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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Bush Forbids the Ambassador of the US to Attend Church of the MP

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  • Michael Coleman
    Dear Masha, Your points are well taken; accepting a news article without fact checking is foolish. Without defending Fr. Alexander on any political or
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 3, 2005
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      Dear Masha,

      Your points are well taken; accepting a news article without fact checking is foolish. Without defending Fr. Alexander on any political or ecclesiastical point, I think maybe his original intent at the bottom of his original post may not have been actually to slander your father by accusing him of Sergianism, but rather to use your father's service to our country as an analogue to Sergianism that some might use to discredit your father as well as the ROCOR-MP rapprochement in general.

      In other words, I took it that Fr. Alexander was not saying your dad was a Sergianist, but: How foolish to say the entire MP is without grace (and therefore we should not reunite with it) simply because the leadership of the MP has cooperated with the Soviet governmental authority! And why is it foolish? Because we ourselves (ROCOR) also utilize the talents of a governmental official and son of ROCOR. Fr. Alexander is asking (taunting) his opposition thus: shall we then call ROCOR Sergianist because Ambassador Herbst is a ROCOR delegate? I believe he would answer no to that question.

      Fr. Alexander, am I right in this?

      Your friend,

      Misha
      St Luke Orthodox Church
      Garden Grove, CA

      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      Regarding:

      > When I read the ridiculous article about my father that Fr. Alexander
      > posted on this list this morning, my initial reaction was amusement.
      > To what depths had this journalist sunk in order to get a "scoop?"
      > Not even having spoken to my parents about it yet, I knew that none
      > of it was true.

      JRS: Obviously, we all should have been more careful before believing this story. This is not
      the first time journalistic misstatements have figured in the debates about reconciliation in
      the Russian Church.

      However, the allegations did "hit a nerve" for many of us, especially those who have been
      disturbed by our country's foreign policy, such as partisan involvement in the election of
      Yushchenko in the Ukraine.

      In Fr. Alexander's defense, though, I doubt he knew the Herbst family, or had any way of
      readily checking the story.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw







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    • gene703
      Dear Misha, There is a huge difference between russian state security officials appointing and sometimes outright slaughtering bishops and clergy ( that s the
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 3, 2005
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        Dear Misha,

        There is a huge difference between russian state security officials appointing and sometimes outright slaughtering bishops and clergy ( that's the other side of sergianism proper for you ) and a private US citizen (when mr. Herbst goes to sunday services I am sure he does not go there as a US ambassador) openly participating in the affairs of his US based church as a publicly, I dare say democratically, elected delegate to to the sobor. See what I mean ?

        Gene

        Michael Coleman <usmichael_fws_net@...> wrote:
        Dear Masha,

        Your points are well taken; accepting a news article without fact checking is foolish. Without defending Fr. Alexander on any political or ecclesiastical point, I think maybe his original intent at the bottom of his original post may not have been actually to slander your father by accusing him of Sergianism, but rather to use your father's service to our country as an analogue to Sergianism that some might use to discredit your father as well as the ROCOR-MP rapprochement in general.

        In other words, I took it that Fr. Alexander was not saying your dad was a Sergianist, but: How foolish to say the entire MP is without grace (and therefore we should not reunite with it) simply because the leadership of the MP has cooperated with the Soviet governmental authority! And why is it foolish? Because we ourselves (ROCOR) also utilize the talents of a governmental official and son of ROCOR. Fr. Alexander is asking (taunting) his opposition thus: shall we then call ROCOR Sergianist because Ambassador Herbst is a ROCOR delegate? I believe he would answer no to that question.

        Fr. Alexander, am I right in this?

        Your friend,

        Misha
        St Luke Orthodox Church
        Garden Grove, CA

        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        Regarding:

        > When I read the ridiculous article about my father that Fr. Alexander
        > posted on this list this morning, my initial reaction was amusement.
        > To what depths had this journalist sunk in order to get a "scoop?"
        > Not even having spoken to my parents about it yet, I knew that none
        > of it was true.

        JRS: Obviously, we all should have been more careful before believing this story. This is not
        the first time journalistic misstatements have figured in the debates about reconciliation in
        the Russian Church.

        However, the allegations did "hit a nerve" for many of us, especially those who have been
        disturbed by our country's foreign policy, such as partisan involvement in the election of
        Yushchenko in the Ukraine.

        In Fr. Alexander's defense, though, I doubt he knew the Herbst family, or had any way of
        readily checking the story.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw







        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod





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      • Carol Surgant
        I am distressed that Ambassador Herbst has been slandered in this way. My apologies to the Hebst family for those of us who believed this story. The story had
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 3, 2005
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          I am distressed that Ambassador Herbst has been slandered in this way. My apologies to the Hebst family for those of us who believed this story.
          The story had elements that appeared credible at first glance given our current focus on "political correctness' and growing religious supression in the U.S.

          For anyone concerned that the Russian government is interfering in Church affairs, perhaps you should look first at what is going on in this country.

          In a current controversy in the US military, Airforce chaplains have been prohibited from using the name "Jesus" in open prayer, since it might offend someone. This is a dramatic contrast with Russia today where priests are encouraged to have an active presence on military bases and in war zones. I observed in churches in the former Soviet Union, men in police and military uniforms also attending the services-- not to take notes on who was there as in Soviet times, -- but concentrated in prayer, making the sign of the cross and prostrations, waiting in long lines for confession and communion, standing long periods after the service for Pannychidas, and bringing their children to baptism. Yet in this country, last year an army general was reprimanded for publicly speaking about his faith while in uniform.
          50 years ago in this country, students were allowed to read the Bible as literature and for moral intruction in American public schools. This is no longer permitted in US public schools, yet Orthodoxy is now being taught in schools in Russia.
          The Canadian government prohibits religious ministers (or anyone else) from openly speaking against homosexuality. We are probably close to such a prohibition in this country, a threat against our churches' tax-exemption based on such "discrimination" and and if our country follows Canada, even prosecution for "hate speech" of a priest/minister who dares to openly preach what God has taught us.
          If current trends continue, it may come about that the Orthodox Church is less persecuted in Russia than in America! Perhaps the Moscow Patriarchate should be concerned that the US government is interfering too much in our church life.

          In Christ,
          Carol Surgant

          mh2t <mh2t@...> wrote:
          When I read the ridiculous article about my father ...


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          ... Michael is absolutely correct. The comments at the end of the post were meant as a challenge to those who would call Sergianist any cooperation between
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 3, 2005
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            At 08:21 AM 11/3/2005, Michael Coleman wrote:

            >Dear Masha,
            >
            >Your points are well taken; accepting a news article without fact
            >checking is foolish. Without defending Fr. Alexander on any
            >political or ecclesiastical point, I think maybe his original intent
            >at the bottom of his original post may not have been actually to
            >slander your father by accusing him of Sergianism, but rather to use
            >your father's service to our country as an analogue to Sergianism
            >that some might use to discredit your father as well as the ROCOR-MP
            >rapprochement in general.
            >
            >In other words, I took it that Fr. Alexander was not saying your dad
            >was a Sergianist, but: How foolish to say the entire MP is without
            >grace (and therefore we should not reunite with it) simply because
            >the leadership of the MP has cooperated with the Soviet governmental
            >authority! And why is it foolish? Because we ourselves (ROCOR)
            >also utilize the talents of a governmental official and son of
            >ROCOR. Fr. Alexander is asking (taunting) his opposition
            >thus: shall we then call ROCOR Sergianist because Ambassador Herbst
            >is a ROCOR delegate? I believe he would answer no to that question.
            >
            >Fr. Alexander, am I right in this?
            >
            >Your friend,
            >
            >Misha
            >St Luke Orthodox Church
            >Garden Grove, CA


            Michael is absolutely correct.

            The comments at the end of the post were meant as a challenge to
            those who would call "Sergianist" any cooperation between the Church
            and the State, or the participation of government officials in Church matters.

            They were in no way intended to disparage Mr. Herbst or his service
            to the American government or his Church.

            I apologize to anyone who may have misunderstood what I was trying to
            say. I should have been more clear.

            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff



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