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Re: [orthodox-synod] off topic? Strange question re: bears.

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  • variorum@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/4/05 4:24:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, matanna@aol.com writes: What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 4, 2005
      In a message dated 10/4/05 4:24:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      matanna@... writes:

      What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
      wolves that they shot?



      Bears were and still are commonly eaten wherever they occur in nature. Bear
      meat is somewhat gamy, but tasty. In the more affluent societies it is
      usually marinated, then roasted.
      Wolves are not usually eaten, but when famine strikes, any meat is welcome,
      be it wolf, dog, cat, or even rat.
      The French, by the way, will eat anything, including horse, snail, and frog.
      But why the question on an Orthodox list?
      Guten Apetit...
      Vladimir



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Matushka, Bears are not that terrible to orthodox. One was a friend to St Seraphim of Sarov. http://www.vniief.ru/church/holy.html Another one rescued
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 4, 2005
        Dear Matushka,

        Bears are not that terrible to orthodox.

        One was a friend to St Seraphim of Sarov.

        http://www.vniief.ru/church/holy.html

        Another one rescued Metropolitan Peter while in exile. He was thrown
        out of railway a carriage to freeze to death, while Met Sergius was
        writing declarations.

        http://www.synodinresistance.gr/Theo_en/E3d5023NMPetr.pdf

        Holy martyr St Dorymedon was spared by the bear to which he had been
        given by his torturers to be eaten up.

        http://www.orthodox.net/menaion-september/19-holy-martyrs-trophimus-
        sabbatius-and-dorymedon.html

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
        <matanna@a...> wrote:
        > Recently I gave someone the "Little House" books in which Papa
        shoots
        > bear and they use bear grease on traps and the furs for jackets. I
        > read a hilarious article by Jean Kerr once about the time that her
        > mother told the children in her family they could each invite a
        > friend for dinner and served what later turned out to be bear meat.
        > And I was wondering, and thought surely someone on this list would
        > know:
        >
        > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
        > wolves that they shot?
        >
        > Did human consume the meat? Did pets?
        >
        > Is there a canon against eating things that could potentially eat
        > people?
        >
        > These are strange questions, but I thought people on this list were
        > more likely to know than anyone else.
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Matushka Ann Lardas
      • Fr. Alexey Chumakov
        I ve tried bear meat once, in early 80 s, it was pretty terrible and did not feel right, almost like eating human flesh. Bears were mostly hunted for fur in
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
          I've tried bear meat once, in early 80's, it was pretty terrible and
          did not feel right, almost like eating human flesh.
          Bears were mostly hunted for fur in Russia, and not for meat. Fat was
          also supposed to have some kind of medicinal value, but, generally, it
          was the game that nobility played.
          Same for wolves, no one in his sane mind would eat a wolf, it was only
          hunted for fur and as a trophee.


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, variorum@a... wrote:
          >
          > In a message dated 10/4/05 4:24:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          > matanna@a... writes:
          >
          > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
          > wolves that they shot?
          >
          >
          >
          > Bears were and still are commonly eaten wherever they occur in
          nature. Bear
          > meat is somewhat gamy, but tasty. In the more affluent societies
          it is
          > usually marinated, then roasted.
          > Wolves are not usually eaten, but when famine strikes, any meat is
          welcome,
          > be it wolf, dog, cat, or even rat.
          > The French, by the way, will eat anything, including horse, snail,
          and frog.
          > But why the question on an Orthodox list?
          > Guten Apetit...
          > Vladimir
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. Alexey Chumakov
          In pre-Nikonian times Russians were pretty strict about those things and eating carnivores would fall under skvernoyadenie , that is, eating fobidden things.
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
            In pre-Nikonian times Russians were pretty strict about those things
            and eating carnivores would fall under "skvernoyadenie", that is,
            eating fobidden things. Same for animals caught by strangling (such as
            hares) and for eating products made of blood (such as blood sausages).
            There is a special prayer rule for those who sinned in this way...

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
            <matanna@a...> wrote:
            > Recently I gave someone the "Little House" books in which Papa shoots
            > bear and they use bear grease on traps and the furs for jackets. I
            > read a hilarious article by Jean Kerr once about the time that her
            > mother told the children in her family they could each invite a
            > friend for dinner and served what later turned out to be bear meat.
            > And I was wondering, and thought surely someone on this list would
            > know:
            >
            > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
            > wolves that they shot?
            >
            > Did human consume the meat? Did pets?
            >
            > Is there a canon against eating things that could potentially eat
            > people?
            >
            > These are strange questions, but I thought people on this list were
            > more likely to know than anyone else.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Matushka Ann Lardas
          • Michael Malloy
            ... I suppose if one MUST kill a bear, it would be good to use the remains for something. Years ago, long before we were Orthodox, my wife and I fell in love
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
              <matanna@a...> wrote:
              > Recently I gave someone the "Little House" books in which Papa shoots
              > bear and they use bear grease on traps and the furs for jackets.

              I suppose if one MUST kill a bear, it would be good to use the remains
              for something.

              Years ago, long before we were Orthodox, my wife and I fell in love
              with "Bart the Bear" through the motion picture "The Bear" based on
              "The Grizzly King : A Romance of the Wild" by James Oliver Curwood.
              We see these fearsome wild animals in a different light thanks to that
              excellent motion picture.

              Because "Man" is the most dangerous animal on the planet, I'm less
              inclined to approve of killing bears.

              Reader Michael Malloy
              Living in Columbus OH
              Worshiping in Cincinnati OH
            • DDD
              Bless, Fathers, Ever since I re-read the part in the Acts about the Gentile converts not having to obey the Law of Moses, except for strangled animals and
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                Bless, Fathers,

                Ever since I re-read the part in the Acts about the Gentile converts not having to obey the Law of Moses, except for strangled animals and blood, I feel a little funny with steak au jus--isn't that blood, and if so, are we allowed to eat it?
                On the other hand, why would we have to keep just that and not all the rest of the Mosaic law? And if we really keep that, wouldn't we have to "kosher" our meat by washing and salting the daylights out of it just the same way the Jews do?
                Finally, how did this restriction about carnivore foods (and strangled and blood) being "skverdoedenie" eventually get dropped (or ignored)?

                Thank you for any answers and asking your prayers,
                Dimitra

                P.S. The other parts of the Apostolic prohibition are immorality and things sacrificed to idols. I used to think the latter was moot, but there's a neat Indian store in Cambridge that has sesame chikki--a nice fasting sweet--as well as lots of other vegetarian food. They are obviously Hindu and have all sorts of idols around. Who knows whether they offer their stuff to idols or ask idols to bless it? I know St. Paul said to just buy things in the market and not ask. He also said obscure things about having the "freedom" to eat idol-sacrifices, evidently even if you did know it was sacrificed to idols. On the other hand, I believe there are some saints who died rather than eating things sacrificed to idols. This confuses me: why die if you are "free" to eat it? St. Peter was really right (as far as I am concerned) about St. Paul's writings being hard to understand. I'm not knocking St. Paul, but sometimes he seems to talk circles around himself and even contradict what he has already said. I mean this in a simple way--as in, *I* need to understand him, not that *he* is wrong. Any help appreciated.


                ___________________________________________________________________________
                In pre-Nikonian times Russians were pretty strict about those things
                and eating carnivores would fall under "skvernoyadenie", that is,
                eating fobidden things. Same for animals caught by strangling (such as
                hares) and for eating products made of blood (such as blood sausages).
                There is a special prayer rule for those who sinned in this way...

                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
                <matanna@a...> wrote:
                > Recently I gave someone the "Little House" books in which Papa shoots
                > bear and they use bear grease on traps and the furs for jackets. I
                > read a hilarious article by Jean Kerr once about the time that her
                > mother told the children in her family they could each invite a
                > friend for dinner and served what later turned out to be bear meat.
                > And I was wondering, and thought surely someone on this list would
                > know:
                >
                > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
                > wolves that they shot?
                >
                > Did human consume the meat? Did pets?
                >
                > Is there a canon against eating things that could potentially eat
                > people?
                >
                > These are strange questions, but I thought people on this list were
                > more likely to know than anyone else.
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                > In Christ,
                > Matushka Ann Lardas





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              • Nicholas Steblez
                While trichinosis has just about vanished as a threat when eating undercooked pork (thanks to many years of vaccinating swine), it is still quite common in
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                  While trichinosis has just about vanished as a threat when eating undercooked pork (thanks to many years of vaccinating swine), it is still quite common in bear meat, and all precautions should be observed. Also, bear meat has been known to bring about attacks of gouty arthritis.

                  In Christ,
                  Nicholas



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                • Athanasios Jayne
                  ... Dear Matushka, I ve never seen or heard of a canonical prohibition of this kind. Since Christ said that we ought to receive with thanksgiving whatever is
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
                    <matanna@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Is there a canon against eating things that could potentially eat
                    > people?

                    Dear Matushka,

                    I've never seen or heard of a canonical prohibition of this kind.

                    Since Christ said that we ought to receive with thanksgiving
                    whatever is set before us, and that it is what comes *out*
                    of a man, that is, from his heart, that can make a man
                    unclean, and not what goes into him, it seems to me that
                    there is no creature that a Christian is absolutely forbidden
                    to eat, including carnivors.

                    That being said, there may well be potential health risks
                    associated with eating some carnivors that we may want to
                    avoid if we can. But keep in mind, for example, that many
                    fish are carnivors, because they eat other fish. Likewise
                    many birds are carnivors--or at least omnivors.

                    Though Christians may be permitted to eat any creature with
                    thanksgiving, the exception to this would be the bodies of
                    our fellow human beings, which are holy, and which await the
                    resurrection, and so to eat them would be a sacrilege, even
                    as cremation (to a much lesser extent of course) is a form of
                    sacriledge (in my opinion).

                    Athanasios.
                  • (matushka) Ann Lardas
                    Father, bless! Thank you! I suspected that it was as you ve written -- that the consumption of bear meat happens, that it probably wasn t encouraged, that it
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                      Father, bless!

                      Thank you!

                      I suspected that it was as you've written -- that the consumption of
                      bear meat happens, that it probably wasn't encouraged, that it
                      wouldn't be pleasant.

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexey Chumakov"
                      <achumakov@h...> wrote:
                      > I've tried bear meat once, in early 80's, it was pretty terrible and
                      > did not feel right, almost like eating human flesh.
                      > Bears were mostly hunted for fur in Russia, and not for meat. Fat
                      was
                      > also supposed to have some kind of medicinal value, but, generally,
                      it
                      > was the game that nobility played.
                      > Same for wolves, no one in his sane mind would eat a wolf, it was
                      only
                      > hunted for fur and as a trophee.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, variorum@a... wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In a message dated 10/4/05 4:24:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > > matanna@a... writes:
                      > >
                      > > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears
                      and
                      > > wolves that they shot?
                      > >
                      > > But why the question on an Orthodox list?
                      > > Guten Apetit...
                      > > Vladimir


                      Where else would so many people know what the norm was in Russia?
                      Helps me to put American practice in context.

                      Thank you for your help in this!
                      In Christ,
                      Matushka Ann Lardas
                    • Athanasios Jayne
                      The liver of a bear (at least, the polar bear) contains so much Vitamin A, that it is toxic to anyone who eats too much of it, and can actually result in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                        The liver of a bear (at least, the polar bear)
                        contains so much Vitamin A, that it is toxic
                        to anyone who eats too much of it, and can
                        actually result in death.

                        So, skip the liver.

                        Athanasios.

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Steblez
                        <crocodile1953@y...> wrote:
                        > While trichinosis has just about vanished as a threat when eating
                        undercooked pork (thanks to many years of vaccinating swine), it is
                        still quite common in bear meat, and all precautions should be
                        observed. Also, bear meat has been known to bring about attacks of
                        gouty arthritis.
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        > Nicholas
                      • aprmih
                        ... as ... sausages). ... I think I understand the restriction about blood-based products, but what is the explanation for the others? (just curious...) Alex
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexey Chumakov"
                          <achumakov@h...> wrote:
                          > In pre-Nikonian times Russians were pretty strict about those things
                          > and eating carnivores would fall under "skvernoyadenie", that is,
                          > eating fobidden things. Same for animals caught by strangling (such
                          as
                          > hares) and for eating products made of blood (such as blood
                          sausages).
                          > There is a special prayer rule for those who sinned in this way...
                          >


                          I think I understand the restriction about blood-based products, but
                          what is the explanation for the others? (just curious...)

                          Alex
                        • rebekah_moser
                          ... Weeellllll, if bears eat people, and then people eat bears, could that be considered people eating people in an indirect sort of way? Rebekah Moser
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
                            <athanasiosj@j...> wrote:
                            > Though Christians may be permitted to eat any creature with
                            > thanksgiving, the exception to this would be the bodies of
                            > our fellow human beings

                            Weeellllll, if bears eat people, and then people eat bears, could that
                            be considered people eating people in an indirect sort of way?

                            Rebekah Moser
                          • CW
                            Dimitra, Au jus usually does not contain blood but the juices from the meat much the same as broth. I cook a lot of Asian-Indian food and buy items from
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                              Dimitra,
                              Au jus usually does not contain blood but the juices from the meat much the same as broth. I cook a lot of Asian-Indian food and buy items from several local Indian groceries. One time I entered one and saw some chilies, I said I wanted to buy them but the owner said she could not sell them as she had already offered them to the gods. One store I buy from is owned my a Muslim he also has Hindu items in the store but they are not set aside for religious purposes. He sells a lot of them to people who use them to decorate their homes. I doubt any Hindu would sell something "sacred" to someone who would not value it as "sacred."

                              Jéan-Claude
                              Columbus, Ohio
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: DDD
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:59 AM
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: off topic? Strange question re: bears.


                              Bless, Fathers,

                              Ever since I re-read the part in the Acts about the Gentile converts not having to obey the Law of Moses, except for strangled animals and blood, I feel a little funny with steak au jus--isn't that blood, and if so, are we allowed to eat it?
                              On the other hand, why would we have to keep just that and not all the rest of the Mosaic law? And if we really keep that, wouldn't we have to "kosher" our meat by washing and salting the daylights out of it just the same way the Jews do?
                              Finally, how did this restriction about carnivore foods (and strangled and blood) being "skverdoedenie" eventually get dropped (or ignored)?

                              Thank you for any answers and asking your prayers,
                              Dimitra

                              P.S. The other parts of the Apostolic prohibition are immorality and things sacrificed to idols. I used to think the latter was moot, but there's a neat Indian store in Cambridge that has sesame chikki--a nice fasting sweet--as well as lots of other vegetarian food. They are obviously Hindu and have all sorts of idols around. Who knows whether they offer their stuff to idols or ask idols to bless it? I know St. Paul said to just buy things in the market and not ask. He also said obscure things about having the "freedom" to eat idol-sacrifices, evidently even if you did know it was sacrificed to idols. On the other hand, I believe there are some saints who died rather than eating things sacrificed to idols. This confuses me: why die if you are "free" to eat it? St. Peter was really right (as far as I am concerned) about St. Paul's writings being hard to understand. I'm not knocking St. Paul, but sometimes he seems to talk circles around himself and even contradict what he has already said. I mean this in a simple way--as in, *I* need to understand him, not that *he* is wrong. Any help appreciated.


                              ___________________________________________________________________________
                              In pre-Nikonian times Russians were pretty strict about those things
                              and eating carnivores would fall under "skvernoyadenie", that is,
                              eating fobidden things. Same for animals caught by strangling (such as
                              hares) and for eating products made of blood (such as blood sausages).
                              There is a special prayer rule for those who sinned in this way...

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
                              <matanna@a...> wrote:
                              > Recently I gave someone the "Little House" books in which Papa shoots
                              > bear and they use bear grease on traps and the furs for jackets. I
                              > read a hilarious article by Jean Kerr once about the time that her
                              > mother told the children in her family they could each invite a
                              > friend for dinner and served what later turned out to be bear meat.
                              > And I was wondering, and thought surely someone on this list would
                              > know:
                              >
                              > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
                              > wolves that they shot?
                              >
                              > Did human consume the meat? Did pets?
                              >
                              > Is there a canon against eating things that could potentially eat
                              > people?
                              >
                              > These are strange questions, but I thought people on this list were
                              > more likely to know than anyone else.
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                              >
                              > In Christ,
                              > Matushka Ann Lardas





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                            • cantor71
                              See this recent news item entitled French hunters sick after eating Quebec bear (Canadian Press):
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                                See this recent news item entitled
                                French hunters sick after eating Quebec bear
                                (Canadian Press):

                                http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050928/bearmeat_s
                                ickness_20050928/20050928?hub=SciTech



                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
                                <athanasiosj@j...> wrote:
                                >
                                > That being said, there may well be potential health risks
                                > associated with eating some carnivors that we may want to
                                > avoid if we can.
                              • gene703
                                I hunt several times a year and have no problem skinning a dear ar a boar but several years ago on the trip to Alaska I had a chance to take down a bear, had
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                                  I hunt several times a year and have no problem skinning a dear ar a boar but several years ago on the trip to Alaska I had a chance to take down a bear, had it in my sights and could not pull a trigger, instead I was glued to binoculars for the next 20 minuts. I don't understand people who kill for fun, hunting animals like bear or elefant or shark is plain ugly and should be condemned. Real Americans don't shoot what they don't eat. That's conservation, environmental stewarship if you will.

                                  vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:Dear Matushka,

                                  Bears are not that terrible to orthodox.

                                  One was a friend to St Seraphim of Sarov.

                                  http://www.vniief.ru/church/holy.html

                                  Another one rescued Metropolitan Peter while in exile. He was thrown
                                  out of railway a carriage to freeze to death, while Met Sergius was
                                  writing declarations.

                                  http://www.synodinresistance.gr/Theo_en/E3d5023NMPetr.pdf

                                  Holy martyr St Dorymedon was spared by the bear to which he had been
                                  given by his torturers to be eaten up.

                                  http://www.orthodox.net/menaion-september/19-holy-martyrs-trophimus-
                                  sabbatius-and-dorymedon.html

                                  In God,

                                  Vladimir Kozyreff


                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
                                  <matanna@a...> wrote:
                                  > Recently I gave someone the "Little House" books in which Papa
                                  shoots
                                  > bear and they use bear grease on traps and the furs for jackets. I
                                  > read a hilarious article by Jean Kerr once about the time that her
                                  > mother told the children in her family they could each invite a
                                  > friend for dinner and served what later turned out to be bear meat.
                                  > And I was wondering, and thought surely someone on this list would
                                  > know:
                                  >
                                  > What did they do, in pre-revolutionary Russia, with the bears and
                                  > wolves that they shot?
                                  >
                                  > Did human consume the meat? Did pets?
                                  >
                                  > Is there a canon against eating things that could potentially eat
                                  > people?
                                  >
                                  > These are strange questions, but I thought people on this list were
                                  > more likely to know than anyone else.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > In Christ,
                                  > Matushka Ann Lardas






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                                • Athanasios Jayne
                                  ... Thanks for referencing the article. I didn t know they carried this disease (which is usually associated with pigs). I ll have to keep it in mind the next
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "cantor71"
                                    <gskok@r...> wrote:
                                    > See this recent news item...<<

                                    Thanks for referencing the article. I didn't know
                                    they carried this disease (which is usually associated
                                    with pigs).

                                    I'll have to keep it in mind the next time I bag a grizzly.

                                    Athanasios.
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