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Re: [rocaclergy] RE: letter to V.Rev. Ilya Gorsky

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... Blessed memory of Metropolitan Anthony (sic!), is their absolute conviction that THEY - AND ONLY THEY - know how our Church should be governed - NOT OUR
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 31, 2005
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      Fr. George Larin wrote:

      > What's so disturbing about the spiritual condition and mind-set of these "adherents of the
      Blessed memory of Metropolitan Anthony" (sic!), is their absolute conviction that THEY - AND
      ONLY THEY - know how our Church should be governed - NOT OUR GOD-GIVEN HIERARCHS,
      whose legal, moral and spiritual awesome obligation to lead their flock they are foolishly
      trying to abrogate and place upon themselves !

      JRS: That is not only disturbing, but an outrage (vopijuschee bezobrazie).

      However, the the "icing on the cake" is the fact that they do not hesitate for one moment to
      spread blatant lies and slander.

      If truth means nothing to them, then their statements, claims and accusations are completely
      worthless.

      If they do not mind falsely besmirching the reputations of our hierarchs and loyal clergy,
      then "thou shalt not bear false witness" and the rest of the 10 Commandments, play no role
      for them; and they are foreign to Christian charity.

      Those qualities are characteristic of Soviet propaganda, not of Metropolitan Anthony and his
      spiritual heirs.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father John, Your write: If they do not mind falsely besmirching the reputations of our hierarchs and loyal clergy, then thou shalt not bear false
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 31, 2005
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        Dear Father John,

        Your write: If they do not mind falsely besmirching the reputations
        of our hierarchs and loyal clergy, then "thou shalt not bear false
        witness" and the rest of the 10 Commandments, play no role for them;
        and they are foreign to Christian charity.

        It is a particularly exquisite treat to hear from a supporter of the
        union with sergianism, that its opponents bear false witness. We have
        been told at lenghth by Father Alexander Lebedeff that only armchair
        dreamers could believe that the Church might have been saved without
        false witnesses.

        In Christ,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
        >
        > Fr. George Larin wrote:
        >
        > > What's so disturbing about the spiritual condition and mind-set
        of these "adherents of the
        > Blessed memory of Metropolitan Anthony" (sic!), is their absolute
        conviction that THEY - AND
        > ONLY THEY - know how our Church should be governed - NOT OUR GOD-
        GIVEN HIERARCHS,
        > whose legal, moral and spiritual awesome obligation to lead their
        flock they are foolishly
        > trying to abrogate and place upon themselves !
        >
        > JRS: That is not only disturbing, but an outrage (vopijuschee
        bezobrazie).
        >
        > However, the the "icing on the cake" is the fact that they do not
        hesitate for one moment to
        > spread blatant lies and slander.
        >
        > If truth means nothing to them, then their statements, claims and
        accusations are completely
        > worthless.
        >
        > If they do not mind falsely besmirching the reputations of our
        hierarchs and loyal clergy,
        > then "thou shalt not bear false witness" and the rest of the 10
        Commandments, play no role
        > for them; and they are foreign to Christian charity.
        >
        > Those qualities are characteristic of Soviet propaganda, not of
        Metropolitan Anthony and his
        > spiritual heirs.
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
        >
      • Richard
        ... reputations ... false ... for them; ... We have ... armchair ... saved without ... Fr. John s observation about bearing false witness stands right on. You
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 31, 2005
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff" <vladimir.
          kozyreff@s...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Father John,
          >
          > Your write: If they do not mind falsely besmirching the
          reputations
          > of our hierarchs and loyal clergy, then "thou shalt not bear
          false
          > witness" and the rest of the 10 Commandments, play no role
          for them;
          > and they are foreign to Christian charity.
          >
          > It is a particularly exquisite treat to hear from a supporter of the
          > union with sergianism, that its opponents bear false witness.
          We have
          > been told at lenghth by Father Alexander Lebedeff that only
          armchair
          > dreamers could believe that the Church might have been
          saved without
          > false witnesses.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Vladimir Kozyreff


          Fr. John's observation about bearing false witness stands right
          on. You not only attributed an asserion to Fr. John that he didn't
          originate, but it's a distortion of what was actually written. Earlier
          in October in post #15262, Fr. John quoted the "Epistle to the
          Flock" by the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR in 1933. The
          epistle states...

          "We are taking fully into account the extraordinary difficulties of
          the position of Metropolitan Sergius, who is now the de facto
          head of the Church of Russia, and are aware of the heavy
          burden of responsibility for the fate of the latter, which lies upon
          him. No one, therefore, has the audacity to accuse him for the
          mere attempt to enter into dialogue with the Soviet regime so as
          to obtain legal standing for the Church of Russia. Not without
          foundation does the deputy locum tenens of the Patriarchal
          Throne say in his aforementioned Declaration that only
          "armchair dreamers can think that such a vast community as our
          Orthodox Church, with all its organization, can exist peacefully in
          a country while walling itself off from the authorities."

          In Christ,
          Richard.
        • Miller
          Who is Richard? I am most weary of the sarcasm and nastiness, no matter who is right or wrong. FrJM ... From: Richard To:
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 1, 2006
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            Who is Richard?

            I am most weary of the sarcasm and nastiness, no matter who is
            right or wrong.

            FrJM

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Richard" <rchrdmason@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 7:24 PM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: [rocaclergy] RE: letter to V.Rev.
            Ilya Gorsky


            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff" <vladimir.
            > kozyreff@s...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Dear Father John,
            >>
            >> Your write: If they do not mind falsely besmirching the
            > reputations
            >> of our hierarchs and loyal clergy, then "thou shalt not bear
            > false
            >> witness" and the rest of the 10 Commandments, play no role
            > for them;
            >> and they are foreign to Christian charity.
            >>
            >> It is a particularly exquisite treat to hear from a supporter
            >> of the
            >> union with sergianism, that its opponents bear false witness.
            > We have
            >> been told at lenghth by Father Alexander Lebedeff that only
            > armchair
            >> dreamers could believe that the Church might have been
            > saved without
            >> false witnesses.
            >>
            >> In Christ,
            >>
            >> Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
            > Fr. John's observation about bearing false witness stands right
            > on. You not only attributed an asserion to Fr. John that he
            > didn't
            > originate, but it's a distortion of what was actually written.
            > Earlier
            > in October in post #15262, Fr. John quoted the "Epistle to the
            > Flock" by the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR in 1933. The
            > epistle states...
            >
            > "We are taking fully into account the extraordinary
            > difficulties of
            > the position of Metropolitan Sergius, who is now the de facto
            > head of the Church of Russia, and are aware of the heavy
            > burden of responsibility for the fate of the latter, which lies
            > upon
            > him. No one, therefore, has the audacity to accuse him for the
            > mere attempt to enter into dialogue with the Soviet regime so
            > as
            > to obtain legal standing for the Church of Russia. Not without
            > foundation does the deputy locum tenens of the Patriarchal
            > Throne say in his aforementioned Declaration that only
            > "armchair dreamers can think that such a vast community as our
            > Orthodox Church, with all its organization, can exist
            > peacefully in
            > a country while walling itself off from the authorities."
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Richard.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... This is about the umpteenth time that Vladimir has misquoted me (talk about bearing false witness!) and attributed to me words that are not mine at all,
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 4, 2006
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              Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:


              >We have
              >been told at lenghth by Father Alexander Lebedeff that only armchair
              >dreamers could believe that the Church might have been saved without
              >false witnesses.


              This is about the umpteenth time that Vladimir has misquoted me (talk
              about bearing false witness!) and attributed to me words that are not
              mine at all, but were quoted from the Epistle of the Sobor of Bishops
              of the Church Abroad in 1933, as has been pointed out by another
              member of this list.

              That Epistle (again -- NOT my words) stated:

              "We are taking fully into account the extraordinary
              > difficulties of
              > the position of Metropolitan Sergius, who is now the de facto
              > head of the Church of Russia, and are aware of the heavy
              > burden of responsibility for the fate of the latter, which lies
              > upon
              > him. No one, therefore, has the audacity to accuse him for the
              > mere attempt to enter into dialogue with the Soviet regime so
              > as
              > to obtain legal standing for the Church of Russia. Not without
              > foundation does the deputy locum tenens of the Patriarchal
              > Throne say in his aforementioned Declaration that only
              > "armchair dreamers can think that such a vast community as our
              > Orthodox Church, with all its organization, can exist
              > peacefully in
              > a country while walling itself off from the authorities."

              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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