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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for Regicide

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  • larry most
    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Vladimir, What I was referring to was the demand of an apology from the Patriarch (which I thought he already
    Message 1 of 37 , Feb 4, 2006
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      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      Dear Vladimir,
      What I was referring to was the demand of an apology
      from the Patriarch (which I thought he already did).
      No matter what the MP Church does, it seems to be not
      enough for you or him. I'm wondering if either you or
      he lived in Russia during the "glorious days of
      communism." If you did, then you know something I
      don't know. If you did not, then how is it you guys
      DARE to insist that the MP Church does anything. I
      remember Kreuchev's remarks about the Church and they
      weren't very flattering.
      As far as Stalin goes,he was a literal nutcase, but so
      were most of the Communist rulers. The Church was
      lucky to stay,even remotly alive during those years.
      Have you read anything by Alexandr Solsenyetsin? If
      not,you should, then you would see what kind of
      conditions the Church suffered under. By the way,ROCOR
      clergy did not live there,they left. You guys are way
      off base, when it comes to being so critical of the MP
      Church.
      As for storming out of the WCC (and I'm NOT a big fan
      of them), what does that do, nothing, but if you stay,
      maybe,just maybe we can talk a little sense into them.
      Why you folks are so against re-approachment between
      MP and ROCOR is a big mystery to me.
      Sorry for the long post,but I'm tired of hearing how
      "bad the MP is, when after all those years of
      oppression,they are just booming. Something I've
      prayed for,for a long time.
      Love in Christ,
      Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

      --- Vladimir Kozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
      wrote:

      > Dear Lawrence,
      >
      > Woiuld you please explain what you mean? I confess I
      > do not understand at
      > all what you are saying. Maybe my insufficient
      > knowledgeof English?
      >
      > It seems to me that M Nikitin's expectations are
      > correct if we are to
      > commemorate that man, and I cannot see that it
      > occured yet.
      >
      > It seems to me that you want to believe that
      > apostasy does not exist,
      > however big it may be, and however loud the warnings
      > of the Fathers may have
      > been. Maybe you believe that Stalin is a saint, that
      > God has no enemies,
      > that sergianism is an illusion created by evil past
      > ROCOR hierarchs?
      >
      > Yours,
      >
      > VK
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 5:24 PM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
      > [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
      > Regicide
      >
      >
      > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      > > Dear Michael,
      > > Even if it slapped you across the face, you would
      > > still be waiting for it and if not for that
      > something
      > > else. I guess you have little use for the Moscow
      > > Patriarchate.
      > > Love in Christ,
      > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
      > >
      > > --- michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >> We are now earnestly waiting to read from Patr.
      > >> Alexey II the repentance for Sergianism,
      > repentance
      > >> for being in Ecumenism and that the MP is leaving
      > >> this WCC organization.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      >
      http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6056
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Michael N
      > >>
      > >> "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
      > >> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Earlier, I posted a quotation from an official
      > >> Proclamation on the
      > >> occasion of the 75th Anniversary of the murder of
      > >> the Tsar-Martyr
      > >> Nicholas and the Royal Family, which included the
      > >> following words of
      > >> repentance:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> >"The sin of the murder of the Tsar, which took
      > >> place in the face of
      > >> >the indifference of the citizens of Russia, has
      > not
      > >> been repented of
      > >> >by our people. Being a crime against both the
      > law
      > >> of God and man,
      > >> >this sin lies as a most heavy burden on the soul
      > of
      > >> the people, on
      > >> >its moral self-understanding."
      > >> >
      > >> >"And so today, we, on behalf of the whole
      > Church,
      > >> on behalf of all of
      > >> >its children--both those who have reposed and
      > those
      > >> who are now
      > >> >living-- we offer before God and the people
      > >> repentance for this sin.
      > >> >Forgive us, O Lord!"
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> I failed to mention that this Proclamation was
      > >> issued and signed by
      > >> Patriarch Alexei II of Moscow and All Russia and
      > by
      > >> the Holy Synod of
      > >> the Russian Orthodox Church.
      > >>
      > >> And there are still those who stubbornly repeat
      > that
      > >> the Patriarch
      > >> and the hierarchy of Moscow Patriarchate have
      > never
      > >> repented before
      > >> God and the Russian people!
      > >>
      > >> The Epistle, dated July 16, 1993, also contains
      > the
      > >> following words:
      > >>
      > >> "Now, by renouncing the sins of the past, we must
      > >> understand that
      > >> good goals must be achieved through worthy
      > means."
      > >>
      > >> Also note the words of this Epistle:
      > >>
      > >> "Repentance of the sin that was done by our
      > >> ancestors must become for
      > >> us yet one more sign of unity. Let the current
      > >> sorrowful date unite
      > >> us in prayer with the Russian Orthodox Church
      > >> Outside of Russia, the
      > >> rebirth of spiritual communion with which, in
      > >> faithfulness to the
      > >> spirit of Christ, we sincerely strive for."
      > >>
      > >> And this was in 1993!
      > >>
      > >> How many members of this list have heard of this
      > >> Epistle prior to today?
      > >>
      > >> Why was it not published and distributed more
      > widely
      > >> abroad?
      > >>
      > >> Why is it not quoted when the question of
      > repentance
      > >> of the Patriarch
      > >> or the hierarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate
      > before
      > >> God and the Russian people is raised?
      > >>
      > >> With love in Christ,
      > >>
      > >> Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> ---------------------------------
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      > >> With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with
      > Yahoo!
      > >> Mail.
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > >> removed]
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
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      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
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      > >
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      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Valdimir, I said no such thing. What I said is that we should RECONCILE with the MP. I don t think that they
      Message 37 of 37 , Feb 11, 2006
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        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        Dear Valdimir,
        I said no such thing. What I said is that we should
        RECONCILE with the MP. I don't think that they are
        going to storm over here and take over our churches
        and throw out our clergy, and make us do all sorts of
        un-Orthodox. Come on, you will NEVER accept
        recociliation with the MP because of what happened in
        the past. I will let the HOLY SPIRIT do HIS work and
        if it happens GREAT, if not, maybe later.
        You have never told us what the MP should do to become
        "good enough" for us to talk to.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

        --- Vladimir Kozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
        wrote:

        > Dear Lawrence,
        >
        > You said that we should join te MP because we must
        > pardon. Now you say that
        > we should not join the "RC"s because they teach
        > heresy, even if we pardon
        > them.
        >
        > Do you understand that you are illogical? The fact
        > that we must pardon is
        > not a reason to join a wrong "Church" or the MP.
        >
        > The reason to join the MP would be that it is
        > orthodox, not that we pardon.
        >
        > The MP teaches that appointees of the KGB/
        > CheKa/NKVD (the devil) may be
        > considered as the appointees of God. Sergianism is
        > dogmatising Church
        > capture by the devil. It is teaching that God
        > accepts te devil's appointees
        > to be the successors of the apostles.
        >
        > This is not orthodox and is in contradiction with
        > all canons, whether we
        > "forgive" or not..
        >
        > In Christ,
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 12:14 AM
        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
        > [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
        > Regicide
        >
        >
        > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > > Dear Vladimir,
        > > We would not join the Pope of Rome or Arius
        > because
        > > they have varient teachings. As far as I know the
        > MP
        > > teachings are the same as the rest of Orthodoxy.
        > > Love in Christ,
        > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        > >
        > > --- Vladimir Kozyreff
        > <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > >> Dera Lawrence,
        > >>
        > >> We must forgive Arius. We must forgive the Pope
        > of
        > >> Rome. This does not mean
        > >> that we have to join them. We must forgive the
        > >> assassin, but not join him in
        > >> his crime. According to your reasoning, we might
        > >> accept all of the mistakes
        > >> and heresies against the Church because we pardon
        > >> their authors.
        > >>
        > >> Distinction between the sin (which must be hated)
        > >> and the sinner (who must
        > >> be loved and helped to renounce his sin) is
        > >> elemntary catechisis.
        > >>
        > >> Orthodoxy has always displayed a perfect
        > spiritual
        > >> rigor versus the "RCs"
        > >> Frank barbarians confusion. Unfortunately, many
        > >> orthodox converts lack that
        > >> culture of spiritual discernement and are confuse
        > >> about faithfulness to the
        > >> truth (the essenc eof orthodxy) and
        > sentimentalism
        > >> (let us be consructive
        > >> and forget about the truth out of love).
        > >>
        > >> In Christ,
        > >>
        > >> Vladimir Kozyreff
        > >>
        > >> ----- Original Message -----
        > >> From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
        > >> To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > >> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:42 AM
        > >> Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
        > >> [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
        > >> Regicide
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > >> > Dear Dr. Bob,
        > >> > Thank you for saying what I would have liked to
        > >> > say,but didn't know how. My whole point is that
        > we
        > >> > need to forgive and move on. Thanks again for a
        > >> great
        > >> > reply.
        > >> > Love in Christ,
        > >> > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        > >> >
        > >> > --- "Dr. Bob Holderer" <rholderer@...>
        > >> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> >> Vladimir,
        > >> >>
        > >> >> After reading your endless tirades for a year
        > >> now, I
        > >> >> think that a few
        > >> >> comments are in order.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 1. You are not the only one who lost
        > relatives
        > >> >> under the Communists.
        > >> >> Many of us can share stories as horrible as
        > the
        > >> ones
        > >> >> you relate.
        > >> >> However, the difference between you and many
        > of
        > >> us
        > >> >> is that we have
        > >> >> learned to go on with our lives and not to
        > dwell
        > >> on
        > >> >> the past. The
        > >> >> Church was not responsible for these deaths;
        > the
        > >> >> Communists were.
        > >> >> Those people who killed my relatives are most
        > >> likely
        > >> >> dead now, and I
        > >> >> leave the judgment of those people to God. He
        > >> knows
        > >> >> their motives
        > >> >> much much better than I could have ever could
        > >> ever
        > >> >> guess, and I am
        > >> >> going to put faith in God's judgment. Christ
        > >> told
        > >> >> us not to render
        > >> >> evil for evil, and He told us not to go out
        > for
        > >> >> revenge.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 2. Those in Church leadership today were not
        > >> around
        > >> >> during those most
        > >> >> violent of days. They are not to be held
        > >> >> accountable for things they
        > >> >> had no part of. If we are to follow your
        > logic,
        > >> we
        > >> >> all should be
        > >> >> repenting of things that our distant relatives
        > >> have
        > >> >> done. I can't
        > >> >> undo the past, but I can refuse to continue
        > the
        > >> >> carnage. Character
        > >> >> assassination is not the solution to old
        > evils.
        > >> It
        > >> >> does not solve
        > >> >> anything except to keep the wounds open.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 3. It has been painfully obvious that you
        > hate
        > >> the
        > >> >> Church of Russia
        > >> >> and everything that she stands for.
        > Otherwise,
        > >> you
        > >> >> would not
        > >> >> continuously rehearse all of the sins of the
        > >> past.
        > >> >> Lay this at the
        > >> >> feet of Jesus, and move on!
        > >> >>
        > >> >> 4. The only solutions that you can come up to
        > >> are
        > >> >> intrinsically
        > >> >> destructive in nature. You don't like
        > something?
        > >> >> Get rid of it.
        > >> >> Life ain't that easy. Imagine that all of the
        > >> >> bishops of the Russian
        > >> >> Church did step down. Why stop with the
        > bishops?
        > >> >> Get rid of the
        > >> >> priests as well. Why stop there? Let's get
        > rid
        >
        === message truncated ===


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