Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

ROCOR and the rest?

Expand Messages
  • Michael Malloy
    Dear friends, I now consider myself to be a member of ROCOR. When I can make the drive, I attend St. George s parish in Blue Ash (Cincinnati). My wife and I
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 26, 2005
      Dear friends,

      I now consider myself to be a member of ROCOR. When I can make the
      drive, I attend St. George's parish in Blue Ash (Cincinnati).

      My wife and I are leaving the OCA parish we helped found. She has
      questions, I do not.

      Please help me explain to my wife, Susan, the relationship between the
      ROCOR and other Orthodox jurisdictions as it is now and vice versa.
      She is bothered by the OCA proclamation that ROCOR is "Not in
      communion" with any other Orthodox jurisdiction.

      We are both converts (1996). We became Orthodox in a local Serbian
      parish. We left that parish along with the priest and others and
      eventually were admitted to the OCA. I studied two summers at
      Jordanville's summer music school.

      In Christ,

      Reader Michael Malloy
      Columbus OH
    • James Baglien
      Dear in Christ Reader Michael, Welcome to the Church Abroad. May God guide you in your path. With respect to your wife s questions, these are things that
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 28, 2005
        Dear in Christ Reader Michael,

        Welcome to the Church Abroad. May God guide you in your path.

        With respect to your wife's questions, these are things that
        ordinarily might be discussed with your parish priest. However, since
        they are of general interest (I have addressed them before on this
        list, in a slightly different context), I will attempt to answer them.

        That the ROCOR is "not in communion with anybody" is a stock phrase
        with some clergy (esp. OCA) that would like to steer people away from
        the Church Abroad, who see the attractions of its traditionalism as a
        threat.

        The question of whom the ROCOR is in communion with is not that
        complicated.

        "De jure," the ROCOR is in communion with all the Local Churches, and
        with certain Old Calendarist groups. This means that, in theory, any
        Orthodox Christian in good standing from one of these jurisdictions
        should be able to request communion in a ROCOR parish. This is
        typically addressed pastorally, on a case by case basis.

        "De facto," ROCOR clergy currently concelebrate with a smaller number
        of jurisdictions. This policy is generally related to objections to
        modernism and/or ecumenical activities, modified by historical
        circumstances. For example, it is not unusual to see ROCOR and
        Serbian clergy serving together; the same, however, could not be said
        of the ROCOR and the OCA.

        People sometime confuse (innocently or willfully) this policy of
        limited clergy concelebration with the absence of communion.

        Since you are coming from an OCA parish, some additional history might
        be helpful. Historically the OCA has been part of the ROCOR, and left
        her (twice). ROCOR/OCA relations, being both fraternal and
        historically painful, are therefore a special case. In the wake of the
        autocephaly, the ROCOR issued (in 1971) a conciliar ukase forbidding
        its members any communion in prayer with the American Metropolia,
        a.k.a. the OCA. This decree is often not observed with respect to
        laymen, especially in areas where mixed families are common, but
        remains of current force. In this context, one might say that the
        ROCOR and the OCA (specifically) are "not in communion." However,
        even this is a bit ambiguous, as the ukase applies to ROCOR members
        communing in OCA parishes, and not vice versa. Relations between the
        ROCOR and the OCA have eased a bit of late; in my own diocese, the
        Sitka Icon of the Theotokos was brought by OCA clergy to our San
        Francisco cathedral for a moleben and veneration by a vast number of
        the faithful.

        I hope the foregoing is helpful. Please feel free to contact me
        off-list with further questions.

        in IC XC,

        Priest James Baglien
        St. Martin Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
        Corvallis, Oregon



        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Malloy"
        <sputnikpsalomschchika@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > I now consider myself to be a member of ROCOR. When I can make the
        > drive, I attend St. George's parish in Blue Ash (Cincinnati).
        >
        > My wife and I are leaving the OCA parish we helped found. She has
        > questions, I do not.
        >
        > Please help me explain to my wife, Susan, the relationship between the
        > ROCOR and other Orthodox jurisdictions as it is now and vice versa.
        > She is bothered by the OCA proclamation that ROCOR is "Not in
        > communion" with any other Orthodox jurisdiction.
        >
        > We are both converts (1996). We became Orthodox in a local Serbian
        > parish. We left that parish along with the priest and others and
        > eventually were admitted to the OCA. I studied two summers at
        > Jordanville's summer music school.
        >
        > In Christ,
        >
        > Reader Michael Malloy
        > Columbus OH
        >
      • gene703
        Maybe a ROCOR/OCA Reconciliation Committee is in order ? Wouldn t that be nice ? Maybe two local sisters should kiss and make up first before the big Moscow
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 28, 2005
          Maybe a ROCOR/OCA Reconciliation Committee is in order ? Wouldn't that be nice ? Maybe two local sisters should kiss and make up first before the big Moscow thing happens ? Work out the same issues facing MP/ROCOR on a local level, so to speak ?

          Gene T

          James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote:
          Dear in Christ Reader Michael,

          Welcome to the Church Abroad. May God guide you in your path.

          With respect to your wife's questions, these are things that
          ordinarily might be discussed with your parish priest. However, since
          they are of general interest (I have addressed them before on this
          list, in a slightly different context), I will attempt to answer them.

          That the ROCOR is "not in communion with anybody" is a stock phrase
          with some clergy (esp. OCA) that would like to steer people away from
          the Church Abroad, who see the attractions of its traditionalism as a
          threat.

          The question of whom the ROCOR is in communion with is not that
          complicated.

          "De jure," the ROCOR is in communion with all the Local Churches, and
          with certain Old Calendarist groups. This means that, in theory, any
          Orthodox Christian in good standing from one of these jurisdictions
          should be able to request communion in a ROCOR parish. This is
          typically addressed pastorally, on a case by case basis.

          "De facto," ROCOR clergy currently concelebrate with a smaller number
          of jurisdictions. This policy is generally related to objections to
          modernism and/or ecumenical activities, modified by historical
          circumstances. For example, it is not unusual to see ROCOR and
          Serbian clergy serving together; the same, however, could not be said
          of the ROCOR and the OCA.

          People sometime confuse (innocently or willfully) this policy of
          limited clergy concelebration with the absence of communion.

          Since you are coming from an OCA parish, some additional history might
          be helpful. Historically the OCA has been part of the ROCOR, and left
          her (twice). ROCOR/OCA relations, being both fraternal and
          historically painful, are therefore a special case. In the wake of the
          autocephaly, the ROCOR issued (in 1971) a conciliar ukase forbidding
          its members any communion in prayer with the American Metropolia,
          a.k.a. the OCA. This decree is often not observed with respect to
          laymen, especially in areas where mixed families are common, but
          remains of current force. In this context, one might say that the
          ROCOR and the OCA (specifically) are "not in communion." However,
          even this is a bit ambiguous, as the ukase applies to ROCOR members
          communing in OCA parishes, and not vice versa. Relations between the
          ROCOR and the OCA have eased a bit of late; in my own diocese, the
          Sitka Icon of the Theotokos was brought by OCA clergy to our San
          Francisco cathedral for a moleben and veneration by a vast number of
          the faithful.

          I hope the foregoing is helpful. Please feel free to contact me
          off-list with further questions.

          in IC XC,

          Priest James Baglien
          St. Martin Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
          Corvallis, Oregon



          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Malloy"
          <sputnikpsalomschchika@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear friends,
          >
          > I now consider myself to be a member of ROCOR. When I can make the
          > drive, I attend St. George's parish in Blue Ash (Cincinnati).
          >
          > My wife and I are leaving the OCA parish we helped found. She has
          > questions, I do not.
          >
          > Please help me explain to my wife, Susan, the relationship between the
          > ROCOR and other Orthodox jurisdictions as it is now and vice versa.
          > She is bothered by the OCA proclamation that ROCOR is "Not in
          > communion" with any other Orthodox jurisdiction.
          >
          > We are both converts (1996). We became Orthodox in a local Serbian
          > parish. We left that parish along with the priest and others and
          > eventually were admitted to the OCA. I studied two summers at
          > Jordanville's summer music school.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Reader Michael Malloy
          > Columbus OH
          >





          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod





          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "orthodox-synod" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------






          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • michael nikitin
          Could Fr.James please send us the Ukase of 1971 so we can read what it says for ourselves? We would like to see where Fr.James got the idea that those in the
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 28, 2005
            Could Fr.James please send us the Ukase of 1971 so we can read what
            it says for ourselves? We would like to see where Fr.James got the idea
            that those in the OCA can take communion from ROCOR, but we in ROCOR
            cannot take communion from OCA.

            Thankyou.

            Michael N


            James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote: Dear in Christ Reader Michael,

            Welcome to the Church Abroad. May God guide you in your path.

            With respect to your wife's questions, these are things that
            ordinarily might be discussed with your parish priest. However, since
            they are of general interest (I have addressed them before on this
            list, in a slightly different context), I will attempt to answer them.

            That the ROCOR is "not in communion with anybody" is a stock phrase
            with some clergy (esp. OCA) that would like to steer people away from
            the Church Abroad, who see the attractions of its traditionalism as a
            threat.

            The question of whom the ROCOR is in communion with is not that
            complicated.

            "De jure," the ROCOR is in communion with all the Local Churches, and
            with certain Old Calendarist groups. This means that, in theory, any
            Orthodox Christian in good standing from one of these jurisdictions
            should be able to request communion in a ROCOR parish. This is
            typically addressed pastorally, on a case by case basis.

            "De facto," ROCOR clergy currently concelebrate with a smaller number
            of jurisdictions. This policy is generally related to objections to
            modernism and/or ecumenical activities, modified by historical
            circumstances. For example, it is not unusual to see ROCOR and
            Serbian clergy serving together; the same, however, could not be said
            of the ROCOR and the OCA.

            People sometime confuse (innocently or willfully) this policy of
            limited clergy concelebration with the absence of communion.

            Since you are coming from an OCA parish, some additional history might
            be helpful. Historically the OCA has been part of the ROCOR, and left
            her (twice). ROCOR/OCA relations, being both fraternal and
            historically painful, are therefore a special case. In the wake of the
            autocephaly, the ROCOR issued (in 1971) a conciliar ukase forbidding
            its members any communion in prayer with the American Metropolia,
            a.k.a. the OCA. This decree is often not observed with respect to
            laymen, especially in areas where mixed families are common, but
            remains of current force. In this context, one might say that the
            ROCOR and the OCA (specifically) are "not in communion." However,
            even this is a bit ambiguous, as the ukase applies to ROCOR members
            communing in OCA parishes, and not vice versa. Relations between the
            ROCOR and the OCA have eased a bit of late; in my own diocese, the
            Sitka Icon of the Theotokos was brought by OCA clergy to our San
            Francisco cathedral for a moleben and veneration by a vast number of
            the faithful.

            I hope the foregoing is helpful. Please feel free to contact me
            off-list with further questions.

            in IC XC,

            Priest James Baglien
            St. Martin Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
            Corvallis, Oregon




            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: In 1983, there was a Synodal decision in response to questions from some ROCOR clergy as to admitting laity from other Orthodox jurisdictions to the
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 28, 2005
              Michael Nitkin wrote:

              > Could Fr.James please send us the Ukase of 1971 so we can read what
              > it says for ourselves? We would like to see where Fr.James got the idea
              > that those in the OCA can take communion from ROCOR, but we in ROCOR
              > cannot take communion from OCA.

              JRS: In 1983, there was a Synodal decision in response to questions from some ROCOR clergy
              as to admitting laity from other Orthodox jurisdictions to the Sacraments.

              It was stated that laity may be admitted to communion, but not (as of that time) clergy.

              This was not a change, but an affirmation of the practice that had remained in effect.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • DDD
              What s this we in ROCOR business? You mean you receive Holy Communion in churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, whose First Hierarch is Metr. Lavr?
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 28, 2005
                What's this "we in ROCOR" business? You mean you receive Holy Communion in churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, whose First Hierarch is Metr. Lavr? Where and when is the last time you did so?

                --Dimitra

                _________________________________________________
                "Michael Nikitin" wrote:
                 we in ROCOR
                   cannot take communion from OCA.
              • larry most
                GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER DEar gene, That would be WONDERFUL. Love in Christ, Sub-deacon Lawrence Most ... __________________________________
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 29, 2005
                  GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                  DEar gene,
                  That would be WONDERFUL.
                  Love in Christ,
                  Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                  --- gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:

                  > Maybe a ROCOR/OCA Reconciliation Committee is in
                  > order ? Wouldn't that be nice ? Maybe two local
                  > sisters should kiss and make up first before the big
                  > Moscow thing happens ? Work out the same issues
                  > facing MP/ROCOR on a local level, so to speak ?
                  >
                  > Gene T
                  >
                  > James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote:
                  > Dear in Christ Reader Michael,
                  >
                  > Welcome to the Church Abroad. May God guide you in
                  > your path.
                  >
                  > With respect to your wife's questions, these are
                  > things that
                  > ordinarily might be discussed with your parish
                  > priest. However, since
                  > they are of general interest (I have addressed them
                  > before on this
                  > list, in a slightly different context), I will
                  > attempt to answer them.
                  >
                  > That the ROCOR is "not in communion with anybody" is
                  > a stock phrase
                  > with some clergy (esp. OCA) that would like to steer
                  > people away from
                  > the Church Abroad, who see the attractions of its
                  > traditionalism as a
                  > threat.
                  >
                  > The question of whom the ROCOR is in communion with
                  > is not that
                  > complicated.
                  >
                  > "De jure," the ROCOR is in communion with all the
                  > Local Churches, and
                  > with certain Old Calendarist groups. This means
                  > that, in theory, any
                  > Orthodox Christian in good standing from one of
                  > these jurisdictions
                  > should be able to request communion in a ROCOR
                  > parish. This is
                  > typically addressed pastorally, on a case by case
                  > basis.
                  >
                  > "De facto," ROCOR clergy currently concelebrate with
                  > a smaller number
                  > of jurisdictions. This policy is generally related
                  > to objections to
                  > modernism and/or ecumenical activities, modified by
                  > historical
                  > circumstances. For example, it is not unusual to
                  > see ROCOR and
                  > Serbian clergy serving together; the same, however,
                  > could not be said
                  > of the ROCOR and the OCA.
                  >
                  > People sometime confuse (innocently or willfully)
                  > this policy of
                  > limited clergy concelebration with the absence of
                  > communion.
                  >
                  > Since you are coming from an OCA parish, some
                  > additional history might
                  > be helpful. Historically the OCA has been part of
                  > the ROCOR, and left
                  > her (twice). ROCOR/OCA relations, being both
                  > fraternal and
                  > historically painful, are therefore a special case.
                  > In the wake of the
                  > autocephaly, the ROCOR issued (in 1971) a conciliar
                  > ukase forbidding
                  > its members any communion in prayer with the
                  > American Metropolia,
                  > a.k.a. the OCA. This decree is often not observed
                  > with respect to
                  > laymen, especially in areas where mixed families are
                  > common, but
                  > remains of current force. In this context, one
                  > might say that the
                  > ROCOR and the OCA (specifically) are "not in
                  > communion." However,
                  > even this is a bit ambiguous, as the ukase applies
                  > to ROCOR members
                  > communing in OCA parishes, and not vice versa.
                  > Relations between the
                  > ROCOR and the OCA have eased a bit of late; in my
                  > own diocese, the
                  > Sitka Icon of the Theotokos was brought by OCA
                  > clergy to our San
                  > Francisco cathedral for a moleben and veneration by
                  > a vast number of
                  > the faithful.
                  >
                  > I hope the foregoing is helpful. Please feel free
                  > to contact me
                  > off-list with further questions.
                  >
                  > in IC XC,
                  >
                  > Priest James Baglien
                  > St. Martin Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                  > Corvallis, Oregon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael
                  > Malloy"
                  > <sputnikpsalomschchika@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear friends,
                  > >
                  > > I now consider myself to be a member of ROCOR.
                  > When I can make the
                  > > drive, I attend St. George's parish in Blue Ash
                  > (Cincinnati).
                  > >
                  > > My wife and I are leaving the OCA parish we helped
                  > found. She has
                  > > questions, I do not.
                  > >
                  > > Please help me explain to my wife, Susan, the
                  > relationship between the
                  > > ROCOR and other Orthodox jurisdictions as it is
                  > now and vice versa.
                  > > She is bothered by the OCA proclamation that ROCOR
                  > is "Not in
                  > > communion" with any other Orthodox jurisdiction.
                  > >
                  > > We are both converts (1996). We became Orthodox in
                  > a local Serbian
                  > > parish. We left that parish along with the priest
                  > and others and
                  > > eventually were admitted to the OCA. I studied two
                  > summers at
                  > > Jordanville's summer music school.
                  > >
                  > > In Christ,
                  > >
                  > > Reader Michael Malloy
                  > > Columbus OH
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Archives located at
                  > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit your group "orthodox-synod" on the web.
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                  > to:
                  > orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million
                  > songs. Try it free.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >




                  __________________________________
                  Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                • vkozyreff
                  Dear Dimitra, I think that it is unchristian to exclude anybody on the basis of communion. I think the ROCOR should do everything to resolve the schism that
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 29, 2005
                    Dear Dimitra,

                    I think that it is unchristian to exclude anybody on the basis of
                    communion.

                    I think the ROCOR should do everything to resolve the schism that has
                    occured in her bosom.

                    Whenever we feel irritation coming up in our heart, let us take a
                    pause whatever we are doing, because we are necessarily about to
                    commit a sin. I should apply this much more often myself.

                    Do you know where the Church is not?

                    In Christ,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff


                    "Eucharistic communion permits only one kind of exclusion: the
                    exclusion of exclusion: all those things that involve rejection and
                    division, which in principle distort Trinitarian faith. Heresy
                    involves a distorted faith that has inevitable practical consequences
                    concerning communion and otherness. Schism is also an act of
                    exclusion; when schism occurs, the eucharistic community becomes
                    exclusive. In the case of both heresy and schism, we cannot pretend
                    that we have communion with the other when in fact we have not".

                    http://paradosis.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_paradosis_archive.html

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > What's this "we in ROCOR" business? You mean you receive Holy
                    Communion in churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, whose
                    First Hierarch is Metr. Lavr? Where and when is the last time you
                    did so?
                    >
                    > --Dimitra
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________
                    > "Michael Nikitin" wrote:
                    >  we in ROCOR
                    >    cannot take communion from OCA.
                    >
                  • James Baglien
                    ... the idea ... Despite the disrespectful tone of Mr. Nikitin s question, for the benefit of those who might be sincerely interested in this matter, an
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 29, 2005
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                      <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Could Fr.James please send us the Ukase of 1971 so we can read what
                      > it says for ourselves? We would like to see where Fr.James got
                      the idea
                      > that those in the OCA can take communion from ROCOR, but we in ROCOR
                      > cannot take communion from OCA.
                      >
                      > Thankyou.
                      >
                      > Michael N


                      Despite the disrespectful tone of Mr. Nikitin's question, for the
                      benefit of those who might be sincerely interested in this matter, an
                      English translation of the 1971 Ukase follows (Fr. John or others
                      might wish to commment on its accuracy):

                      "FROM THE RESOLUTION AND DECISIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF BISHOPS OF 1971

                      PROTOCOL #8

                      With regard to the question of relations with the so-called Metropolia,

                      RESOLVED:

                      The Council of Bishops, having listened to the report of the Synod of
                      Bishops concerning the so-called Metropolia's having received
                      autocephaly from the Patriarchate of Moscow, approves all the steps
                      taken in due course by the Synod of Bishops to convince Metropolitan
                      Irenei and his colleagues of the perniciousness of a step which
                      deepens the division which was the result of the decision of the
                      Cleveland Council of 1946 which broke away from the Russian Orthodox
                      Church Outside of Russia.

                      The American Metropolia has received its autocephaly from the
                      Patriarchate of Moscow, which has not possessed genuine canonical
                      succession from His Holiness Patriarch Tikhon from the time when
                      Metropolitan Sergy, who later called himself Patriarch, violated his
                      oath with regard to Metropolitan Peter, the locum tenens of the
                      Patriarchal Throne, and set out upon a path which was then condemned
                      by the senior hierarchs of the Church of Russia. Submitting all the
                      more to the commands of the atheistic, anti-Christian regime, the
                      Patriarchate of Moscow has ceased to be that which expresses the voice
                      of the Russian Orthodox Church. For this reason, as the Synod of
                      Bishops has correctly declared, none of its acts, including the
                      bestowal of autocephaly upon the American Metropolia, has legal force.
                      Furthermore, apart from this, the act, which affects rights of many
                      churches, has elicited definite protests on the part of a number of
                      Orthodox Churches, who have even severed communion with the American
                      Metropolia.

                      Viewing this illicit act with sorrow, and acknowledging it to be null
                      and void, the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                      Outside of Russia, which has hitherto not abandoned hope for the
                      restoration of ecclesiastical unity in America, sees in the
                      declaration of American autocephaly a step which will lead the
                      American Metropolia yet farther away from the ecclesiastical unity of
                      the Church of Russia. Perceiving therein a great sin against the
                      enslaved and suffering Church of Russia, the Council of Bishops DECIDES:

                      henceforth, neither the clergy, nor the laity are to have communion in
                      prayer or the divine services with the hierarchy or clergy of the
                      American Metropolia. "

                      This document is addressed to our flock, not to the OCA. Specifically, it
                      restricts participation by the flock of the ROCOR in the services of
                      the Metropolia/OCA. As Fr. John has pointed out, it did not change
                      the policies of our Church toward communing members of other
                      jurisdictions.

                      Anticipating the counter-arguments that might be raised, consider the
                      following:

                      Understanding the ukase as unilateral precisely parallels (while
                      differing entirely in degree) the interpretation of the canonical
                      prohibition against prayer outside the Church, which does not preclude
                      outsiders from joining in *our* prayers.

                      The intent of this ukase was to protect the faithful of the ROCOR from
                      an ecclesial situation which she regards as irregular. To claim that
                      such a ukase should be applied reciprocally is to argue, in essence,
                      that the faithful of the OCA need to be protected from contact with the
                      ROCOR . . .

                      in IC XC,

                      Priest James
                    • Michael Malloy
                      Gene and Larry bring up an interesting point of view. I am a convert. By my own choice I am now identified as part of ROCOR. Having experienced the spiritual
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 29, 2005
                        Gene and Larry bring up an interesting point of view.

                        I am a convert. By my own choice I am now identified as part of ROCOR.

                        Having experienced the spiritual atmosphere of Holy Trinity Monastery
                        at Jordanville and parish life in Ohio in the OCA, I would think more
                        work would be needed to reconcile the OCA to ROCOR than ROCOR and the
                        MP. I chose my words carefully.

                        I have witnessed hostility toward ROCOR on the part of certain OCA
                        clergy bordering on hysterical. On the other hand, I have witnessed
                        ROCOR clergy not speaking ill of the OCA at all.

                        From my limited point of view and experience, it seems the ROCOR has
                        more in common with the MP than the OCA has with the ROCOR.

                        Reader Michael Malloy
                        Columbus OH

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most <larrymost2002@y...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                        > DEar gene,
                        > That would be WONDERFUL.
                        > Love in Christ,
                        > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                        >
                        > --- gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Maybe a ROCOR/OCA Reconciliation Committee is in
                        > > order ? Wouldn't that be nice ? Maybe two local
                        > > sisters should kiss and make up first before the big
                        > > Moscow thing happens ? Work out the same issues
                        > > facing MP/ROCOR on a local level, so to speak ?
                        > >
                        > > Gene T
                      • James Baglien
                        ... Your sentiments are praiseworthy, but a bit Americo-centric in perspective. The reality runs up against some very hard rocks : 1) The discussions
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 29, 2005
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most <larrymost2002@y...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                          > DEar gene,
                          > That would be WONDERFUL.
                          > Love in Christ,
                          > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                          >
                          > --- gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Maybe a ROCOR/OCA Reconciliation Committee is in
                          > > order ? Wouldn't that be nice ? Maybe two local
                          > > sisters should kiss and make up first before the big
                          > > Moscow thing happens ? Work out the same issues
                          > > facing MP/ROCOR on a local level, so to speak ?
                          > >
                          > > Gene T

                          Your sentiments are praiseworthy, but a bit "Americo-centric" in
                          perspective. The reality runs up against some very hard "rocks":

                          1) The discussions between the MP and the ROCOR are framed in the
                          context of reconciliation within the *Russian* Church. Since the OCA
                          claims to be *American* (and autocephalus), it by definition excludes
                          itself from the conversation. (I understand that an inquiry was made
                          by the OCA to the MP concerning the possibility of their participation
                          in the joint talks, and the official reply was precisely that: "these
                          matters are an internal affair of the Russian Church.")

                          2) The ROCOR has parishes in approximately 40 countries around the
                          world. The OCA is an American church (albeit one with parishes in
                          Canada, Mexico, and ?). As a practical matter, reconciliation between
                          the ROCOR and the OCA could occur only in the context of a return of
                          the OCA to the worldwide mission of the ROCOR, with the abandonment of
                          its premature pretentions to American autocephaly. Although many
                          would regard this as a positive step, the liklihood of such a "change
                          of heart" on the part of the OCA hierarchs seems very remote.

                          Priest James Baglien
                        • Dimitri G Temidis
                          Test
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 30, 2005
                            Test
                          • larry most
                            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER DEar Father James, Thank you for the reply. It dosen t matter (to me) whether they unite like under one Bishop,
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 1, 2005
                              GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                              DEar Father James,
                              Thank you for the reply. It dosen't matter (to me)
                              whether they "unite" like under one Bishop, but please
                              be civil to each other. I've experience some rather
                              "poor" comments from both sides, regarding the other,
                              and I don't see where that does any good. If Orthodox
                              has any faults, one would be sometimes they are overly
                              nationlistic, ie, Russian Church is somehow "holier"
                              than the Greek Church, which is somehow better
                              than,maybe the Antiochain Church, and then you can go
                              "nuts" over which calendar. To me (just my very humble
                              opinion) this just tears the One Holy Orthodox Church
                              apart, and we should know better.
                              Love in Christ,
                              Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                              --- James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote:

                              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                              > <larrymost2002@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                              > > DEar gene,
                              > > That would be WONDERFUL.
                              > > Love in Christ,
                              > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                              > >
                              > > --- gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Maybe a ROCOR/OCA Reconciliation Committee is
                              > in
                              > > > order ? Wouldn't that be nice ? Maybe two local
                              > > > sisters should kiss and make up first before the
                              > big
                              > > > Moscow thing happens ? Work out the same issues
                              > > > facing MP/ROCOR on a local level, so to speak ?
                              > > >
                              > > > Gene T
                              >
                              > Your sentiments are praiseworthy, but a bit
                              > "Americo-centric" in
                              > perspective. The reality runs up against some very
                              > hard "rocks":
                              >
                              > 1) The discussions between the MP and the ROCOR are
                              > framed in the
                              > context of reconciliation within the *Russian*
                              > Church. Since the OCA
                              > claims to be *American* (and autocephalus), it by
                              > definition excludes
                              > itself from the conversation. (I understand that an
                              > inquiry was made
                              > by the OCA to the MP concerning the possibility of
                              > their participation
                              > in the joint talks, and the official reply was
                              > precisely that: "these
                              > matters are an internal affair of the Russian
                              > Church.")
                              >
                              > 2) The ROCOR has parishes in approximately 40
                              > countries around the
                              > world. The OCA is an American church (albeit one
                              > with parishes in
                              > Canada, Mexico, and ?). As a practical matter,
                              > reconciliation between
                              > the ROCOR and the OCA could occur only in the
                              > context of a return of
                              > the OCA to the worldwide mission of the ROCOR, with
                              > the abandonment of
                              > its premature pretentions to American autocephaly.
                              > Although many
                              > would regard this as a positive step, the liklihood
                              > of such a "change
                              > of heart" on the part of the OCA hierarchs seems
                              > very remote.
                              >
                              > Priest James Baglien
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >




                              __________________________________
                              Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                              Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
                              http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
                            • michael nikitin
                              Is it true what priest James states? Does ROCOR commune those in the OCA, but are forbidden to take communion from the OCA? Michael N ... the idea ... Despite
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 1, 2005
                                Is it true what priest James states? Does ROCOR commune those in the OCA, but are forbidden to take communion from the OCA?

                                Michael N

                                James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote:
                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Could Fr.James please send us the Ukase of 1971 so we can read what
                                > it says for ourselves? We would like to see where Fr.James got
                                the idea
                                > that those in the OCA can take communion from ROCOR, but we in ROCOR
                                > cannot take communion from OCA.
                                >
                                > Thankyou.
                                >
                                > Michael N


                                Despite the disrespectful tone of Mr. Nikitin's question, for the
                                benefit of those who might be sincerely interested in this matter, an
                                English translation of the 1971 Ukase follows (Fr. John or others
                                might wish to commment on its accuracy):

                                "FROM THE RESOLUTION AND DECISIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF BISHOPS OF 1971

                                PROTOCOL #8

                                With regard to the question of relations with the so-called Metropolia,

                                RESOLVED:

                                The Council of Bishops, having listened to the report of the Synod of
                                Bishops concerning the so-called Metropolia's having received
                                autocephaly from the Patriarchate of Moscow, approves all the steps
                                taken in due course by the Synod of Bishops to convince Metropolitan
                                Irenei and his colleagues of the perniciousness of a step which
                                deepens the division which was the result of the decision of the
                                Cleveland Council of 1946 which broke away from the Russian Orthodox
                                Church Outside of Russia.

                                The American Metropolia has received its autocephaly from the
                                Patriarchate of Moscow, which has not possessed genuine canonical
                                succession from His Holiness Patriarch Tikhon from the time when
                                Metropolitan Sergy, who later called himself Patriarch, violated his
                                oath with regard to Metropolitan Peter, the locum tenens of the
                                Patriarchal Throne, and set out upon a path which was then condemned
                                by the senior hierarchs of the Church of Russia. Submitting all the
                                more to the commands of the atheistic, anti-Christian regime, the
                                Patriarchate of Moscow has ceased to be that which expresses the voice
                                of the Russian Orthodox Church. For this reason, as the Synod of
                                Bishops has correctly declared, none of its acts, including the
                                bestowal of autocephaly upon the American Metropolia, has legal force.
                                Furthermore, apart from this, the act, which affects rights of many
                                churches, has elicited definite protests on the part of a number of
                                Orthodox Churches, who have even severed communion with the American
                                Metropolia.

                                Viewing this illicit act with sorrow, and acknowledging it to be null
                                and void, the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                                Outside of Russia, which has hitherto not abandoned hope for the
                                restoration of ecclesiastical unity in America, sees in the
                                declaration of American autocephaly a step which will lead the
                                American Metropolia yet farther away from the ecclesiastical unity of
                                the Church of Russia. Perceiving therein a great sin against the
                                enslaved and suffering Church of Russia, the Council of Bishops DECIDES:

                                henceforth, neither the clergy, nor the laity are to have communion in
                                prayer or the divine services with the hierarchy or clergy of the
                                American Metropolia. "

                                This document is addressed to our flock, not to the OCA. Specifically, it
                                restricts participation by the flock of the ROCOR in the services of
                                the Metropolia/OCA. As Fr. John has pointed out, it did not change
                                the policies of our Church toward communing members of other
                                jurisdictions.

                                Anticipating the counter-arguments that might be raised, consider the
                                following:

                                Understanding the ukase as unilateral precisely parallels (while
                                differing entirely in degree) the interpretation of the canonical
                                prohibition against prayer outside the Church, which does not preclude
                                outsiders from joining in *our* prayers.

                                The intent of this ukase was to protect the faithful of the ROCOR from
                                an ecclesial situation which she regards as irregular. To claim that
                                such a ukase should be applied reciprocally is to argue, in essence,
                                that the faithful of the OCA need to be protected from contact with the
                                ROCOR . . .

                                in IC XC,

                                Priest James


                                ---------------------------------
                                Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.