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Admitting the Past's Darker Chapters

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  • DDD
    The biggest accusation of Dolutsky was that Putin is an authoritarian leader. But the charge is a double-edged sword: Our own textbooks are full of how the
    Message 1 of 4 , May 31, 2005
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      The biggest accusation of Dolutsky was that Putin is an "authoritarian" leader. But the charge is a double-edged sword: Our own textbooks are full of how the "Czarist" government was an authoritarian "police state" repressing poor communist revolutionaries.

      I am not comparing Putin to a Tsar at all [so VK, don't go zapping off a long post], but Orthodox Russia was not traditionally democratic, either.  Nor was Constantinople.

      This post is not an endorsement of Putin.  It is not even about Putin.   It is rather a critique of jumping at a charge of "authoritarianism."  While one cannot fault anybody for being concerned about the possible re-formation of a soviet regime, condemning all "authoritarianism" means likewise never to revive the monarchy in Russia again.  St. John of San Francisco was very pointed about the need to repent of the sin of regicide ("anti-authoritarianism") and to revive the monarchy in Russia.  

      So if it's charges against Putin that we're to be concerned about, I want to hear not about "authoritarianism," but about whether he allows Orthodoxy to be taught in schools, whether he allows children under 18 to receive Holy Communion, whether he allows people to go to church and be baptized, whether he allows priests to visit people outside of the churches, whether he allows church weddings, and whether people are allowed to teach their children about God.

       

      --Dimitra

       
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Dimitra, Thank you for the invitation. What kind of democracy was the US, in which Indians were genocided and in which the abolition of slavery took a
      Message 2 of 4 , May 31, 2005
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        Dear Dimitra,

        Thank you for the invitation.

        What kind of democracy was the US, in which Indians were genocided
        and in which the abolition of slavery took a civil war, while at the
        same time, the abolition of serfdom in Russia was the result of a
        unanimous decision by all classes of society?

        What kind of democracy do we have now in the US, in which one must be
        supported by the non-elected influence groups that we know to be the
        president? What kind of democracies bomb Serbia?

        Is "democracy" not an utopia similar to the one that created the
        USSR? As you rightly pointed out, manipulating history is a symptom
        of dictatorship, and is a usual features of "democracies".

        I suppose you agree with me that being "authoritarian" is not good or
        bad per se. It all depends on what direction you give to society and
        on the dangers that threaten the State at a given moment. The
        communist revolutionaries in Russia very logically demanded democracy
        to establish their power. Democracies are wondeful environments for
        dark forces to reign. I wonder however whether Putin is a blessing
        for ROCOR.

        Some, who believe in ROCOR, express doubts. Many, who have abandoned
        ROCOR and excommunicate the former as enemies of ROCOR, see an ally
        in Putin and welcome his role in the rapprochement.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@v...> wrote:
        > The biggest accusation of Dolutsky was that Putin is
        an "authoritarian" leader. But the charge is a double-edged sword:
        Our own textbooks are full of how the "Czarist" government was an
        authoritarian "police state" repressing poor communist
        revolutionaries.
        >
        > I am not comparing Putin to a Tsar at all [so VK, don't go zapping
        off a long post], but Orthodox Russia was not traditionally
        democratic, either.  Nor was Constantinople.
        >
        > This post is not an endorsement of Putin.  It is not even about
        Putin.   It is rather a critique of jumping at a charge
        of "authoritarianism."  While one cannot fault anybody for being
        concerned about the possible re-formation of a soviet regime,
        condemning all "authoritarianism" means likewise never to revive the
        monarchy in Russia again.  St. John of San Francisco was very pointed
        about the need to repent of the sin of regicide ("anti-
        authoritarianism") and to revive the monarchy in Russia.  
        >
        > So if it's charges against Putin that we're to be concerned about,
        I want to hear not about "authoritarianism," but about whether he
        allows Orthodoxy to be taught in schools, whether he allows children
        under 18 to receive Holy Communion, whether he allows people to go to
        church and be baptized, whether he allows priests to visit people
        outside of the churches, whether he allows church weddings, and
        whether people are allowed to teach their children about God.
        >
        >  
        >
        > --Dimitra
        >
        >  
      • vkozyreff
        Dear List, I hope it is not sinking into phyletism to show that Russia is a great counrty. I found very interesting the following article on misconceptions and
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 7, 2005
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          Dear List,

          I hope it is not sinking into phyletism to show that Russia is a
          great counrty. I found very interesting the following article on
          misconceptions and myths about Russia, of which I have made a few
          selections below.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff

          ...What proportion of the population was liberated from serfdom by
          Alexander II in 1861? Since Russia was a peasant country, it stood to
          reason that the number would be close to 90 percent. So Goryanin's
          pollees said, and so I myself would have said - and missed the
          correct figure by about a mile: It was, in cold fact, 28 percent.
          The other 72 percent, an absolute majority of the nation, were free
          people, and it doesn't take great intellectual effort to work out
          why. ...

          These vast spaces were colonized by the... communities run on the
          military democracy principle, the Cossack hosts ... Only free people
          could achieve this enormous feat of colonization - and they did.
          ... it was not for sheer sadistic pleasure that the Stalin regime
          shot and sent to the Gulag millions of people: It took all that
          mighty effort, plus a foreign invasion, to beat back the people's
          staunch resistance to the Communist tyranny ...

          ...Their history reads like a catalogue of mighty peasant
          rebellions....about a third of the peasant population of France died
          of famine in 1715 alone - and no sign of mutiny. So much for the
          Europeans' love of freedom.

          ... At the end of 1943, when it became clear that the war (World War
          II) would have to be prosecuted on German territory, the Soviet
          Supreme Command began to work out measures to fight German partisans.
          It just did not enter any Russian head that there would be no German
          partisans. ...

          ... Trial by jury was introduced in Russia in 1864 (in Italy, in
          1865; Austria, 1866; Spain, 1888). ...

          Anyone who talks of "slavishly obedient" press in Russia in, say, the
          19th century simply did not bother to look up the back files: The
          press virtually stopped the government's military reform, attacked
          all of Alexander II's innovations, his foreign policy, etc. , keeping
          censorship at bay.

          .. Capital punishment was introduced in Russia only in the 15th
          century... the first cities to introduce capital punishment were
          Dvinsk and Pskov - under the direct West European influence of the
          Teuton and Livonian Orders. But even in later centuries capital
          punishment was practiced very sparingly: Between 1825 and 1906, just
          19 death sentences were carried out annually in the years of peace in
          a country covering one sixth of the planet. "Civilized" Western
          Europe fares pretty badly by comparison: As late as 1819, 225 kinds
          of crimes and other offences in England were punishable by hanging.

          ... On 4 February, 1610, when there was not a glimmer of that idea
          anywhere in Western Europe and a good century before Peter's
          exploits, the Boyar Duma passed the "basic law of constitutional
          monarchy" (Vasily Klyuchevsky) - a document that reflected a
          centuries-old Russian liberal tradition.
          ...

          Alexander Goryanin. Mify o Rossii i dukh natsii (Myths About Russia
          and the Spirit of the Nation). Pentagraphic, Ltd. Moscow 2002. 336 pp

          http://english.mn.ru/english/issue.php?2003-11-7

          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
          > Dear Dimitra,
          >
          > Thank you for the invitation.
          >
          > What kind of democracy was the US, in which Indians were genocided
          > and in which the abolition of slavery took a civil war, while at
          the
          > same time, the abolition of serfdom in Russia was the result of a
          > unanimous decision by all classes of society?
          >
          > What kind of democracy do we have now in the US, in which one must
          be
          > supported by the non-elected influence groups that we know to be
          the
          > president? What kind of democracies bomb Serbia?
          >
          > Is "democracy" not an utopia similar to the one that created the
          > USSR? As you rightly pointed out, manipulating history is a symptom
          > of dictatorship, and is a usual features of "democracies".
          >
          > I suppose you agree with me that being "authoritarian" is not good
          or
          > bad per se. It all depends on what direction you give to society
          and
          > on the dangers that threaten the State at a given moment. The
          > communist revolutionaries in Russia very logically demanded
          democracy
          > to establish their power. Democracies are wondeful environments for
          > dark forces to reign. I wonder however whether Putin is a blessing
          > for ROCOR.
          >
          > Some, who believe in ROCOR, express doubts. Many, who have
          abandoned
          > ROCOR and excommunicate the former as enemies of ROCOR, see an ally
          > in Putin and welcome his role in the rapprochement.
          >
          > In God,
          >
          > Vladimir Kozyreff
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@v...> wrote:
          > > The biggest accusation of Dolutsky was that Putin is
          > an "authoritarian" leader. But the charge is a double-edged sword:
          > Our own textbooks are full of how the "Czarist" government was an
          > authoritarian "police state" repressing poor communist
          > revolutionaries.
          > >
          > > I am not comparing Putin to a Tsar at all [so VK, don't go
          zapping
          > off a long post], but Orthodox Russia was not traditionally
          > democratic, either.  Nor was Constantinople.
          > >
          > > This post is not an endorsement of Putin.  It is not even about
          > Putin.   It is rather a critique of jumping at a charge
          > of "authoritarianism."  While one cannot fault anybody for being
          > concerned about the possible re-formation of a soviet regime,
          > condemning all "authoritarianism" means likewise never to revive
          the
          > monarchy in Russia again.  St. John of San Francisco was very
          pointed
          > about the need to repent of the sin of regicide ("anti-
          > authoritarianism") and to revive the monarchy in Russia.  
          > >
          > > So if it's charges against Putin that we're to be concerned
          about,
          > I want to hear not about "authoritarianism," but about whether he
          > allows Orthodoxy to be taught in schools, whether he allows
          children
          > under 18 to receive Holy Communion, whether he allows people to go
          to
          > church and be baptized, whether he allows priests to visit people
          > outside of the churches, whether he allows church weddings, and
          > whether people are allowed to teach their children about God.
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          > > --Dimitra
          > >
          > >  
        • hristofor
          XB! You may not have realized it, but your posting of this book review is actually an affirmation of what Fr Alexander just posted. Unfortunately, as we can
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 7, 2005
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            XB!

            You may not have realized it, but your posting of this book review is
            actually an affirmation of what Fr Alexander just posted. Unfortunately,
            as we can see from all the negative "post Soviet" Russia postings on
            this list alone, many Russians (both there and abroad) fall into the
            same trap: The glass is half full. Russia is ruled by the Zh-masony. It
            is ruled by ex-Commies. The country is this, it is that. Everything is
            bad, it could be better. It can't get better. Why isn't it better. It
            will never change.

            It is so unbelievably depressing and pessimistic.

            The book review itself is great and should be read in full.

            vkozyreff ?????:

            >Dear List,
            >
            >
            >
            >Alexander Goryanin. Mify o Rossii i dukh natsii (Myths About Russia
            >and the Spirit of the Nation). Pentagraphic, Ltd. Moscow 2002. 336 pp
            >
            >http://english.mn.ru/english/issue.php?2003-11-7
            >



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