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Re: [orthodox-synod] French Clergy L'ECOF

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... why L ECOF left ROCOR, and what were our (ROCOR s) problems with them? Who they are under now (my French is too poor to read their page and the Google
    Message 1 of 149 , Jan 1, 2006
      Dimitra wrote:

      > Could someone (Fr. John Shaw, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff...) please tell me something about
      why L'ECOF left ROCOR, and what were our (ROCOR's) problems with them? Who they are
      under now (my French is too poor to read their page and the Google translator won't do the
      whole page).? I know St. John of San Francisco supported them and I think along with
      someone else ordained Bishop Jean Kovalevsky, and even knew there would be trouble with
      them but supported them anyway?

      JRS: The French diocese followed a form of the Western Rite (the "reconstructed Gallican rite",
      which was partly based on surviving Gallican fragments, partly on the Roman Rite, and partly
      on the Russian liturgical tradition).

      This was controversial for some, and there were also accusations against Bishop Jean
      (Evgraph Kovalevsky) of religious eccentricities, in part that he may have believed animals
      had souls (but that was never actually proven).

      His main opponents were Archbishop Vitaly of Montreal, and Archbishop Anthony of Geneva,
      according to Archbishop Nikon of blessed memory.

      After the repose of St. John of San Francisco, Bishop Jean felt that he was without support
      among the ROCOR bishops.

      Exactly what came as the "last straw", I do not know. But he sent a telegram to the Synod,
      saying he was breaking off all contacts with them, and the telegram stated that a "letter
      would follow" with details.

      The letter never followed, and the Synod deposed Bishop Jean. Soon thereafter, due to a
      prostate operation, Bishop Jean died.

      Several of his parishes asked to be left in ROCOR. Instead of being kept as a diocese, they
      were assigned to the diocese of Archbishop Anthony of Geneva, who demanded that they
      give up the Gallican (Western) Rite.

      These parishes stayed with ROCOR for almost two decades, but they seem to have been (or
      felt) isolated from the rest of the Western European diocese, and eventually they left ROCOR.

      The French Diocese later was accepted by the Romanian Orthodox Church, but after some
      years, that relationship also failed (I do not know the details).

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Glenn Fleurinck
      Mr. Kozyreff, You are painting a very romanticised but innaccurate and unrealistic picture of both Russian culture and the Russian immigrant community outside
      Message 149 of 149 , Jan 8, 2006
        Mr. Kozyreff,

        You are painting a very romanticised but innaccurate and unrealistic picture of both Russian culture and the Russian immigrant community outside Russia.

        First, 7 decades of communist oppresion had their impact. And many contemporary russians have to go in search for their roots as they have very little feeling left with their orthodox heritage. Their was also a time mind you when " Christian" and " European" were synonymous.

        And what i know the immigrant community in this country is that they behave like any other immigrant group. A little island withing society closed in themselves. ( But yes i have some wonderfull Russian friends here just the same)
        But i still have to experience this extraordinary open welcoming bunch of people as you describe them. And I don't blame them. They are only humans trying to live the best they can in a foreign country. I have lived outside Belgium for 10 years myself I know what it's like.

        You write: " The fashion in Western "RC" churches for icons is that they look
        picturesque. They do so because they are foreign and look "primitive" or
        naive to the West."

        Allow me to disagree. For many they are part of a spiritual journey and not just some oriental fashion. I was first introduced to icons by Carmelite Friars and they definately were more then " picturesque" to them.
        The strange and delightful attraction of icons is largely responsible for my own journey towards orthodoxy.

        But then again as a westerner according to you will never really " gett it" anyway. No sir no way i would ever be fully orthodox. That is like saying : " we'll tollerate you If you really must "convert"but you'll never fully be one of us. ( and you still dare to describe yourself as open ,hospitable and welcomming?) Well my friend I find that offensive and an affront to those many converts who have experienced their conversion as a true homecomming and a return indeed to the faith of their forefathers.

        Glenn in Begium,
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Vladimir Kozyreff
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:03 AM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Anyone can Write anything

        Dear Glenn,

        I am not talking about "ethnic groups", I talk about civilisations. Russia
        is not an "ethinc group". There was a time when "Christian" and "Russian"
        were just synonymous.

        The fashion in Western "RC" churches for icons is that they look
        picturesque. They do so because they are foreign and look "primitive" or
        naive to the West. The West produced Boticelli's Madonas or Rubens's
        descents from the cross, which are familiar to all Western people. These
        pieces of art are just that. They are not ethnically, but culturally and
        spiritually totally unorthodox. Orthodoxy is as new to converting Westerners
        as the Aztec culture is to the present Mexicans who start studying it or as
        the ancient Egyptian culture is to the present Egyptians. Some cataclysms
        in history can cut peoples away from their own roots.

        The French consider that their roots are not St Ireneaus of Lyons or St
        Martin of Tours, but the "assemblée constituante". Even their own "gothic
        cathedrals" dedicated to "our Lady" have become foreign to them. When they
        come to the orthodox culture, they cannot find any remnants of it in their
        own traditions. It is the Russian emigration which introduced them to
        orthodoxy. They have no French icons, or no French spiritual music.

        The cu!lt of beauty in the liturgy combined with the spiritual rigor of
        orthodoxy is not traditional at all in Western "RC". The principle that the
        message of Christ is not to be adapted to the times, etc., etc. makes it a
        difficult cultural effort for a Westerner who converts to orthodoxy.

        The Russians are one of the most hospitable and less chauvinistic nations in
        the world, even in exile. They never caused any xenophobic reaction in the
        countries were they arrived in so large numbers. As soon as they settled in
        their exile, they attracted the locals to them. They have never kept the
        local people from converting, they have just helped them to convert. The
        fact that I was Russian has always helped me in my social contacts with the
        local people. They never felt snobbed by the Russian community, but rather
        interested or attracted by it, because they are always so warmly welcomed..

        In Christ,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Glenn Fleurinck" <Glenn.Fleurinck@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 6:16 PM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Anyone can Write anything

        > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote: I think however that orthodoxy is never felt by
        > any Westerner as
        > being his roots. He discovers it by historical considerations, not by
        > any spontaneous reflex of the heart.
        > And being that only God knows the hearts of humankind this is not for you
        > to know. This is tottaly based on preconceived ideas.
        > And it is this attitude that sadly enough keeps many away from orthodoxy.
        > Many parishes are very unwelcoming to those who do not belong to their
        > particular ethnic group.
        > Glenn in Belgium
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