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Re: Apostolic Succession [was: Reflections]

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father John, bless. You write: ...Vladimir Kozyreff...seems to have a different understanding of the expression Apostolic succession than the rest of
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 3, 2005
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      Dear Father John, bless.

      You write: "...Vladimir Kozyreff...seems to have a different
      understanding of the expression "Apostolic succession" than the rest
      of us do". And you go on, defining apostolic succession as a formal
      and mechanical thing.

      Your understanding of apostolic succession is an oversimplification.
      This oversimplification is needed to those who claim the MP has
      apostolic succession.

      Please see comments below. I suppose you will appreciate their origin.

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      The Church understands Apostolic succession not merely as an external
      mechanical transfer of the very act of ordination but also the faith
      connected with this act namely the preservation of the Apostolic
      teaching on the grace of priesthood within a given group.

      This doesn't tie in too well with the view being analyzed. To receive
      an empty form lacking in grace, and at the same time to believe, in
      accordance with the Apostolic teaching, that one is receiving Divine
      grace, and to experience with this the appropriate thoughts and
      feelings, would be a self-delusion or, in theological language, a

      Novelties are not to be indulged in but should be fought with all
      available means. It would appear that in this case the Church somehow
      is attempting to keep the person undisturbed in his novelty, as if it
      is afraid to disturb the person's false convictions that he received
      effective grace in his heterodox ordination. Leaving aside the need
      for an Orthodox ordination the Church invents a special order for
      reception, that through the Mystery of repentance to convey
      implicite, and imperceptibly to the recipient, the grace of

      Thus it would be closer to the truth and to the teaching of the
      Church to assume that where, outside the Church, the Apostolic
      succession, i.e. the Apostolic form of ordination and the Apostolic
      teaching about the grace of the priesthood has been preserved, there
      in the mind of the Church, ordination is not simply a form without
      grace and thus is not repeated in receiving such clerics into the
      Orthodox priesthood.


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      > > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
      > > >Who would believe that the day before democracy "arrived" in
      > > >the MP was not the Church, and we did not have to unite with it,
      > > >since "democracy arrived", the MP all of a sudden got an
      > > >sucession which did not exist before?
      > Fr. Alexander Lebedeff replied:
      > > When exactly do you feel did the MP lose apostolic succession?
      > > Every bishop of the MP has apostolic succession from Patriarch
      > > Sergius (Stragorodsky) or Patriarch Alexei I (Simanskiy) --both
      > > consecrated to the episcopate before the Russian Revolution (the
      > > first in 1901, and the latter in 1913).
      > JRS: The difficulty here in debating with Vladimir Kozyreff is that
      he seems to have a different
      > understanding of the expression "Apostolic succession" than the
      rest of us do.
      > As taught universally by the Church, "Apostolic succession" means
      that a given bishop was
      > consecrated (ordained) by other bishops, who in turn had been
      consecrated by bishops
      > before them, ultimately going back to the Apostles.
      > The Apostles consecrated their successors, by the laying on of
      > Each new bishop since that time has received the laying on of hands
      that goes back, in
      > unbroken succession, to the Apostles.
      > That is why at least two bishops are supposed to consecrate any
      given candidate: to make
      > doubly certain that the succession of laying on of hands was
      > But Vladimir Kozyreff, at least in earlier debates with me, has
      indicated that to him,
      > "Apostolic succession" means something entirely different.
      > Mr Kozyreff appears to view "Apostolic succession" as meaning
      someone is a worthy (i.e.
      > approved) spiritual heir of the Apostles, not that he has an
      unbroken sequence of ordination
      > from the Apostles.
      > But the Church does not view hierarchs in such terms at all. Who is
      to judge what is in
      > another's heart?
      > Not liking someone (perhaps without really knowing anything about
      them) cannot deprive
      > them of Apostolic succession.
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • orthodoxchurch_sg
      ... anything, unless it s corrected. ... it the other way around? ... Patriarch s uncanonical, without force, etc...or did they not sign it? Evlogeite! The
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 6, 2005
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
        <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
        > This Apostolic succession is just a formality. Doesn't mean
        anything, unless it's corrected.
        > When are we going to correct all the ordinations of the MP? Or is
        it the other way around?
        > Don't forget our Synod's 1971 resolution finding the MP's
        Patriarch's uncanonical, without force, etc...or did they not sign

        The ROCOR Synod said that the Election was uncanonical. All
        jurisdictions - as far as I am aware - have done things which are
        uncanonical, but this doesnt deprive them of Grace automatically.
        There are canonical ages for ordination to priesthood and episcopacy,
        for example. The Greek Old Calendar jurisdictions have in most cases
        ordained men below this canonical age. When I was a member of ROCOR
        in the 1980s one of the clergy used to arrive in church in blazer and
        boater and change for the services; the services were truncated
        horribly; the services were in a language hardly anybody understood;
        people paid for Confession. All of these things are uncanonical, are
        they not?
        Canonically we are forbidden to marry our godparents yet I know of at
        least one Traditional Orthodox who has done this. Canonically we are
        excommunicated if we do not attend Church for three weeks. When was
        the last time this actually occured? Retired Bishops are not allowed
        to have jurisdiction, yet ROCiE's Ruling Hierarch is retired.
        Yes, the election of the Patriarch in 1971 was uncanonical - there
        was secular interference, as there was with the election of every
        Metropolitan between the reigns of Peter the Great and S. Nicolas II.
        Was the taking of S. John of Shanghai to court canonical?
        Even in Texas they dont give the death penalty for every crime.
        God bless / Fr Daniel
      • michael nikitin
        orthodoxchurch_sg wrote: Even in Texas they dont give the death penalty for every crime. God bless / Fr Daniel Exactly
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 7, 2005
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          orthodoxchurch_sg <orthodoxchurch_sg@...> wrote:
          "Even in Texas they dont give the death penalty for every crime."
          God bless / Fr Daniel

          Exactly Fr.Daniel. There are different canons. Some are more strictly followed
          than others. You're trying to justify something you are not familiar with. Whoever told you that doesn't understand the canons well either.

          The Synod proclaimed the Resolution of 1971. Fr. John claims one has to be taken
          to court and judged...well, the MP were and were found guilty. The sentence was that the hierarch's are uncanonical and have no force. If they have no force, they
          cannot bestow grace upon anything they do. They are nothing but laypeople posing as hierarch's. The Church cannot have any dialogue with this kind.

          Michael N

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