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Re: "Not for Us to Say"

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  • Athanasios Jayne
    ... readers ... Dear Alex, The teaching I expressed is not, per se, mine. If you actually read my post, you would see that I provided *extensive* quotes
    Message 1 of 42 , Sep 1, 2005
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "aprmih" <aprmih@y...> wrote:
      > I respectfully submit to any clergyman on this list (and no,
      readers
      > don't count) that if you support Athanasios' views, please post a
      > message expressing this. Otherwise, Athanasios, admit you're wrong
      > and end this pointless thread already!
      >
      > Alex

      Dear Alex,

      The teaching I expressed is not, per se, "mine." If you
      actually read my post, you would see that I provided
      *extensive* quotes which demonstrate that it is, in fact,
      the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Hieromartyr
      St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Theodore the Studite, and
      Archimandrite Dr. Justin Popovich of Blessed Memory
      (who says it is the teaching of the *Orthodox Church*).
      Doubtless, many other sources could readily be provided which
      say the same, since it is nothing less than Orthodox
      ecclesiology as regards the sacraments of heretics and
      schismatics. If anyone wishes to disagree, his disagreement
      is *not* with me, but rather with the renowned Orthodox
      luminaries I have cited, who possess great theological
      credence and authority. And if they are right, then those
      who disagree, disagree not with them, but with the Church.
      And those who disagree with the Church, disagree with God.
      I would like to see someone actually *engage* the sources
      I have provided, rather than simply pass over them in
      deafening silence, or attempt to dismiss their clear
      testimony through ad hominem attacks directed against
      myself (which is all that has happened so far). I stand with
      St. Cyprian, St. Theodore, and Fr. Justin. If they were wrong,
      then I am wrong. But so far, no one has dared to say they were
      wrong, nor has anyone given any Patristic evidence to the
      contrary. We must not trust our unsupported opinions or our
      emotions, which can deceive us. We must submit our our
      judgment to that of the Church, which is true and sure,
      and which can be found in the writings of the divine
      Scriptures, the Saints, and Holy Fathers--like the stars
      of heaven which guide those on earth.

      Athanasios.
    • Athanasios Jayne
      ... readers ... Dear Alex, The teaching I expressed is not, per se, mine. If you actually read my post, you would see that I provided *extensive* quotes
      Message 42 of 42 , Sep 1, 2005
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "aprmih" <aprmih@y...> wrote:
        > I respectfully submit to any clergyman on this list (and no,
        readers
        > don't count) that if you support Athanasios' views, please post a
        > message expressing this. Otherwise, Athanasios, admit you're wrong
        > and end this pointless thread already!
        >
        > Alex

        Dear Alex,

        The teaching I expressed is not, per se, "mine." If you
        actually read my post, you would see that I provided
        *extensive* quotes which demonstrate that it is, in fact,
        the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Hieromartyr
        St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Theodore the Studite, and
        Archimandrite Dr. Justin Popovich of Blessed Memory
        (who says it is the teaching of the *Orthodox Church*).
        Doubtless, many other sources could readily be provided which
        say the same, since it is nothing less than Orthodox
        ecclesiology as regards the sacraments of heretics and
        schismatics. If anyone wishes to disagree, his disagreement
        is *not* with me, but rather with the renowned Orthodox
        luminaries I have cited, who possess great theological
        credence and authority. And if they are right, then those
        who disagree, disagree not with them, but with the Church.
        And those who disagree with the Church, disagree with God.
        I would like to see someone actually *engage* the sources
        I have provided, rather than simply pass over them in
        deafening silence, or attempt to dismiss their clear
        testimony through ad hominem attacks directed against
        myself (which is all that has happened so far). I stand with
        St. Cyprian, St. Theodore, and Fr. Justin. If they were wrong,
        then I am wrong. But so far, no one has dared to say they were
        wrong, nor has anyone given any Patristic evidence to the
        contrary. We must not trust our unsupported opinions or our
        emotions, which can deceive us. We must submit our our
        judgment to that of the Church, which is true and sure,
        and which can be found in the writings of the divine
        Scriptures, the Saints, and Holy Fathers--like the stars
        of heaven which guide those on earth.

        Athanasios.
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