the devil) may be
        > considered as the appointees of God. Sergianism is
        > dogmatising Church
        > capture by the devil. It is teaching that God
        > accepts te devil's appointees
        > to be the successors of the apostles.
        >
        > This is not orthodox and is in contradiction with
        > all canons, whether we
        > "forgive" or not..
        >
        > In Christ,
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 12:14 AM
        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
        > [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
        > Regicide
        >
        >
        > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > > Dear Vladimir,
        > > We would not join the Pope of Rome or Arius
        > because
        > > they have varient teachings. As far as I know the
        > MP
        > > teachings are the same as the rest of Orthodoxy.
        > > Love in Christ,
        > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        > >
        > > --- Vladimir Kozyreff
        > <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > >> Dera Lawrence,
        > >>
        > >> We must forgive Arius. We must forgive the Pope
        > of
        > >> Rome. This does not mean
        > >> that we have to join them. We must forgive the
        > >> assassin, but not join him in
        > >> his crime. According to your reasoning, we might
        > >> accept all of the mistakes
        > >> and heresies against the Church because we pardon
        > >> their authors.
        > >>
        > >> Distinction between the sin (which must be hated)
        > >> and the sinner (who must
        > >> be loved and helped to renounce his sin) is
        > >> elemntary catechisis.
        > >>
        > >> Orthodoxy has always displayed a perfect
        > spiritual
        > >> rigor versus the "RCs"
        > >> Frank barbarians confusion. Unfortunately, many
        > >> orthodox converts lack that
        > >> culture of spiritual discernement and are confuse
        > >> about faithfulness to the
        > >> truth (the essenc eof orthodxy) and
        > sentimentalism
        > >> (let us be consructive
        > >> and forget about the truth out of love).
        > >>
        > >> In Christ,
        > >>
        > >> Vladimir Kozyreff
        > >>
        > >> ----- Original Message -----
        > >> From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
        > >> To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > >> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:42 AM
        > >> Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
        > >> [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
        > >> Regicide
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > >> > Dear Dr. Bob,
        > >> > Thank you for saying what I would have liked to
        > >> > say,but didn't know how. My whole point is that
        > we
        > >> > need to forgive and move on. Thanks again for a
        > >> great
        > >> > reply.
        > >> > Love in Christ,
        > >> > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        > >> >
        > >> > --- "Dr. Bob Holderer" <rholderer@...>
        > >> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> >> Vladimir,
        > >> >>
        > >> >> After reading your endless tirades for a year
        > >> now, I
        > >> >> think that a few
        > >> >> comments are in order.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 1. You are not the only one who lost
        > relatives
        > >> >> under the Communists.
        > >> >> Many of us can share stories as horrible as
        > the
        > >> ones
        > >> >> you relate.
        > >> >> However, the difference between you and many
        > of
        > >> us
        > >> >> is that we have
        > >> >> learned to go on with our lives and not to
        > dwell
        > >> on
        > >> >> the past. The
        > >> >> Church was not responsible for these deaths;
        > the
        > >> >> Communists were.
        > >> >> Those people who killed my relatives are most
        > >> likely
        > >> >> dead now, and I
        > >> >> leave the judgment of those people to God. He
        > >> knows
        > >> >> their motives
        > >> >> much much better than I could have ever could
        > >> ever
        > >> >> guess, and I am
        > >> >> going to put faith in God's judgment. Christ
        > >> told
        > >> >> us not to render
        > >> >> evil for evil, and He told us not to go out
        > for
        > >> >> revenge.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 2. Those in Church leadership today were not
        > >> around
        > >> >> during those most
        > >> >> violent of days. They are not to be held
        > >> >> accountable for things they
        > >> >> had no part of. If we are to follow your
        > logic,
        > >> we
        > >> >> all should be
        > >> >> repenting of things that our distant relatives
        > >> have
        > >> >> done. I can't
        > >> >> undo the past, but I can refuse to continue
        > the
        > >> >> carnage. Character
        > >> >> assassination is not the solution to old
        > evils.
        > >> It
        > >> >> does not solve
        > >> >> anything except to keep the wounds open.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 3. It has been painfully obvious that you
        > hate
        > >> the
        > >> >> Church of Russia
        > >> >> and everything that she stands for.
        > Otherwise,
        > >> you
        > >> >> would not
        > >> >> continuously rehearse all of the sins of the
        > >> past.
        > >> >> Lay this at the
        > >> >> feet of Jesus, and move on!
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 4. The only solutions that you can come up to
        > >> are
        > >> >> intrinsically
        > >> >> destructive in nature. You don't like
        > something?
        > >> >> Get rid of it.
        > >> >> Life ain't that easy. Imagine that all of the
        > >> >> bishops of the Russian
        > >> >> Church did step down. Why stop with the
        > bishops?
        > >> >> Get rid of the
        > >> >> priests as well. Why stop there? Let's get
        > rid
        >
        === message truncated ===


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