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Re: Antioch in Communion with Monophysites?!

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  • Archpriest David Moser
    ... So Athanasius, why do you only emphasize the portion that agrees with your strict interpretation and ignore that which allows for a more lenient practice.
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@j...> wrote:
      > Whether your teaching
      > and your name are pronounced as being under anathema
      > or not, YOU ALREADY FALL UNDER IT WHEN YOUR OPINIONS
      > ARE OPPOSED TO THOSE OF THE CHURCH, and when you persist
      > in them. Fearful is the anathema. Leave off your evil
      > opinions. Amen."
      >
      > --St. Theophan the Recluse, "What is an Anathema?"
      > translated from the Russian text published by
      > Pravoslavnaya Rus, #4, 1974, (emphasis mine--AJ).

      So Athanasius, why do you only emphasize the portion that agrees with your
      strict interpretation and ignore that which allows for a more lenient practice.
      "...and when you persist in them." is just as important as the rest of the
      sentence! The other portion that you emphasized says nothing about "anathema"
      only about the result of an "incorrect" opinion - which like any time we sin
      (that is act contrary to the image and likeness of God) separates us from the
      Church but which like every sin can be corrected by repentance. That little bit
      you ignored "..when you persist..." is key to the whole quote of St Theophan.
      You might do well to stop reading theology and begin practicing it. "Go and
      learn what this means - I desire mercy, not sacrifice"

      V Rev David Moser
      St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
      Boise, ID
      homilies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/
      ask Fr David: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frd_private/
    • Athanasios Jayne
      ... --St. Theophan the Recluse. ... lawful Church hierarchy actually imposes judgment on them.
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 3, 2005
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        > "Whether your teaching
        > and your name are pronounced as being under anathema
        > or not, YOU ALREADY FALL UNDER IT WHEN YOUR OPINIONS
        > ARE OPPOSED TO THOSE OF THE CHURCH, and when you persist
        > in them."

        --St. Theophan the Recluse.

        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:

        > 1) No one "already falls under anathema", unless the
        lawful Church hierarchy actually imposes judgment on them.<

        "Anathema means anything that has been separated from God
        and the Church of the Christians and has been dedicated to
        the devil. It is of great importance that one understand
        that it is not the Church that separates someone from God
        by some official act, it is not the hierarchs who make him
        anathema, nor yet is it God Who banishes a man from Him;
        it is man himself who makes himself anathema, who dismisses
        the Grace of God and the Gift of the Holy Spirit from within
        himself and flees far from God. It is only after this that
        the Church steps in to certify and to proclaim this fact,
        with the purpose of protecting first the Divine Gifts from
        any contact with the blasphemous, and, second, the faithful
        from pollution."

        --Dr. Alexander Kalomiros.

        "He that accepts an innovation reproaches with deficiency
        the preached Catholic Faith. But that Faith has long ago
        been sealed in completeness not to admit of diminution or
        increase or any change whatsoever; and he who dares to
        do or think or advise such a thing has already denied the
        Faith of Christ, has already of his own accord been struck
        with an eternal anathema for blaspheming the Holy Spirit
        as not having spoken fully in the Scriptures and through
        the Ecumenical Councils."

        --Encyclical of Gregory VI, Patriarch of Constantinople.
      • Athanasios Jayne
        For when the Lord says: he is judged already, and when the Apostle anathematizes even angels, if they teach anything different from what we have preached,
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 5, 2005
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          "For when the Lord says: "he is judged already,"
          and when the Apostle anathematizes even angels,
          if they teach anything different from what we
          have preached, how can even those who dare all
          things, presume to say that these words refer
          only to the living? Or are they ignorant, or
          is it not rather that they feign to be ignorant,
          that the judgment of anathema is nothing else
          than that of separation from God? FOR THE
          IMPIOUS PERSON, ALTHOUGH HE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN
          VERBALLY ANATHEMATIZED BY ANYONE, NEVERTHELESS
          HE REALLY IS ANATHEMATIZED, HAVING SEPARATED
          HIMSELF FROM THE TRUE LIFE BY HIS IMPIETY."

          --The Decree of the Holy Fifth Ecumenical
          Council.

          "But if anyone at all shall not observe and
          embrace the aforesaid decrees, and teach and
          preach in accordance therewith, but shall
          attempt to set himself in opposition thereto,
          let him be anathema, according to the decree
          already promulgated by the approved holy and
          blessed Fathers, and let him be cast out and
          stricken off as an alien from the number of
          Christians."

          --Canon I of the Holy Sixth Ecumenical
          Council.
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: The above means the same thing as saying that a sinner, while unrepenting, separates himself from the True Life. However, no one else on earth can be
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 5, 2005
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            Athanasios Jayne wrote:

            > FOR THE
            > IMPIOUS PERSON, ALTHOUGH HE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN
            > VERBALLY ANATHEMATIZED BY ANYONE, NEVERTHELESS
            > HE REALLY IS ANATHEMATIZED, HAVING SEPARATED
            > HIMSELF FROM THE TRUE LIFE BY HIS IMPIETY."
            >
            > --The Decree of the Holy Fifth Ecumenical
            > Council.

            JRS: The above means the same thing as saying that a sinner, while unrepenting, separates
            himself from the True Life.

            However, no one else on earth can be expected to know this for certain. The separation is
            internal, spiritual, and not a matter of Canon Law.

            Deacons, priests, and bishops are all sinners, in varying degrees. But despite that, unless
            they are suspended or defrocked by the Church, their ministrations remain genuine, and the
            faithful are not cut off from the True Life.

            > "But if anyone at all shall not observe and
            > embrace the aforesaid decrees, and teach and
            > preach in accordance therewith, but shall
            > attempt to set himself in opposition thereto,
            > let him be anathema, according to the decree
            > already promulgated by the approved holy and
            > blessed Fathers, and let him be cast out and
            > stricken off as an alien from the number of
            > Christians."
            >
            > --Canon I of the Holy Sixth Ecumenical
            > Council.

            JRS: Note the words: "Let him be anathema", and "let him be cast out"; not: "He is
            automatically anathematized and automatically cast out, by the living action of this Canon".

            Thus it remains up to the hierarchy to decide how to deal with each case, or to take no action
            at all.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
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