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Re: one dimensional church

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father John, bless. You write: It may be true that there were those among the New Martyrs of Russia who died because of the Declaration . Many were send
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
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      Dear Father John, bless.

      You write: "It may be true that there were those among the New
      Martyrs of Russia who died because of the Declaration".

      Many were send to their death by Met Sergius, who punished in that
      way thaose who would not follow him.

      You write: "There were many more who died simply because they would
      not renounce their allegiance to our Lord and His Church -- and so,
      in the eyes of the state, made themselves "enemies of the state."

      Met. Sergius declared that not following him was being an enemy of
      the State, the joys of which were his joys.

      You write: "This was true of thousands who did not follow Met.
      SERGEI; and of thousands who did follow him. It was not the Church
      that martyred them; it was the state -- and the martyrs came from
      both the catacomb churches, and from the "official" church".

      Those who followed Met Sergius in his declaration betrayed the Church
      as he did. Their death at the hands of the Bolshevik do not make them
      martyrs of Christ and his Church. Trotsky too was murdered by Stalin.
      That does not make him a martyr.

      Indeed, the Church did not martyr anybody. The MP did, not being then
      Church, but being one of the "organs", as the KGB was.

      In Christ,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John McCuen"
      <frjohnmcc@c...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
      > <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Nobody has been brought to trial in "free" Russia for persecuting
      > their own people.
      > >
      > > What can the people do when everything is in the hands of those
      > Soviets who were in power before Russia became "free". Those in
      power
      > do not want this, because many of them would be put on trial.
      > >
      > > Bishop Andrei of Novo-Diveevo had a gun to his head, but he did
      > not waver. The more so a bishop should not waver. He has many
      children
      > to be accountable for before God.
      >
      > Who is contesting this? And yet, who among us knows with any
      certainty
      > what we might do if/when the gun is put to our own heads? Or, even
      > more likely, not to our heads, but to the heads of family or to
      others
      > we love? For it is easier for me to imagine myself saying, "Pull
      the
      > trigger" when the gun is to my head; but much, much harder if the
      gun
      > is to the head of my wife, or one of our children, or one of my
      > spiritual children. Therefore, let us not be quick to say what
      others
      > should have done, if we have not faced this test ourselves.
      >
      > >
      > > Metr.Sergei whether he was scared for his life or not, did
      wrong.
      > Many new Russian Martyrs were murdered because of his infamous
      > declaration.
      > >
      >
      > It may be true that there were those among the New Martyrs of Russia
      > who died because of the Declaration. There were many more who died
      > simply because they would not renounce their allegiance to our Lord
      > and His Church -- and so, in the eyes of the state, made themselves
      > "enemies of the state." This was true of thousands who did not
      follow
      > Met. SERGEI; and of thousands who did follow him. It was not the
      > Church that martyred them; it was the state -- and the martyrs came
      > from both the catacomb churches, and from the "official" church.
      >
      > > For the MP to agree that Metr.Serge saved himself and not the
      > Church would be tantamount to admitting that the MP is not a Church,
      > but an organization created by the godless authorities. This they
      will
      > never do.
      > >
      > > Michael N
      > >
      >
      > Nor should they agree to the claim that the MP is not a Church. The
      > fact that the hierarchy was approved by the KGB does not mean that
      the
      > Church became graceless, any more than the Church under Peter I of
      > Russia, who abolished the patriarchate in order to gain mastery of
      the
      > Church; nor of the Church in Constantinople which, to this day, is
      > subject to the control of the secular Muslim state; and where, ofr
      > centuries, the office of the Patriarch was for sale to the highest
      bidder.
      >
      > unworthy Priest John McCuen
      >
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