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  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    From the AP Newswire: Russian Orthodoxy disavows Soviet-era document in step toward reunion with foreign church MOSCOW (AP) - The Russian Orthodox Church has
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 30, 2005
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      From the AP Newswire:



      Russian Orthodoxy disavows Soviet-era document in step toward reunion with
      foreign church

      MOSCOW (AP) - The Russian Orthodox Church has disavowed a Soviet-era
      declaration of loyalty to the Communist government, a step that could help
      bring reunion with an emigre church that has been separate since 1920.

      The New York-based Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia severed contacts
      with the Moscow-based church after Patriarch Sergiy issued the loyalty
      declaration in 1927.

      The Moscow Patriarchate has said Sergiy did this to save the church from
      ruin, but a new document on its Web site says the declaration was among
      documents that "do not express the true voice of the Church of Christ (and)
      are deemed no longer valid."

      The Web site presented several documents drafted by delegates of the Moscow
      Patriarchate and the foreign church and approved by their respective synods.

      The two churches set up working groups on reunification issues after a 2003
      visit to Russia by three archbishops of the foreign church and a 2004 visit
      by its head, Metropolitan Laurus.

      The documents went further than ever before toward apology by the Moscow
      Patriarchate for Soviet-era compromises with the state.

      "Some clergymen and laypersons, trampling upon divine truth, facilitated
      the persecutors in their actions directed toward the destruction of the
      church," said a posted document. "Such actions cannot under any
      circumstances be permitted and justified: they deserve all condemnation."


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father Alexander, bless. If they believe what they say, the MP hierarchs should immediately retire. The supposedly admirable text says: do not express
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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        Dear Father Alexander, bless.

        If they believe what they say, the MP hierarchs should immediately
        retire.

        The supposedly admirable text says:

        "do not express the true voice of the Church of Christ (and) are
        deemed no longer valid".

        instead of saying:

        · "has never expressed the voice of the true Church of Christ,
        · and has never been valid

        As a consequence,

        · it invalidates the supposed canonicity of the supposed Church
        that was organised according to that declaration,
        · invalidates the supposed legitimacy of all the supposed
        hierarchs that were ever appointed in the framework of that false
        church
        · invalidates the supposed canonicity of the presently
        supposed "Patriarcate of Moscow"

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
        <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
        > From the AP Newswire:
        >
        >
        >
        > Russian Orthodoxy disavows Soviet-era document in step toward
        reunion with
        > foreign church
        >
        > MOSCOW (AP) - The Russian Orthodox Church has disavowed a Soviet-
        era
        > declaration of loyalty to the Communist government, a step that
        could help
        > bring reunion with an emigre church that has been separate since
        1920.
        >
        > The New York-based Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia severed
        contacts
        > with the Moscow-based church after Patriarch Sergiy issued the
        loyalty
        > declaration in 1927.
        >
        > The Moscow Patriarchate has said Sergiy did this to save the church
        from
        > ruin, but a new document on its Web site says the declaration was
        among
        > documents that "do not express the true voice of the Church of
        Christ (and)
        > are deemed no longer valid."
        >
        > The Web site presented several documents drafted by delegates of
        the Moscow
        > Patriarchate and the foreign church and approved by their
        respective synods.
        >
        > The two churches set up working groups on reunification issues
        after a 2003
        > visit to Russia by three archbishops of the foreign church and a
        2004 visit
        > by its head, Metropolitan Laurus.
        >
        > The documents went further than ever before toward apology by the
        Moscow
        > Patriarchate for Soviet-era compromises with the state.
        >
        > "Some clergymen and laypersons, trampling upon divine truth,
        facilitated
        > the persecutors in their actions directed toward the destruction of
        the
        > church," said a posted document. "Such actions cannot under any
        > circumstances be permitted and justified: they deserve all
        condemnation."
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate was not organized according to the declaration of Metropolitan Sergius. Metropolitan Sergius was the administrator of the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

          > As a consequence,
          >
          > · it invalidates the supposed canonicity of the supposed Church
          > that was organised according to that declaration,

          JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate was not "organized according to the declaration" of
          Metropolitan Sergius.

          Metropolitan Sergius was the administrator of the Moscow Patriarchate, which already
          existed.

          He issued the declaration, under obvious pressure from the Bolsheviks, but no "new church"
          was organized on the basis of that document.

          > · invalidates the supposed legitimacy of all the supposed
          > hierarchs that were ever appointed in the framework of that false
          > church

          JRS: However, if you say that any statement or decision by the current Moscow Patriarchate
          "invalidates" anything at all, you are granting a certain recognition to the Patriarchate, as
          having some sort of a lawful voice.

          If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever, it could hardly invalidate anything: not
          even the statements of Metropolitan Sergius.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Father John, bless. You write: The Moscow Patriarchate was not organized according to the declaration of Metropolitan Sergius. Metropolitan Sergius was
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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            Dear Father John, bless.

            You write: "The Moscow Patriarchate was not "organized according to
            the declaration" of Metropolitan Sergius. Metropolitan Sergius was
            the administrator of the Moscow Patriarchate, which already existed".

            The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least disputed.
            The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist. Later, a
            false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how else?)
            to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our mother
            Church, not the present, false MP.

            You write : "He issued the declaration, under obvious pressure from
            the Bolsheviks, but no "new church" was organized on the basis of
            that document".

            A new "church" was indeed organised on order of Stalin, as the
            declaration itself was written on order of Stalin. Both were part of
            the same strategy, which consisted in building a false Church to
            fight God (Antichrist, against Christ, instead of Christ).

            You write: "However, if you say that any statement or decision by the
            current Moscow Patriarchate "invalidates" anything at all, you are
            granting a certain recognition to the Patriarchate, as having some
            sort of a lawful voice".

            What invalidates the "MP" is the falsehood of the 1917 declaration
            and the "MP" subordination to Stalin, not its declaring anything now.
            Acknowledging the declaration's falsehood is acknowledging the "MP"
            falsehood. That is why the "MP" does not acknowledge the declaration
            as false, but just as not valid "any longer" (implying that it was
            once valid).

            The "MP"'s existence was conditioned by the declaration. The "MP" is
            what the declaration saved, not the true Church. The true Church
            cannot be saved by lies, but a false MP can perfectly well.

            Acknowledging the falsehood of the declaration is acknowledging the
            creation of the "MP" by Stalin as a cause for it being false as well.

            You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever, it
            could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
            Metropolitan Sergius".

            The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but to
            acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from public life
            and to abandon his false pretences. He would be well inspired to
            retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
            <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
            > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
            >
            > > As a consequence,
            > >
            > > · it invalidates the supposed canonicity of the supposed Church
            > > that was organised according to that declaration,
            >
            > JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate was not "organized according to the
            declaration" of
            > Metropolitan Sergius.
            >
            > Metropolitan Sergius was the administrator of the Moscow
            Patriarchate, which already
            > existed.
            >
            > He issued the declaration, under obvious pressure from the
            Bolsheviks, but no "new church"
            > was organized on the basis of that document.
            >
            > > · invalidates the supposed legitimacy of all the supposed
            > > hierarchs that were ever appointed in the framework of that false
            > > church
            >
            > JRS: However, if you say that any statement or decision by the
            current Moscow Patriarchate
            > "invalidates" anything at all, you are granting a certain
            recognition to the Patriarchate, as
            > having some sort of a lawful voice.
            >
            > If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever, it could
            hardly invalidate anything: not
            > even the statements of Metropolitan Sergius.
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
          • gene703
            with your permission, gentlemen, I will let Metropolita Philret pipe in on this discussion Exerpts from St.Metr.Philaret s letter ...... What then is the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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              with your permission, gentlemen, I will let Metropolita Philret pipe in on this discussion


              Exerpts from St.Metr.Philaret's letter ...... What then is the Soviet church? Archimandrite Constantine has often and insistently stated that the most horrible thing that the God-hating regime has done in Russia is the creation of the Soviet Church, which the Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true Church, having driven the genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into the concentration camps.

              This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His Holiness Patriarch Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor anathematized the Communists and all their collaborators. This dread anathema has not been lifted till this day and remains in force, since it can be lifted only by a similar All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme ecclesiastical authority.



              vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
              Dear Father John, bless.

              You write: "The Moscow Patriarchate was not "organized according to
              the declaration" of Metropolitan Sergius. Metropolitan Sergius was
              the administrator of the Moscow Patriarchate, which already existed".

              The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least disputed.
              The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist. Later, a
              false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how else?)
              to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our mother
              Church, not the present, false MP.

              You write : "He issued the declaration, under obvious pressure from
              the Bolsheviks, but no "new church" was organized on the basis of
              that document".

              A new "church" was indeed organised on order of Stalin, as the
              declaration itself was written on order of Stalin. Both were part of
              the same strategy, which consisted in building a false Church to
              fight God (Antichrist, against Christ, instead of Christ).

              You write: "However, if you say that any statement or decision by the
              current Moscow Patriarchate "invalidates" anything at all, you are
              granting a certain recognition to the Patriarchate, as having some
              sort of a lawful voice".

              What invalidates the "MP" is the falsehood of the 1917 declaration
              and the "MP" subordination to Stalin, not its declaring anything now.
              Acknowledging the declaration's falsehood is acknowledging the "MP"
              falsehood. That is why the "MP" does not acknowledge the declaration
              as false, but just as not valid "any longer" (implying that it was
              once valid).

              The "MP"'s existence was conditioned by the declaration. The "MP" is
              what the declaration saved, not the true Church. The true Church
              cannot be saved by lies, but a false MP can perfectly well.

              Acknowledging the falsehood of the declaration is acknowledging the
              creation of the "MP" by Stalin as a cause for it being false as well.

              You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever, it
              could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
              Metropolitan Sergius".

              The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but to
              acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from public life
              and to abandon his false pretences. He would be well inspired to
              retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff




              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
              <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
              > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
              >
              > > As a consequence,
              > >
              > > · it invalidates the supposed canonicity of the supposed Church
              > > that was organised according to that declaration,
              >
              > JRS: The Moscow Patriarchate was not "organized according to the
              declaration" of
              > Metropolitan Sergius.
              >
              > Metropolitan Sergius was the administrator of the Moscow
              Patriarchate, which already
              > existed.
              >
              > He issued the declaration, under obvious pressure from the
              Bolsheviks, but no "new church"
              > was organized on the basis of that document.
              >
              > > · invalidates the supposed legitimacy of all the supposed
              > > hierarchs that were ever appointed in the framework of that false
              > > church
              >
              > JRS: However, if you say that any statement or decision by the
              current Moscow Patriarchate
              > "invalidates" anything at all, you are granting a certain
              recognition to the Patriarchate, as
              > having some sort of a lawful voice.
              >
              > If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever, it could
              hardly invalidate anything: not
              > even the statements of Metropolitan Sergius.
              >
              > In Christ
              > Fr. John R. Shaw






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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
              ... A might schizophrenic Metropolitan Philaret you are presenting here, if these quotes are actually written by him. Just because a letter has been
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                Gene073 wrote:



                >with your permission, gentlemen, I will let Metropolita Philret pipe in on
                >this discussion
                >
                >
                >Exerpts from St.Metr.Philaret's letter ...... What then is the Soviet
                >church? Archimandrite Constantine has often and insistently stated that
                >the most horrible thing that the God-hating regime has done in Russia is
                >the creation of the Soviet Church, which the Bolsheviks presented to the
                >people as the true Church, having driven the genuine Orthodox Church into
                >the catacombs or into the concentration camps.
                >
                >This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His Holiness Patriarch
                >Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor anathematized the Communists and
                >all their collaborators. This dread anathema has not been lifted till this
                >day and remains in force, since it can be lifted only by a similar
                >All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme ecclesiastical authority.



                A might schizophrenic Metropolitan Philaret you are presenting here, if
                these quotes are actually written by him. Just because a letter has been
                circulating on the internet for quite some time does not mean that it is
                authentic.

                Do you have proof positive that this was actually written by Metropolitan
                Philaret?

                Now, assuming for a moment that this was actually written by him--

                this would mean that Metropolitan Philaret, who was a clergyman of the
                Moscow Patriarchate for 17 years (1945-1962), during that entire time was a
                clergyman of a "twice-anathematized pseudo-church." Since a pseudo-church
                cannot have grace or true mysteries, this would mean that all of the
                liturgies and other mysteries that he served during these 17 years were
                graceless and invalid.

                Do you think that he believed that?

                At the time of his election to be the First Hierarch, Metropolitan
                Philaret, in his acceptance speech, expressed his awe that the bishops were
                able to choose him, notwithstanding the fact that he had just recently left
                the Moscow Patriarchate, which he called simple an "unfortunate
                jurisdiction"--not a pseudo church.

                Now--contrast the statements quoted above (which are purportedly from a
                private letter to an individual priest and so, not meant for publication,
                and devoid of any official status)--with the Statements of Metropolitan
                Philaret that were from official Epistles.

                In one, he states that the Moscow Patriarchate is one of the three parts of
                the Russian Church, in addition to the Catacomb Church and the Church
                Abroad. In this official document he does not say that the Russian Church
                is composed of two parts: the Catacomb and the Church Abroad, and that
                there exists a third entity--a twice-anathematized pseudo church calling
                itself the Moscow Patriarchate. No he writes: 'in addition to the Catacomb
                Church and the Moscow Patriarchate, which have no communion with one
                another, there exists a third part of the Russian Church--the Russian
                Church Abroad." Clearly he is calling the Moscow Patriarchate one of the
                three parts of the Russian Church.

                Also, in another official Epistle, Metropolitan Philaret dedicated the
                entire Epistle to a condemnation of a recent ruling by the Soviet
                government forbidding children to attend Church. In this Epistle, he speaks
                about how terrible it is for the Soviet government to deny children the
                opportunity to go to Church and receive the Holy Mysteries--i.e. Holy
                Communion, as he said "in the few churches permitted to be open." Clearly
                he is not talking about the Catacomb Church, because none of them,
                obviously, were "permitted." He was talking about the churches of the
                Moscow Patriarchate. And what does this mean? It means that Metropolitan
                Philaret considered the churches of the Moscow Patriarchate to have valid
                Mysteries. If he considered the Moscow Patriarchate to be a pseudo
                church--he would have to believe that all of its mysteries were graceless
                and invalid--and so, would have expressed no concern about children being
                denied Holy Communion in such churches.

                Believe me--I was the cell-attendant of Metropolitan Philaret in 1966, just
                a couple of years after his enthronization. Later, when I became Secretary
                of the Eastern American Diocese, I also served as his personal secretary
                (1976-1982) and had countless discussions with him and even "ghost-wrote" a
                number of his epistles. Never in all this time did he express the thought
                that the Moscow Patriarchate was graceless.

                During that time he penned a very positive foreward to an article about
                Moscow Patriarchate Elder Tavrion, which was published in "Orthodox Word."
                Not a word of condemnation for Elder Tavrion for being in the Moscow
                Patriarchate, and not a word about the Moscow Patriarchate being a
                pseudo-Church.

                Also, in 1980, when Moscow Patriarchate Priest Dimitry Dudko was arrested,
                Metropolitan Philaret directed that all parishes hold special prayer
                services for him and commemorate him at the prokomedia.

                Would he have done this if he considered Fr. Dimitry to be a member of a
                graceless pseudo-church?


                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • vkozyreff
                Dear List, One of Father Alexander s favorite arguments, when confronted with a text that does not suit him, is to claim that the text is not authentic.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                  Dear List,

                  One of Father Alexander's favorite arguments, when confronted with a
                  text that does not suit him, is to claim that the text is not
                  authentic.

                  Another one is to say: "He could not have written it because I know
                  him". This is what he said about Vl Alypy of Chicago.

                  Father Alexander says that he "ghost wrote" documents for Vl
                  Philaret. So, he must know better than Vl Philaret what the latter
                  thinks.

                  About Vl Vitaly's unwanted letters however, Father Alexander claims
                  that they were not authored by Vl Vitaly, but by a ghost writer (a
                  bad one), so they are not valid.

                  Of course, the sorrowful epistles and the anathema against ecumenism
                  too where authored by a ghost, again a bad one.

                  How many bad ghosts in ROCOR!

                  Sometimes the ghost writer knows better than te author what the
                  latter means. In other cases, the ghost writer is an impostor. All
                  depends on whether you like the document or not.

                  Managing tricky situations: see message 13633:

                  o If a bishop says something you do not like, just say: "It is
                  his personal opinion".

                  o If an anathema by the Church does not suit you, just say: "It
                  was written originally in English" (which means that the alleged
                  official author could not have authored it; moreover, the proposal
                  was allegedly not voted as it should have been, etc).

                  o If a sorrowful epistle does not suit you, just say: "It was
                  not authored by Vl Philaret, but by Vl Gregory.

                  o If Vl Alipy or Vl Vitaly says something you do not like,
                  say: "They took advantage of his condition. He could not have said
                  it, somebody has probably had him sign this text".

                  o If a message from the MP does not suit you, say: "Pat. Alexi
                  did not mean it. The text of the declaration was slipped by a priest
                  who is against the union".

                  The above arguments are clever, but not always convincing.

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                  "But a schism nonetheless occurred. The minority, accepting the
                  declaration, formed a central administration, the so-called "Moscow
                  Patriarchate," which, while being supposedly officially recognized by
                  the authorities, in actual fact received no legal rights whatever
                  from them; for they continued, now without hindrance, a most cruel
                  persecution of the Church.

                  In the words of Joseph, Metropolitan of Petrograd, Metr. Sergy,
                  having proclaimed the declaration, entered upon the path
                  of "monstrous arbitrariness, flattery, and betrayal of the Church to
                  the interests of atheism and the destruction of the Church."

                  (Epistle of Metropolitan Philaret to Orthodox Bishops and All Who
                  Hold Dear the Fate of the Russian Church, 1965)


                  "It is completely absurd for the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
                  Russia, founded in 1920 in accordance with Holy Patriarch Tikhon's
                  Ukase, to consider the Moscow Patriarchate its Mother Church. The
                  Moscow Patriarchate was unlawfully founded an entire seven years
                  later in 1927 after the usurpation of the lawful Church Authority by
                  Metropolitan Sergius, the Deputy to the Locum Tenens to the
                  Patriarchal Throne.

                  At that time he issued the infamous "Declaration" of the Church's
                  complete loyalty to the godless Soviet State.
                  The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has always refused to
                  consider the new church structure created by Metropolitan Sergius to
                  be lawful and canonical; it refuses this to this very day.

                  How can our Church consider the hierarchal structure created by
                  Metropolitan Sergius to be canonical, when a number of the Moscow
                  Patriarchate's best church historians themselves refer to
                  Metropolitan Sergius' authority as "non-canonical" (see the Acts of
                  Holy Patriarch Tikhon published by the Saint Tikhon Theological
                  Institute in Moscow)?

                  For the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia the Mother Church
                  always was and always will be the historical Local Russian Orthodox
                  Church in Her fullness".

                  http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/history/pastoralappe
                  al.html


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                  <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                  > Gene073 wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >with your permission, gentlemen, I will let Metropolita Philret
                  pipe in on
                  > >this discussion
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Exerpts from St.Metr.Philaret's letter ...... What then is the
                  Soviet
                  > >church? Archimandrite Constantine has often and insistently stated
                  that
                  > >the most horrible thing that the God-hating regime has done in
                  Russia is
                  > >the creation of the Soviet Church, which the Bolsheviks presented
                  to the
                  > >people as the true Church, having driven the genuine Orthodox
                  Church into
                  > >the catacombs or into the concentration camps.
                  > >
                  > >This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His Holiness
                  Patriarch
                  > >Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor anathematized the
                  Communists and
                  > >all their collaborators. This dread anathema has not been lifted
                  till this
                  > >day and remains in force, since it can be lifted only by a similar
                  > >All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme ecclesiastical
                  authority.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > A might schizophrenic Metropolitan Philaret you are presenting
                  here, if
                  > these quotes are actually written by him. Just because a letter has
                  been
                  > circulating on the internet for quite some time does not mean that
                  it is
                  > authentic.
                  >
                  > Do you have proof positive that this was actually written by
                  Metropolitan
                  > Philaret?
                  >
                  > Now, assuming for a moment that this was actually written by him--
                  >
                  > this would mean that Metropolitan Philaret, who was a clergyman of
                  the
                  > Moscow Patriarchate for 17 years (1945-1962), during that entire
                  time was a
                  > clergyman of a "twice-anathematized pseudo-church." Since a pseudo-
                  church
                  > cannot have grace or true mysteries, this would mean that all of
                  the
                  > liturgies and other mysteries that he served during these 17 years
                  were
                  > graceless and invalid.
                  >
                  > Do you think that he believed that?
                  >
                  > At the time of his election to be the First Hierarch, Metropolitan
                  > Philaret, in his acceptance speech, expressed his awe that the
                  bishops were
                  > able to choose him, notwithstanding the fact that he had just
                  recently left
                  > the Moscow Patriarchate, which he called simple an "unfortunate
                  > jurisdiction"--not a pseudo church.
                  >
                  > Now--contrast the statements quoted above (which are purportedly
                  from a
                  > private letter to an individual priest and so, not meant for
                  publication,
                  > and devoid of any official status)--with the Statements of
                  Metropolitan
                  > Philaret that were from official Epistles.
                  >
                  > In one, he states that the Moscow Patriarchate is one of the three
                  parts of
                  > the Russian Church, in addition to the Catacomb Church and the
                  Church
                  > Abroad. In this official document he does not say that the Russian
                  Church
                  > is composed of two parts: the Catacomb and the Church Abroad, and
                  that
                  > there exists a third entity--a twice-anathematized pseudo church
                  calling
                  > itself the Moscow Patriarchate. No he writes: 'in addition to the
                  Catacomb
                  > Church and the Moscow Patriarchate, which have no communion with
                  one
                  > another, there exists a third part of the Russian Church--the
                  Russian
                  > Church Abroad." Clearly he is calling the Moscow Patriarchate one
                  of the
                  > three parts of the Russian Church.
                  >
                  > Also, in another official Epistle, Metropolitan Philaret dedicated
                  the
                  > entire Epistle to a condemnation of a recent ruling by the Soviet
                  > government forbidding children to attend Church. In this Epistle,
                  he speaks
                  > about how terrible it is for the Soviet government to deny children
                  the
                  > opportunity to go to Church and receive the Holy Mysteries--i.e.
                  Holy
                  > Communion, as he said "in the few churches permitted to be open."
                  Clearly
                  > he is not talking about the Catacomb Church, because none of them,
                  > obviously, were "permitted." He was talking about the churches of
                  the
                  > Moscow Patriarchate. And what does this mean? It means that
                  Metropolitan
                  > Philaret considered the churches of the Moscow Patriarchate to have
                  valid
                  > Mysteries. If he considered the Moscow Patriarchate to be a pseudo
                  > church--he would have to believe that all of its mysteries were
                  graceless
                  > and invalid--and so, would have expressed no concern about children
                  being
                  > denied Holy Communion in such churches.
                  >
                  > Believe me--I was the cell-attendant of Metropolitan Philaret in
                  1966, just
                  > a couple of years after his enthronization. Later, when I became
                  Secretary
                  > of the Eastern American Diocese, I also served as his personal
                  secretary
                  > (1976-1982) and had countless discussions with him and even "ghost-
                  wrote" a
                  > number of his epistles. Never in all this time did he express the
                  thought
                  > that the Moscow Patriarchate was graceless.
                  >
                  > During that time he penned a very positive foreward to an article
                  about
                  > Moscow Patriarchate Elder Tavrion, which was published in "Orthodox
                  Word."
                  > Not a word of condemnation for Elder Tavrion for being in the
                  Moscow
                  > Patriarchate, and not a word about the Moscow Patriarchate being a
                  > pseudo-Church.
                  >
                  > Also, in 1980, when Moscow Patriarchate Priest Dimitry Dudko was
                  arrested,
                  > Metropolitan Philaret directed that all parishes hold special
                  prayer
                  > services for him and commemorate him at the prokomedia.
                  >
                  > Would he have done this if he considered Fr. Dimitry to be a member
                  of a
                  > graceless pseudo-church?
                  >
                  >
                  > With love in Christ,
                  >
                  > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate? When we speak of apostolic succession , this is what we have
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                    Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                    > The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least disputed.
                    > The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist. Later, a
                    > false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how else?)
                    > to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our mother
                    > Church, not the present, false MP.

                    JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other bishops of the Moscow
                    Patriarchate?

                    When we speak of "apostolic succession", this is what we have in mind: not the declarations
                    or statements made by bishops, but by the fact that they were consecrated by other bishops,
                    and that those bishops in turn were consecrated by others, in a succession going back to the
                    Apostles.

                    > You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever, it
                    > could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
                    > Metropolitan Sergius".
                    >
                    > The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but to
                    > acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from public life
                    > and to abandon his false pretences.

                    JRS: He has not done that, nor has our Church Abroad ever asked him to.

                    However, if, as in your previous posting, you derive any "validation" or "invalidation" from the
                    official statements of the Moscow Patriarchate -- then you do give it some recognition.

                    > He would be well inspired to
                    > retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.

                    JRS: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have swimming pools?

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • boulia_1
                    ... arrested, ... of a ... And not just that. We had a krestniy hod that paraded down 5th Avenue to protest the USSR s persecution of Fr. Dimitry and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                      <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Also, in 1980, when Moscow Patriarchate Priest Dimitry Dudko was
                      arrested,
                      > Metropolitan Philaret directed that all parishes hold special prayer
                      > services for him and commemorate him at the prokomedia.
                      >
                      > Would he have done this if he considered Fr. Dimitry to be a member
                      of a
                      > graceless pseudo-church?
                      >
                      >

                      And not just that. We had a 'krestniy hod' that paraded down 5th Avenue
                      to protest the USSR's persecution of Fr. Dimitry and religion in
                      general. I have photos somewhere...
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Father John, bless. You write: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have swimming pools? Please see below. In God, Vladimir Kozyreff
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                        Dear Father John, bless.

                        You write: "Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do
                        have swimming pools?"

                        Please see below.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                        Ecumenical News International (ENI)

                        Mushrooms and French soup are a feast fit for a patriarch

                        Jonathan Luxmoore
                        Warsaw (ENI). The head of Russia's Orthodox church has revealed that
                        he likes picking mushrooms and eating French onion soup, but he
                        dislikes mobile cell phones, and avoids carrying one himself.

                        "I'm a mushroom collector - it's my real hobby," said Patriarch
                        Alexei II in an interview with Russia's Gazieta daily newspaper,
                        saying he had also developed a yearning for onion soup while staying
                        in Paris four decades ago.

                        In the interview published on 3 May, the 76-year-old patriarch said
                        he preferred his country seat outside Moscow, with its library,
                        running track and swimming pool, to his official city-centre
                        residence. He added that he had been advised by doctors to take "at
                        least 8000 steps daily".

                        http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-0368



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                        >
                        > > The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least
                        disputed.
                        > > The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist. Later, a
                        > > false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how
                        else?)
                        > > to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our mother
                        > > Church, not the present, false MP.
                        >
                        > JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other bishops of
                        the Moscow
                        > Patriarchate?
                        >
                        > When we speak of "apostolic succession", this is what we have in
                        mind: not the declarations
                        > or statements made by bishops, but by the fact that they were
                        consecrated by other bishops,
                        > and that those bishops in turn were consecrated by others, in a
                        succession going back to the
                        > Apostles.
                        >
                        > > You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever,
                        it
                        > > could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
                        > > Metropolitan Sergius".
                        > >
                        > > The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but to
                        > > acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from public
                        life
                        > > and to abandon his false pretences.
                        >
                        > JRS: He has not done that, nor has our Church Abroad ever asked him
                        to.
                        >
                        > However, if, as in your previous posting, you derive
                        any "validation" or "invalidation" from the
                        > official statements of the Moscow Patriarchate -- then you do give
                        it some recognition.
                        >
                        > > He would be well inspired to
                        > > retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.
                        >
                        > JRS: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have
                        swimming pools?
                        >
                        > In Christ
                        > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • vkozyreff
                        Dear Father John, bless. The apostolic succession is not only about being consecrated by a true bishop. In God, Vladimir Kozyreff See message 11492 to be the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                          Dear Father John, bless.

                          The apostolic succession is not only about being consecrated by a
                          true bishop.

                          In God,

                          Vladimir Kozyreff

                          See message 11492

                          "to be the authentic Christian Church connected through "unbroken
                          apostolic succession" to the early first century church and
                          to serve ffectively the tradition of the early church as commanded
                          in 2 Timothy 1:14, "Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you"


                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                          <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                          > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                          >
                          > > The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least
                          disputed.
                          > > The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist. Later, a
                          > > false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how
                          else?)
                          > > to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our mother
                          > > Church, not the present, false MP.
                          >
                          > JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other bishops of
                          the Moscow
                          > Patriarchate?
                          >
                          > When we speak of "apostolic succession", this is what we have in
                          mind: not the declarations
                          > or statements made by bishops, but by the fact that they were
                          consecrated by other bishops,
                          > and that those bishops in turn were consecrated by others, in a
                          succession going back to the
                          > Apostles.
                          >
                          > > You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever,
                          it
                          > > could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
                          > > Metropolitan Sergius".
                          > >
                          > > The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but to
                          > > acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from public
                          life
                          > > and to abandon his false pretences.
                          >
                          > JRS: He has not done that, nor has our Church Abroad ever asked him
                          to.
                          >
                          > However, if, as in your previous posting, you derive
                          any "validation" or "invalidation" from the
                          > official statements of the Moscow Patriarchate -- then you do give
                          it some recognition.
                          >
                          > > He would be well inspired to
                          > > retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.
                          >
                          > JRS: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have
                          swimming pools?
                          >
                          > In Christ
                          > Fr. John R. Shaw
                        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                          Mr. Kozyreff should apologize. In response to a question about whether any monasteries in Russia had swimming pools--he responds: See below. And proceeds to
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 1, 2005
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                            Mr. Kozyreff should apologize.

                            In response to a question about whether any monasteries in Russia had
                            swimming pools--he responds: "See below."

                            And proceeds to cite an article in which **no monastery at all** is mentioned.

                            A normal person would consider this to be a sign of idiocy.

                            With love in Christ,

                            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff





                            At 02:57 PM 7/1/2005, you wrote:
                            >Dear Father John, bless.
                            >
                            >You write: "Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do
                            >have swimming pools?"
                            >
                            >Please see below.
                            >
                            >In God,
                            >
                            >Vladimir Kozyreff
                            >
                            >Ecumenical News International (ENI)
                            >
                            >Mushrooms and French soup are a feast fit for a patriarch
                            >
                            >Jonathan Luxmoore
                            >Warsaw (ENI). The head of Russia's Orthodox church has revealed that
                            >he likes picking mushrooms and eating French onion soup, but he
                            >dislikes mobile cell phones, and avoids carrying one himself.
                            >
                            >"I'm a mushroom collector - it's my real hobby," said Patriarch
                            >Alexei II in an interview with Russia's Gazieta daily newspaper,
                            >saying he had also developed a yearning for onion soup while staying
                            >in Paris four decades ago.
                            >
                            >In the interview published on 3 May, the 76-year-old patriarch said
                            >he preferred his country seat outside Moscow, with its library,
                            >running track and swimming pool, to his official city-centre
                            >residence. He added that he had been advised by doctors to take "at
                            >least 8000 steps daily".
                            >
                            ><http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-0368>http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-0368
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                            ><vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                            > > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least
                            >disputed.
                            > > > The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist. Later, a
                            > > > false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how
                            >else?)
                            > > > to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our mother
                            > > > Church, not the present, false MP.
                            > >
                            > > JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other bishops of
                            >the Moscow
                            > > Patriarchate?
                            > >
                            > > When we speak of "apostolic succession", this is what we have in
                            >mind: not the declarations
                            > > or statements made by bishops, but by the fact that they were
                            >consecrated by other bishops,
                            > > and that those bishops in turn were consecrated by others, in a
                            >succession going back to the
                            > > Apostles.
                            > >
                            > > > You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority whatever,
                            >it
                            > > > could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
                            > > > Metropolitan Sergius".
                            > > >
                            > > > The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but to
                            > > > acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from public
                            >life
                            > > > and to abandon his false pretences.
                            > >
                            > > JRS: He has not done that, nor has our Church Abroad ever asked him
                            >to.
                            > >
                            > > However, if, as in your previous posting, you derive
                            >any "validation" or "invalidation" from the
                            > > official statements of the Moscow Patriarchate -- then you do give
                            >it some recognition.
                            > >
                            > > > He would be well inspired to
                            > > > retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.
                            > >
                            > > JRS: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have
                            >swimming pools?
                            > >
                            > > In Christ
                            > > Fr. John R. Shaw
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Archives located at
                            ><http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod>http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • vkozyreff
                            Dear Father Alexander, bless. I have the impression that I heave displeased you. Please excuse me for being an idiot. I wanted to draw attention at the fact
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 2, 2005
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                              Dear Father Alexander, bless.

                              I have the impression that I heave displeased you. Please excuse me
                              for being an idiot. I wanted to draw attention at the fact that the
                              Moscow "Patriarch" (a monk) has the choice between two residencies
                              and prefers the one with a swimming pool.

                              He had a skyrocketing career under bolshevik dictatorship, travelled
                              abundantly abroad and developed a yearning for onion soup while
                              staying in Paris four decades ago, when priests were suffering hunger
                              in concentration camps. (Met Vitaly is living in relatively more
                              monastery-like conditions, more suitable for a monk).

                              Let me revert to your pet discussions about documents' authorship.
                              Can we agree that while authorship adds to the authenticity of a
                              document, it is the truth of the contents that matters, not who
                              happened to be the author?

                              In your message 14422, you write: "A might schizophrenic Metropolitan
                              Philaret you are presenting here, if these quotes are actually
                              written by him. Just because a letter has been circulating on the
                              internet for quite some time does not mean that it is authentic".

                              To impugn the contents by questioning the author is an ad hominem
                              argument and thus logically invalid. It is like those secular
                              scholars who question the authority of the Bible or the Church
                              Fathers by questioning who their author is. This resembles the
                              typical anti-Christian technical tactic of those lacking discernment
                              needed to perceive the truth.

                              In God,

                              Vladimir Kozyreff

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                              <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                              > Mr. Kozyreff should apologize.
                              >
                              > In response to a question about whether any monasteries in Russia
                              had
                              > swimming pools--he responds: "See below."
                              >
                              > And proceeds to cite an article in which **no monastery at all** is
                              mentioned.
                              >
                              > A normal person would consider this to be a sign of idiocy.
                              >
                              > With love in Christ,
                              >
                              > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > At 02:57 PM 7/1/2005, you wrote:
                              > >Dear Father John, bless.
                              > >
                              > >You write: "Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do
                              > >have swimming pools?"
                              > >
                              > >Please see below.
                              > >
                              > >In God,
                              > >
                              > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                              > >
                              > >Ecumenical News International (ENI)
                              > >
                              > >Mushrooms and French soup are a feast fit for a patriarch
                              > >
                              > >Jonathan Luxmoore
                              > >Warsaw (ENI). The head of Russia's Orthodox church has revealed
                              that
                              > >he likes picking mushrooms and eating French onion soup, but he
                              > >dislikes mobile cell phones, and avoids carrying one himself.
                              > >
                              > >"I'm a mushroom collector - it's my real hobby," said Patriarch
                              > >Alexei II in an interview with Russia's Gazieta daily newspaper,
                              > >saying he had also developed a yearning for onion soup while
                              staying
                              > >in Paris four decades ago.
                              > >
                              > >In the interview published on 3 May, the 76-year-old patriarch said
                              > >he preferred his country seat outside Moscow, with its library,
                              > >running track and swimming pool, to his official city-centre
                              > >residence. He added that he had been advised by doctors to take "at
                              > >least 8000 steps daily".
                              > >
                              > ><http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-
                              0368>http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-0368
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                              > ><vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                              > > > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least
                              > >disputed.
                              > > > > The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist.
                              Later, a
                              > > > > false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically, how
                              > >else?)
                              > > > > to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our
                              mother
                              > > > > Church, not the present, false MP.
                              > > >
                              > > > JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other bishops
                              of
                              > >the Moscow
                              > > > Patriarchate?
                              > > >
                              > > > When we speak of "apostolic succession", this is what we have in
                              > >mind: not the declarations
                              > > > or statements made by bishops, but by the fact that they were
                              > >consecrated by other bishops,
                              > > > and that those bishops in turn were consecrated by others, in a
                              > >succession going back to the
                              > > > Apostles.
                              > > >
                              > > > > You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority
                              whatever,
                              > >it
                              > > > > could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
                              > > > > Metropolitan Sergius".
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but
                              to
                              > > > > acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from
                              public
                              > >life
                              > > > > and to abandon his false pretences.
                              > > >
                              > > > JRS: He has not done that, nor has our Church Abroad ever asked
                              him
                              > >to.
                              > > >
                              > > > However, if, as in your previous posting, you derive
                              > >any "validation" or "invalidation" from the
                              > > > official statements of the Moscow Patriarchate -- then you do
                              give
                              > >it some recognition.
                              > > >
                              > > > > He would be well inspired to
                              > > > > retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.
                              > > >
                              > > > JRS: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have
                              > >swimming pools?
                              > > >
                              > > > In Christ
                              > > > Fr. John R. Shaw
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Archives located at
                              > ><http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-
                              synod>http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > ><?---- LSpots keywords ?> <?---- HM ADS ?>
                              > >
                              > >----------
                              > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              > >
                              > > * Visit your group
                              > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod>orthodox-synod" on
                              the web.
                              > > *
                              > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > *
                              > > <mailto:orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                              subject=Unsubscribe>orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                              > >
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                              > >----------
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                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • goossir
                              Dear Father Alexander, Vladimir never said that there were swimming pools in monasteries. He just said that Pat Alexis should retire in a monastery without
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                Dear Father Alexander,

                                Vladimir never said that there were swimming pools in monasteries.
                                He just said that Pat Alexis should retire in a monastery without
                                swimming pools, meaning by that he should renounce the luxury in
                                which he lives, the very least which is expected from a monk.

                                Just because you do not like what Vladimir writes, you try to
                                turnover the conversation into a false diatribe.
                                What do you mean by normal person? someone stupid enough to swallow
                                all the contradictions offered by the MP?

                                With the love of Christ's Truth,
                                Irina Pahlen

                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                                <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                                > Mr. Kozyreff should apologize.
                                >
                                > In response to a question about whether any monasteries in Russia
                                had
                                > swimming pools--he responds: "See below."
                                >
                                > And proceeds to cite an article in which **no monastery at all**
                                is mentioned.
                                >
                                > A normal person would consider this to be a sign of idiocy.
                                >
                                > With love in Christ,
                                >
                                > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > At 02:57 PM 7/1/2005, you wrote:
                                > >Dear Father John, bless.
                                > >
                                > >You write: "Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do
                                > >have swimming pools?"
                                > >
                                > >Please see below.
                                > >
                                > >In God,
                                > >
                                > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                                > >
                                > >Ecumenical News International (ENI)
                                > >
                                > >Mushrooms and French soup are a feast fit for a patriarch
                                > >
                                > >Jonathan Luxmoore
                                > >Warsaw (ENI). The head of Russia's Orthodox church has revealed
                                that
                                > >he likes picking mushrooms and eating French onion soup, but he
                                > >dislikes mobile cell phones, and avoids carrying one himself.
                                > >
                                > >"I'm a mushroom collector - it's my real hobby," said Patriarch
                                > >Alexei II in an interview with Russia's Gazieta daily newspaper,
                                > >saying he had also developed a yearning for onion soup while
                                staying
                                > >in Paris four decades ago.
                                > >
                                > >In the interview published on 3 May, the 76-year-old patriarch
                                said
                                > >he preferred his country seat outside Moscow, with its library,
                                > >running track and swimming pool, to his official city-centre
                                > >residence. He added that he had been advised by doctors to
                                take "at
                                > >least 8000 steps daily".
                                > >
                                > ><http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-
                                0368>http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-0368
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                                > ><vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                > > > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > The apostolic succession of the present "MP" is at least
                                > >disputed.
                                > > > > The true MP was destroyed by Stalin and ceased to exist.
                                Later, a
                                > > > > false one was created by Stalin, which claimed (logically,
                                how
                                > >else?)
                                > > > > to be the continuation of the true MP. The true MP was our
                                mother
                                > > > > Church, not the present, false MP.
                                > > >
                                > > > JRS: Who consecrated Metropolitan Sergius and the other
                                bishops of
                                > >the Moscow
                                > > > Patriarchate?
                                > > >
                                > > > When we speak of "apostolic succession", this is what we have
                                in
                                > >mind: not the declarations
                                > > > or statements made by bishops, but by the fact that they were
                                > >consecrated by other bishops,
                                > > > and that those bishops in turn were consecrated by others, in a
                                > >succession going back to the
                                > > > Apostles.
                                > > >
                                > > > > You write"If the Patriarchate itself had no authority
                                whatever,
                                > >it
                                > > > > could hardly invalidate anything: not even the statements of
                                > > > > Metropolitan Sergius".
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The "Patriarch" is not requested to exert any authority, but
                                to
                                > > > > acknowledge his not being a patriarch, to disappear from
                                public
                                > >life
                                > > > > and to abandon his false pretences.
                                > > >
                                > > > JRS: He has not done that, nor has our Church Abroad ever
                                asked him
                                > >to.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, if, as in your previous posting, you derive
                                > >any "validation" or "invalidation" from the
                                > > > official statements of the Moscow Patriarchate -- then you do
                                give
                                > >it some recognition.
                                > > >
                                > > > > He would be well inspired to
                                > > > > retire in a monastery without a swimming pool.
                                > > >
                                > > > JRS: Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do have
                                > >swimming pools?
                                > > >
                                > > > In Christ
                                > > > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >Archives located at
                                > ><http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-
                                synod>http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > ><?---- LSpots keywords ?> <?---- HM ADS ?>
                                > >
                                > >----------
                                > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                > >
                                > > * Visit your group
                                > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod>orthodox-synod"
                                on the web.
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                                > > *
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                                subject=Unsubscribe>orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                > >
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                                > >----------
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                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • byakimov@csc.com.au
                                Father Alexander we know you are a robust defender of the post soviet, (sergianist & ecumenist) MP but please refrain form attacking our blessed in memory
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 3, 2005
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                                  Father Alexander we know you are a robust defender of the post soviet,
                                  (sergianist & ecumenist) MP but please refrain form attacking our blessed
                                  in memory metropolitan Philaret with " a might schizophrenic Metropolitan
                                  Philaret.." Dear Vladyka Philaret was a Saint compared to all of us,
                                  including your friends in the post soviet MP. He did not commemorate a
                                  soviet MP patriarch as far as I know , yes technically after WWII we ware
                                  all under the soviet MP but I do not recall (or my friends or parents) that
                                  our priests, at least in that part of China where we lived, ever
                                  commemorating any of the soviet patriarchs while we lived in China before
                                  moving to Australia..,, subjugation of one kind or another is still
                                  subjugation..... we left China well after Archimandrite Philaret... Some of
                                  our ROCA Bishops in China obviously did & they paid dearly on return to the
                                  brutal motherland called the soviet union - a gulag if there ever was
                                  one... brutal to the end & even now has defenders in the RF & now it
                                  seems abroad as well...

                                  With love in our Lord Jesus Christ,

                                  protodeacon Basil from Canberra




                                  "vkozyreff"
                                  <vladimir.kozyreff@ To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  skynet.be> cc:
                                  Sent by: Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Associated Press Reports on Documents
                                  orthodox-synod@yaho
                                  ogroups.com


                                  02/07/2005 09:48 PM
                                  Please respond to
                                  orthodox-synod






                                  Dear Father Alexander, bless.

                                  I have the impression that I heave displeased you. Please excuse me
                                  for being an idiot. I wanted to draw attention at the fact that the
                                  Moscow "Patriarch" (a monk) has the choice between two residencies
                                  and prefers the one with a swimming pool.

                                  He had a skyrocketing career under bolshevik dictatorship, travelled
                                  abundantly abroad and developed a yearning for onion soup while
                                  staying in Paris four decades ago, when priests were suffering hunger
                                  in concentration camps. (Met Vitaly is living in relatively more
                                  monastery-like conditions, more suitable for a monk).

                                  Let me revert to your pet discussions about documents' authorship.
                                  Can we agree that while authorship adds to the authenticity of a
                                  document, it is the truth of the contents that matters, not who
                                  happened to be the author?

                                  In your message 14422, you write: "A might schizophrenic Metropolitan
                                  Philaret you are presenting here, if these quotes are actually
                                  written by him. Just because a letter has been circulating on the
                                  internet for quite some time does not mean that it is authentic".

                                  To impugn the contents by questioning the author is an ad hominem
                                  argument and thus logically invalid. It is like those secular
                                  scholars who question the authority of the Bible or the Church
                                  Fathers by questioning who their author is. This resembles the
                                  typical anti-Christian technical tactic of those lacking discernment
                                  needed to perceive the truth.

                                  In God,

                                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                                  <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                                  > Mr. Kozyreff should apologize.
                                  >
                                  > In response to a question about whether any monasteries in Russia
                                  had
                                  > swimming pools--he responds: "See below."
                                  >
                                  > And proceeds to cite an article in which **no monastery at all** is
                                  mentioned.
                                  >
                                  > A normal person would consider this to be a sign of idiocy.
                                  >
                                  > With love in Christ,
                                  >
                                  > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 02:57 PM 7/1/2005, you wrote:
                                  > >Dear Father John, bless.
                                  > >
                                  > >You write: "Are you saying that any of the Russian monasteries do
                                  > >have swimming pools?"
                                  > >
                                  > >Please see below.
                                  > >
                                  > >In God,
                                  > >
                                  > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                                  > >
                                  > >Ecumenical News International (ENI)
                                  > >
                                  > >Mushrooms and French soup are a feast fit for a patriarch
                                  > >
                                  > >Jonathan Luxmoore
                                  > >Warsaw (ENI). The head of Russia's Orthodox church has revealed
                                  that
                                  > >he likes picking mushrooms and eating French onion soup, but he
                                  > >dislikes mobile cell phones, and avoids carrying one himself.
                                  > >
                                  > >"I'm a mushroom collector - it's my real hobby," said Patriarch
                                  > >Alexei II in an interview with Russia's Gazieta daily newspaper,
                                  > >saying he had also developed a yearning for onion soup while
                                  staying
                                  > >in Paris four decades ago.
                                  > >
                                  > >In the interview published on 3 May, the 76-year-old patriarch said
                                  > >he preferred his country seat outside Moscow, with its library,
                                  > >running track and swimming pool, to his official city-centre
                                  > >residence. He added that he had been advised by doctors to take "at
                                  > >least 8000 steps daily".
                                • podnoss
                                  So then, a bad priest, a corrupt priest, one who is an adulterer,a covenant breaker & who has yet to to be defrocked, discovered, or stopped would by virtue of
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
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                                    So then, a bad priest, a corrupt priest, one who is an adulterer,a
                                    covenant breaker & who has yet to to be defrocked, discovered, or
                                    stopped would by virtue of his behaviour make all his sacremental
                                    deliveries null & void?

                                    If such a man unbeknown to the innocent was to perform a marriage
                                    would
                                    that be a phony wedding?

                                    No. The Church doesn't work that way. There are good priests & there
                                    are bad priests. Some are worse than others, some a little better.

                                    Lord have mercy on the child who falls into the hands of a bad priest.

                                    John Walker

                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                                    <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The apostolic succession is not only about being consecrated by a
                                    > true bishop.
                                    >

                                    >
                                    > See message 11492
                                    >
                                    > "to be the authentic Christian Church connected through "unbroken
                                    > apostolic succession" to the early first century church and
                                    > to serve ffectively the tradition of the early church as commanded
                                    > in 2 Timothy 1:14, "Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to
                                    you"
                                    >
                                    >
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