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Re: The Anathema Debate

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  • frraphver
    Could you please tell us where the below quote of St Nicodemos came from? Thanks. In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
    Message 1 of 42 , Aug 5, 2005
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      Could you please tell us where the below quote of St Nicodemos came from?
      Thanks.
      In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "rstauffer" <rstauffer@y...> wrote:
      >
      > To begin with, however, let me quote from St. Nicodemus of the Holy
      > Mountain's teaching on how anathemas work.
      >
      > He wrote:
      >
      > "We must know that the penalties provided by the canons, such as
      > deposition, excommunication, and anathematization, are imposed in
      > the third person according to grammatical usage, there being no
      > imperative available. In such cases in order to express a command,
      > the second person would be necessary. I will explain the matter
      > better. The canons COMMAND the council of living bishops to depose
      > the priests, or to excommunicate them, or to ANATHEMATIZE laymen who
      > violate the canons. Yet, if the council does not actually effect the
      > deposition of the priests, or the excommunication, or the
      > anathematization of the laymen, THEY ARE NEITHER ACTUALLY deposed,
      > nor excommunicated, NOR ANATHEMATIZED.
      >
      > "They are, however, liable to stand judicial trial -- here, with
      > regard to deposition, excommunication, and anathematization, but
      > there with regard to divine vengeance. Just as when a king commands
      > his slave to whip another who did something that offended him, if
      > the slave in question fails to execute the king's command, he will
      > nevertheless be liable to trial for the whipping.
      >
      > "So, those silly men make a great mistake who say that at the
      > present time all those in holy orders who have been ordained
      > contrary to the canons are actually deposed from office. It is an
      > inquisitional tongue that foolishly twaddles thus without
      > understanding that the COMMAND of the canons, without the practical
      > activity of the second person, or, more plainly speaking, of the
      > council, REMAINS UNEXECUTED, since it does not act of itself and by
      > itself immediately and before judgment.
      >
      > "The Apostles themselves explain themselves in their c. XLVI
      > unmistakenly, since they do not say that any bishop or presbyter who
      > accepts a baptism performed by heretics is ALREADY and AT ONCE
      > deposed, but rather they COMMAND that he be deposed, or, at any
      > rate, that he stand trial, and if it be proven that he did so,
      > then 'we command that he be stripped of holy orders,' they say, 'by
      > YOUR DECISION.'"
      >
      >
    • Athanasios Jayne
      ... readers ... Dear Alex, The teaching I expressed is not, per se, mine. If you actually read my post, you would see that I provided *extensive* quotes
      Message 42 of 42 , Sep 1, 2005
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "aprmih" <aprmih@y...> wrote:
        > I respectfully submit to any clergyman on this list (and no,
        readers
        > don't count) that if you support Athanasios' views, please post a
        > message expressing this. Otherwise, Athanasios, admit you're wrong
        > and end this pointless thread already!
        >
        > Alex

        Dear Alex,

        The teaching I expressed is not, per se, "mine." If you
        actually read my post, you would see that I provided
        *extensive* quotes which demonstrate that it is, in fact,
        the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Hieromartyr
        St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Theodore the Studite, and
        Archimandrite Dr. Justin Popovich of Blessed Memory
        (who says it is the teaching of the *Orthodox Church*).
        Doubtless, many other sources could readily be provided which
        say the same, since it is nothing less than Orthodox
        ecclesiology as regards the sacraments of heretics and
        schismatics. If anyone wishes to disagree, his disagreement
        is *not* with me, but rather with the renowned Orthodox
        luminaries I have cited, who possess great theological
        credence and authority. And if they are right, then those
        who disagree, disagree not with them, but with the Church.
        And those who disagree with the Church, disagree with God.
        I would like to see someone actually *engage* the sources
        I have provided, rather than simply pass over them in
        deafening silence, or attempt to dismiss their clear
        testimony through ad hominem attacks directed against
        myself (which is all that has happened so far). I stand with
        St. Cyprian, St. Theodore, and Fr. Justin. If they were wrong,
        then I am wrong. But so far, no one has dared to say they were
        wrong, nor has anyone given any Patristic evidence to the
        contrary. We must not trust our unsupported opinions or our
        emotions, which can deceive us. We must submit our our
        judgment to that of the Church, which is true and sure,
        and which can be found in the writings of the divine
        Scriptures, the Saints, and Holy Fathers--like the stars
        of heaven which guide those on earth.

        Athanasios.
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