Re: [orthodox-synod] RE: Repentance for Regicide
- Dear Dimitra,
In the same way as they keep asking my definition of ecumenism when I
denounce it, you should define martyrs when you ask questions about them.
It is not sufficient for a person to be killed by atheists to be a martyr.
The person should be a member of the true Church, not a sergianist, for
You know that Father Alexander Lebedeff claims that the 1927 declaration
prompted the Bolshevik to liberate clergy, which saved the Church
(sergianist view n° 1), while Father John Shaw claims that the declaration
did not stop the persecutions, on the contrary, so that the sergianists were
killed and became martyrs as well (sergianist view n° 2).
The latter victims of the Bolsheviks are not considered as martyrs by the
traditional ROCOR. For New ROCOR, of course, this distinction has become
irrelevant and we may safely predict that New ROCOR will now
enthusiastically glorify the killed sergianists.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DDD" <dimitradd@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] RE: Repentance for Regicide
If you are referring to St. Joseph of Petrograd, that is an interesting
question--especially since the Church in Russia *did* glorify St. Victor,
who was much more vehement and rabid against Metr. Sergius, as well as many
other New Martyrs who rejected Metr. Sergius' 1927 Declaration. It seems
there must have been a more specific reason than that he was merely a
"catacomb" leader, for other catacomb saints were glorified. You'd think
that they would have at least been consistent and not glorified *any* of the
martyrs who did not recognize Metr. Sergius' Declaration.... Have we
addressed this? Does anyone know their stated reason?
Last time I was at Jordanville, somebody told me (Fr. Paul, I think) that
Metr. Joseph's glorification was being considered by the MP, or worked on,
or something to that effect.... So he may be glorified by the MP yet. Will
people then rejoice and make a big to-do about it?
But I have another question: Every day I go to the wonderful calendar site
at days.ru -- or now, linked to Pravoslavie.ru. In it are lives of Saints
of the day, and, of course, many New Martyrs. Once in a while I compare a
day's list from there with that of the St. Herman's calendar or Jordanville,
and I see we do not commemorate many, many of the New Martyrs that they
do--even if those martyrs rejected Metr. Sergius.
So I will also ask:
Why are not ALL of the martyrs under the communist yoke commemorated by the
Church Abroad? (Seriously-asked question)
Bushunow, Peter wrote:
Why are not ALL of the martyrs under the communist yoke commemorated
by the Church in Russia?
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- GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
I said no such thing. What I said is that we should
RECONCILE with the MP. I don't think that they are
going to storm over here and take over our churches
and throw out our clergy, and make us do all sorts of
un-Orthodox. Come on, you will NEVER accept
recociliation with the MP because of what happened in
the past. I will let the HOLY SPIRIT do HIS work and
if it happens GREAT, if not, maybe later.
You have never told us what the MP should do to become
"good enough" for us to talk to.
Love in Christ,
Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
--- Vladimir Kozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
> Dear Lawrence,=== message truncated ===
> You said that we should join te MP because we must
> pardon. Now you say that
> we should not join the "RC"s because they teach
> heresy, even if we pardon
> Do you understand that you are illogical? The fact
> that we must pardon is
> not a reason to join a wrong "Church" or the MP.
> The reason to join the MP would be that it is
> orthodox, not that we pardon.
> The MP teaches that appointees of the KGB/
> CheKa/NKVD (the devil) may be
> considered as the appointees of God. Sergianism is
> dogmatising Church
> capture by the devil. It is teaching that God
> accepts te devil's appointees
> to be the successors of the apostles.
> This is not orthodox and is in contradiction with
> all canons, whether we
> "forgive" or not..
> In Christ,
> Vladimir Kozyreff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
> To: <email@example.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 12:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
> [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
> > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
> > Dear Vladimir,
> > We would not join the Pope of Rome or Arius
> > they have varient teachings. As far as I know the
> > teachings are the same as the rest of Orthodoxy.
> > Love in Christ,
> > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
> > --- Vladimir Kozyreff
> > wrote:
> >> Dera Lawrence,
> >> We must forgive Arius. We must forgive the Pope
> >> Rome. This does not mean
> >> that we have to join them. We must forgive the
> >> assassin, but not join him in
> >> his crime. According to your reasoning, we might
> >> accept all of the mistakes
> >> and heresies against the Church because we pardon
> >> their authors.
> >> Distinction between the sin (which must be hated)
> >> and the sinner (who must
> >> be loved and helped to renounce his sin) is
> >> elemntary catechisis.
> >> Orthodoxy has always displayed a perfect
> >> rigor versus the "RCs"
> >> Frank barbarians confusion. Unfortunately, many
> >> orthodox converts lack that
> >> culture of spiritual discernement and are confuse
> >> about faithfulness to the
> >> truth (the essenc eof orthodxy) and
> >> (let us be consructive
> >> and forget about the truth out of love).
> >> In Christ,
> >> Vladimir Kozyreff
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
> >> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:42 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re:
> >> [rocorclergy-churchaffairs] Repentance for
> >> Regicide
> >> > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
> >> > Dear Dr. Bob,
> >> > Thank you for saying what I would have liked to
> >> > say,but didn't know how. My whole point is that
> >> > need to forgive and move on. Thanks again for a
> >> great
> >> > reply.
> >> > Love in Christ,
> >> > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
> >> >
> >> > --- "Dr. Bob Holderer" <rholderer@...>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Vladimir,
> >> >>
> >> >> After reading your endless tirades for a year
> >> now, I
> >> >> think that a few
> >> >> comments are in order.
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. You are not the only one who lost
> >> >> under the Communists.
> >> >> Many of us can share stories as horrible as
> >> ones
> >> >> you relate.
> >> >> However, the difference between you and many
> >> us
> >> >> is that we have
> >> >> learned to go on with our lives and not to
> >> on
> >> >> the past. The
> >> >> Church was not responsible for these deaths;
> >> >> Communists were.
> >> >> Those people who killed my relatives are most
> >> likely
> >> >> dead now, and I
> >> >> leave the judgment of those people to God. He
> >> knows
> >> >> their motives
> >> >> much much better than I could have ever could
> >> ever
> >> >> guess, and I am
> >> >> going to put faith in God's judgment. Christ
> >> told
> >> >> us not to render
> >> >> evil for evil, and He told us not to go out
> >> >> revenge.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2. Those in Church leadership today were not
> >> around
> >> >> during those most
> >> >> violent of days. They are not to be held
> >> >> accountable for things they
> >> >> had no part of. If we are to follow your
> >> we
> >> >> all should be
> >> >> repenting of things that our distant relatives
> >> have
> >> >> done. I can't
> >> >> undo the past, but I can refuse to continue
> >> >> carnage. Character
> >> >> assassination is not the solution to old
> >> It
> >> >> does not solve
> >> >> anything except to keep the wounds open.
> >> >>
> >> >> 3. It has been painfully obvious that you
> >> the
> >> >> Church of Russia
> >> >> and everything that she stands for.
> >> you
> >> >> would not
> >> >> continuously rehearse all of the sins of the
> >> past.
> >> >> Lay this at the
> >> >> feet of Jesus, and move on!
> >> >>
> >> >> 4. The only solutions that you can come up to
> >> are
> >> >> intrinsically
> >> >> destructive in nature. You don't like
> >> >> Get rid of it.
> >> >> Life ain't that easy. Imagine that all of the
> >> >> bishops of the Russian
> >> >> Church did step down. Why stop with the
> >> >> Get rid of the
> >> >> priests as well. Why stop there? Let's get
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