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[orthodox-synod] Re: Orthodox New Testament

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  • Patrick Barrett
    ... of ... name ... told ... Therefore, ... and ... as ... early ... Reverend Father, You are certainly justified in rendering the name of the holy Apostle as
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 5, 2000
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      Archimandrite Gregory writes:

      > King James in the 1600's wanted to be named after an Aposlte. So, instead
      of
      > changing his own name to that of an Apostle, he decided to change the
      name
      > of an Apostle to his own. He took the name of the Apostle Iakovos, and
      told
      > his translators that when they translate the Gospels and the Epistles, to
      > change the name of the Apostle Iakovos and put his name instead.
      Therefore,
      > we read in all English versions the names of the Apostles Peter, JAMES,
      and
      > John. Also, the Epistle of the Apostle Iakovos is now wrongly translated
      as
      > the Epistle of the Apostle James. Iakov in the Greek is Jacob in English.
      > Iakovos is the greekicized, or Greek rendering, of Iakov. All three
      > Evangelists who wrote in Greek wrote the name of the Apostle as Iakovos,
      > which is different from Iakov, and therefore we are very justified when
      > translating the name Iakovos, by keeping it as Iakovos in English. The
      early
      > Greek translators of the Evangelist Matthew also used the word Iakovos.

      Reverend Father,

      You are certainly justified in rendering the name of the holy Apostle as
      Iakovos instead of James; however, this is entirely a matter of taste, and
      King James I did in fact bear the (English) name of an Apostle.

      The name James is a perfectly good Orthodox name, deriving from the late
      Latin Jacomus, which is more obviously related to Iakovos. "James" is
      related to the Italian Giacomo, the Welsh Iago, and so on. This may not be
      immediately obvious from the form of the word, but names do have a way of
      changing, especially across different languages. Thus, we have Miriam,
      Maria, Mary, Maureen, Manon, Mae, Muriel, Moya, Maryse, Moira, and even Min,
      Molly and Polly - all different versions of the same name.

      The Matthew Bible of 1549 (17 years before the birth of King James I)
      rendered St. Mark 1.19 as follows:

      "And when he had gonne a lyttell further thence, he sawe James the sonne of
      Zebede & John hys brother, euen as they were in the shyppe mendynge theyr
      nettes."

      Patrick Barrett
      patrikios@...





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    • Symeon
      ... Arch. Gregory Let us share another reason why every Orthodox home Arch. Gregory should have the Orthodox New Testament, rather than Arch. Gregory any
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 5, 2000
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        >>>>> "Arch. Gregory" == Dormition Skete <gocofusa@...> writes:

        Arch. Gregory> Let us share another reason why every Orthodox home
        Arch. Gregory> should have the Orthodox New Testament, rather than
        Arch. Gregory> any other translation.

        Arch. Gregory> King James in the 1600's wanted to be named after
        Arch. Gregory> an Aposlte. So, instead of changing his own name to
        Arch. Gregory> that of an Apostle, he decided to change the name
        Arch. Gregory> of an Apostle to his own. He took the name of the

        Father Gregory,

        I don't want to sound disrespectful (really!), but others on the
        list have already taken issue with this particular point.

        To others who have seen this work:

        Is Archimandrite Gregory's comment indicative of the scholarship
        that went into this new translation? Not being a Bible scholar
        myself, I wouldn't want to be led by the nose by another (albeit
        more subtle) variant of the Orthodox Study Bible type of nonsense
        (which even *I* could see through!).

        The positive comments so far give me hope, though! I would really
        welcome a new translation I could have complete trust it.

        ===================================================================
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      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        I haven t had time to dig into the actual stages of its linguistic transformation, but the name James *was* used prior to the KJ Bible as the English
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 5, 2000
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          I haven't had time to dig into the actual stages of its linguistic
          transformation, but the name James *was* used prior to the KJ Bible as
          the English equivalent of "Jacobus". Thus I have xerox-from-microfilm
          copy of the Sarum Primer in English, printed in the rule of King Henry
          VIII. In that, there is a section giving Epistles and Gospels for most
          Sundays and feasts, and it heads those from "Epistula Jacobi" as "from
          the Epistle of St. James".

          Fr. John R. Shaw
          > > Arch. Gregory> King
          James in the 1600's
          wanted to be named after
          > Arch. Gregory> an Aposlte. So, instead of changing his own name to
          > Arch. Gregory> that of an Apostle, he decided to change the name
          > Arch. Gregory> of an Apostle to his own. He took the name of the
          >
          > Father Gregory,
          >
          > I don't want to sound disrespectful (really!), but others on the
          > list have already taken issue with this particular point.
          >
          > To others who have seen this work:
          >
          > Is Archimandrite Gregory's comment indicative of the scholarship
          > that went into this new translation? Not being a Bible scholar
          > myself, I wouldn't want to be led by the nose by another (albeit
          > more subtle) variant of the Orthodox Study Bible type of nonsense
          > (which even *I* could see through!).
          >
          > The positive comments so far give me hope, though! I would really
          > welcome a new translation I could have complete trust it.
          >
          > ===================================================================
          > | Symeon | Fredrik Noon, Senior Software Engineer |
          > | fcn@... | Apptitude |
          > | www.noon.org | fnoon@... +408/574-2206 (USA) |
          > |-------------------+---------------------------------------------|
          > | pgp key: <ftp://ftp.noon.org/fcn.asc> DH/DSS 4093/1024:7840AC55 |
          > | fingerprint: 5FB8 29B0 7F6D 24FA 6AD4 07E4 022E 0C58 7840 AC55 |
          > ===================================================================
          >
          >
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        • Robert Miller
          When I was in R.C. seminary many years ago, the Latin professor taught that Jacobus = James. A linguistics professor friend yesterday pointed out that James in
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 5, 2000
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            When I was in R.C. seminary many years ago, the Latin professor taught that
            Jacobus = James.
            A linguistics professor friend yesterday pointed out that James in Spanish
            is Diego, rather a different word from any of those other names proposed.
            It appears that Fr Gregory's hypotheses may be correct, or may not.

            Jos M

            ----------
            > From: Rev. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
            > To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iakovos vs. James
            > Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 2:58 PM
            >
            > I haven't had time to dig into the actual stages of its linguistic
            > transformation, but the name James *was* used prior to the KJ Bible as
            > the English equivalent of "Jacobus". Thus I have xerox-from-microfilm
            > copy of the Sarum Primer in English, printed in the rule of King Henry
            > VIII. In that, there is a section giving Epistles and Gospels for most
            > Sundays and feasts, and it heads those from "Epistula Jacobi" as "from
            > the Epistle of St. James".
            >
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
          • LJames6034@aol.com
            For several hundred years, people have been walking from France into Spain. For what reason? They were on pilgrimage to Santiago d Capostello, where the body
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 6, 2000
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              For several hundred years, people have been walking from France into Spain.
              For what reason? They were on pilgrimage to Santiago d' Capostello, where
              the body of St. James is alleged to be buried. St. Iago?

              King James VI and I was baptized in the Roman Church, by his mother, Mary,
              Queen of Scots, doubtless the priest used Latin, so that the baby prince was
              probably called "Jacobus." If so, he was the 6th Jacobus to reign over the
              Scots. His son James VII and II was the last James to rule over the Scots or
              the English. His son, James VIII and III was only de jure, not de facto, king
              of Scots and of Great Britain. The de facto king was George I.

              A Welshman with the family name James has the name, because, in Welsh, an
              "es" ending indicates someone's daughter's son. Hence, there are so many
              Joneses, because Jones really means: "Jon's daughter's son." Think about
              it. Which of you did not have an Uncle John?

              "James," for a Welshman, means "Camb's daughter's son." Cambria? That is
              what the Romans called Cyru, which, in Welsh, means: "Countrymen." That
              is the same people the Saxons called "Waelsa," which is Saxon for
              "foreigner," or perhaps "translator into Latin." The Welsh were a
              thoroughly Latinized people. Indeed, some Welsh historians say the Roman
              Emperor Magnus Maximus was the "Father of Wales."

              Pardon me for thinking that the whole discussion centres around a problem of
              "ethnocentricism," which, like racism, is a form of insanity. But, it is
              a form of madness with which the Orthodox Church (as a whole) is rife.


              Father Andrew (Laurence J. James, Ph.D., knyaz)
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