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Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general

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  • gene703
    take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with a man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad judgement or what ? this is
    Message 1 of 23 , May 26, 2005
      take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with a man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad judgement or what ? this is kind of beyond sergianism
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/rocornews/

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    • frraphver
      In fact the Patriarch is standing in the midst of a crowd with priests on either side of him, several bishops, a monk at the top left, & numerous venerable
      Message 2 of 23 , May 27, 2005
        In fact the Patriarch is standing in the midst of a crowd with priests
        on either side of him, several bishops, a monk at the top left, &
        numerous venerable babas & grandfathers. It seems that the Patriarch
        is accused of sergianism just for meeting with other people and being
        charitable. What of the even more *shocking* photo of him (scroll down
        the page a bit) talking kindly to the Jewish rabbi? Obviously for him
        to prove his non-sergianist credentials there should have been a photo
        of the Patriarch throttling the rabbi.
        A lot of these reports of another 'proof' of sergianism are getting to
        the point where they 'prove' our lack of charity more than anything else.
        In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
        > take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with a
        man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad
        judgement or what ? this is kind of beyond sergianism
        > http://www.livejournal.com/users/rocornews/
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Raphael, bless. Would you qualify as uncharitable the question - inuendo that Father John Shaw asked about our Metropolitan Anatasy thanking
        Message 3 of 23 , May 27, 2005
          Dear Father Raphael, bless.

          Would you qualify as "uncharitable" the question - inuendo that
          Father John Shaw asked about our Metropolitan Anatasy thanking Hitler
          before WW II for allowing the ROCOR to build a Church in Germany?

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff



          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@s...>
          wrote:
          > In fact the Patriarch is standing in the midst of a crowd with
          priests
          > on either side of him, several bishops, a monk at the top left, &
          > numerous venerable babas & grandfathers. It seems that the Patriarch
          > is accused of sergianism just for meeting with other people and
          being
          > charitable. What of the even more *shocking* photo of him (scroll
          down
          > the page a bit) talking kindly to the Jewish rabbi? Obviously for
          him
          > to prove his non-sergianist credentials there should have been a
          photo
          > of the Patriarch throttling the rabbi.
          > A lot of these reports of another 'proof' of sergianism are getting
          to
          > the point where they 'prove' our lack of charity more than anything
          else.
          > In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
          > > take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with
          a
          > man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad
          > judgement or what ? this is kind of beyond sergianism
          > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/rocornews/
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • frraphver
          I think that all such matters should be dealt with by charity. A sober understanding in a Christian spirit of the actions of others allows us to see these
          Message 4 of 23 , May 27, 2005
            I think that all such matters should be dealt with by charity. A sober
            understanding in a Christian spirit of the actions of others allows us
            to see these actions in a charitable way. With compassion & sympathy
            we can often see the good intentions of others in difficult
            circumstances. If we are harsh however then the actions of others are
            seen only in a negative light and we see only evil.
            Also when we can arive at no other conclusion than that the action of
            the other person was wrong we must remember the advice that we receive
            in the Great Canon of St Andrew to cover the sins of our fathers.
            This is not a matter of seeing the glass half empty or half full- it
            really does come down to whether we will make the effort to be
            compassionate or not. Compassion allows us in Christ to see something
            positive in a person that we had not seen before.
            As for Fr John Shaw's comments about Metropolitan Anastasy I took them
            in the above light and not as a condemnation of any sort. That is- if
            we can have understanding & sympathy for why our own hierarchs have at
            times addressed with respect some very disreputable characters- then
            we should have sympathy for why others in the MP have also done this.
            In saying this I am not advocating exact moral equivalency- it is my
            impression that our hierarchs never had the close relationship in
            spirit with the Nazis, no matter how many hopes they had that
            supporting them would lead to the destruction of Bolshevism in Russia-
            that the MP had with the Communist regime. However totalitarian
            Germany & Russia were not identical & neither were the pressures on
            the Church- so again we can I think have some sympathy for what the MP
            endured without this compromising our Faith.
            In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack --- In
            orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
            wrote:
            > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
            >
            > Would you qualify as "uncharitable" the question - inuendo that
            > Father John Shaw asked about our Metropolitan Anatasy thanking Hitler
            > before WW II for allowing the ROCOR to build a Church in Germany?
            >
            > In God,
            >
            > Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
          • vjb
            FYI, that is not NKVD uniform. With epaulets? Please... In fact it seems quite a mix of different things. Most likely it is someone who is very proud of his
            Message 5 of 23 , May 27, 2005
              FYI, that is not NKVD uniform. With epaulets? Please... In fact it seems quite a mix of different things. Most likely it is someone who is very proud of his Cossack heritage and used different Soviet items available to him to make up a uniform. Even if it were, NKVD included the criminal and traffic police.

              vb
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: gene703
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general


              take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with a man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad judgement or what ? this is kind of beyond sergianism
              http://www.livejournal.com/users/rocornews/



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • hristofor
              Talk about false advertising. I anticipated finding a picture of Patriarch Alexis and this officer only. I didn t realize that you need a magnifying glass to
              Message 6 of 23 , May 27, 2005
                Talk about false advertising. I anticipated finding a picture of
                Patriarch Alexis and this officer only. I didn't realize that you need a
                magnifying glass to find him. This group probably gathered for the
                recent Victory Day celebrations. I believe that either Fr Stefan or Fr
                Alexander had posted a refreshingly frank post about the chasm between
                emigree support for General Vlasov vs the victory of the Red Army in the
                former USSR over Nazi Germany. I should think that it would be easier
                for an emigree to understand both points of view, then for Russians that
                lived through the invasion, occupation, hunger, slave labor in Nazi
                concentration camps. To a Russian, the nazis were an invader and needed
                to be routed. Should the Russian government reisssue all the medals from
                the WW II era sans hammer/sickle and all mention of the USSR? Should
                these proud veterans be castigated for having defended the Fatherland?
                Or should modern Russia simply take down all the WW II memorials,
                disninter the thousands buried in the mass grave in Piskarevskoje, white
                out all references to the war and pretend it never happened a la George
                Orwell and /1984/?

                Sorry, I find all of the text on that particular page to be rabidly rude
                at best and anti-Christian at worst. This page seems to be inhabited by
                the handfew of those all-perfect folk with lots of spare time on their
                hands, which they use to keep score on all the sins and transgressions
                of the rest of us sinners. Can you imagine Vladyka Philaret or St John
                Maximovich sitting at a computer and posting a laundry list such as
                that? As they say in English "Idle time is the devil's workshop."

                As far as the rabbi, I remembering going to an Orthodox funeral service
                for a Russian-American colleague who unexpectedly passed away. The whole
                institute of around 80 people went to the church for the otpevanie and a
                large number even went to the cemetary. A devout Jew also went and
                refused to go into the church and stood outside for the whole service. A
                very non PC Italian colleague seethed at his behavior and said to me
                "Why did he bother to come at all?" I later asked a fairly devout Jewish
                colleague from Russia about the incident and she told me simply that it
                would be anathema for a devout Jew to walk into a church, for they
                despise the Cross and hate to be reminded of it. So, based on this info,
                I find it quite remarkable to see this rabbi sitting across from the
                Patriarch with the Cross standing triumphantly as a witness right there
                on the table. If anyone should be scandalized, I would think that it
                would be the rabbi's flcok back in NY.

                frraphver ?????:

                >In fact the Patriarch is standing in the midst of a crowd with priests
                >on either side of him, several bishops, a monk at the top left, &
                >numerous venerable babas & grandfathers. It seems that the Patriarch
                >is accused of sergianism just for meeting with other people and being
                >charitable. What of the even more *shocking* photo of him (scroll down
                >the page a bit) talking kindly to the Jewish rabbi? Obviously for him
                >to prove his non-sergianist credentials there should have been a photo
                >of the Patriarch throttling the rabbi.
                >A lot of these reports of another 'proof' of sergianism are getting to
                >the point where they 'prove' our lack of charity more than anything else.
                >In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with a
                >>
                >>
                >man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad
                >judgement or what ? this is kind of beyond sergianism
                >
                >
                >>http://www.livejournal.com/users/rocornews
                >>


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • goossir
                XB! Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal, from the point of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals on their riassas? I had
                Message 7 of 23 , May 27, 2005
                  XB!

                  Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal, from the point
                  of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals on their
                  riassas? I had the impression that priests, bishops acknowledge only
                  the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be exposed on one's breast
                  or am I mistaken?

                  Irina Pahlen
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: If standing outdoors with a group of people, among whom are retired Russian army officers, is beyond Sergianism -- then what of
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 27, 2005
                    XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

                    > Talk about false advertising. I anticipated finding a picture of
                    > Patriarch Alexis and this officer only. I didn't realize that you need a
                    > magnifying glass to find him. This group probably gathered for the
                    > recent Victory Day celebrations.

                    JRS: If standing outdoors with a group of people, among whom are retired Russian army
                    officers, is "beyond Sergianism" -- then what of those many occasions when outsiders visit
                    our churches?

                    Would someone not be able to call it "ecumenism" if a person not of our faith is allowed to
                    visit one of our churches -- and even be present at the Divine Liturgy?

                    (It was never the custom in Russia, BTW, to put anyone out at the dismissal of the
                    catechumens).

                    And then, what might someone not say of those cases where we drive past churches of other
                    jurisdictions, or other faiths?

                    Perhaps the failure to drive around by another route, could be seen as "crypto-ecumenistic"!

                    Where there is a will, there is a way -- and those who look for "Sergianism" and "ecumenism"
                    will seek till they find.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Father John, bless. You write: Where there is a will, there is a way -- and those who look for Sergianism and ecumenism will seek till they find . It
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 27, 2005
                      Dear Father John, bless.

                      You write: "Where there is a will, there is a way -- and those who
                      look for "Sergianism" and "ecumenism" will seek till they find".

                      It did not take long for me to seek and find the information below.
                      Please help me to understand that this has nothing to do with
                      sergianism and ecumenism.

                      The Russian newspaper "Nasha Strana" ("Our Country") published in
                      Argentina, in issue N° 2768 (2 April 2005) reports a short notice
                      entitled "Archbishop Mark subjects clergy to coercion.

                      "According to information received by the Memorial Society of
                      Metropolitan Anthony, Archbishop Mark of Berlin already forces the
                      clergy of the Church Abroad in the Holy Land to take Communion from
                      the Moscow Patriarchate.

                      And those, who refuse he threatens with extradition. When complaints
                      about this were voiced to Metropolitan Laurus, the ambiguous answer
                      was: "This is sad, but one is to obey one's Hierarch" (Ýòî
                      ïðèñêîðáíî, íî àðõèåðåþ íóæíî ïîä÷èíÿòüñÿ).

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                      > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
                      >
                      > > Talk about false advertising. I anticipated finding a picture of
                      > > Patriarch Alexis and this officer only. I didn't realize that you
                      need a
                      > > magnifying glass to find him. This group probably gathered for
                      the
                      > > recent Victory Day celebrations.
                      >
                      > JRS: If standing outdoors with a group of people, among whom are
                      retired Russian army
                      > officers, is "beyond Sergianism" -- then what of those many
                      occasions when outsiders visit
                      > our churches?
                      >
                      > Would someone not be able to call it "ecumenism" if a person not of
                      our faith is allowed to
                      > visit one of our churches -- and even be present at the Divine
                      Liturgy?
                      >
                      > (It was never the custom in Russia, BTW, to put anyone out at the
                      dismissal of the
                      > catechumens).
                      >
                      > And then, what might someone not say of those cases where we drive
                      past churches of other
                      > jurisdictions, or other faiths?
                      >
                      > Perhaps the failure to drive around by another route, could be seen
                      as "crypto-ecumenistic"!
                      >
                      > Where there is a will, there is a way -- and those who look
                      for "Sergianism" and "ecumenism"
                      > will seek till they find.
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • michael nikitin
                      The issue and problem is not only this picture. The Patriarch of MP is a controversial figure by his actions and statements. This gives the wrong impression to
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 27, 2005
                        The issue and problem is not only this picture. The Patriarch of MP is a controversial figure by his actions and statements. This gives the wrong impression to the faithful. The sad part of the Patriarch is that he doesn't care and this shows he hasn't repented of his past.

                        Our clergy defend Patriarch Alexey by finding faults in our previous hierarch's. They are defending the Patriarch and MP at the expense of our previous hierarch's and ROCA.



                        Michael N





                        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                        XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

                        > Talk about false advertising. I anticipated finding a picture of
                        > Patriarch Alexis and this officer only. I didn't realize that you need a
                        > magnifying glass to find him. This group probably gathered for the
                        > recent Victory Day celebrations.

                        JRS: If standing outdoors with a group of people, among whom are retired Russian army
                        officers, is "beyond Sergianism" -- then what of those many occasions when outsiders visit
                        our churches?

                        Would someone not be able to call it "ecumenism" if a person not of our faith is allowed to
                        visit one of our churches -- and even be present at the Divine Liturgy?

                        (It was never the custom in Russia, BTW, to put anyone out at the dismissal of the
                        catechumens).

                        And then, what might someone not say of those cases where we drive past churches of other
                        jurisdictions, or other faiths?

                        Perhaps the failure to drive around by another route, could be seen as "crypto-ecumenistic"!

                        Where there is a will, there is a way -- and those who look for "Sergianism" and "ecumenism"
                        will seek till they find.

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw




                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • vkozyreff
                        Dear List, When arrested and interrogated, Talibans and Chechen boyeviki usually declare that they worked in the field kitchen and never carried a gun. The
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 27, 2005
                          Dear List,

                          When arrested and interrogated, Talibans and Chechen boyeviki usually
                          declare that they worked in the field kitchen and never carried a
                          gun. The ex-KGB all declare now that they worked in the "kontr
                          razvyetka" (counter espionnage). They sound so sincere that "dazhe
                          povyerit' khochetsya" (you even feel like believing them).

                          The "Patriarch" claims to represent the Church. The identity of those
                          with whom he associates in his public life say a lot about
                          the "Church" real identity. Tell me who are your associates, I will
                          tell you who you are. Do you believe that the Russians are so stupid
                          that they do not suspect anything?

                          Vladimir Kozyreff



                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vjb" <tompkins440@v...> wrote:
                          > FYI, that is not NKVD uniform. With epaulets? Please... In fact it
                          seems quite a mix of different things. Most likely it is someone who
                          is very proud of his Cossack heritage and used different Soviet items
                          available to him to make up a uniform. Even if it were, NKVD included
                          the criminal and traffic police.
                          >
                          > vb
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: gene703
                          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM
                          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD
                          general
                          >
                          >
                          > take a look at this, Patriarch Aleksei 2 takes proudly poses with
                          a man in NKVD general uniform next to Kremlin wall, is this bad
                          judgement or what ? this is kind of beyond sergianism
                          > http://www.livejournal.com/users/rocornews/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • antiquariu@aol.com
                          In a message dated 5/27/2005 7:26:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, irene.goossens@cec.eu.int writes: XB! Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal,
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 28, 2005
                            In a message dated 5/27/2005 7:26:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            irene.goossens@... writes:

                            XB!

                            Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal, from the point
                            of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals on their
                            riassas? I had the impression that priests, bishops acknowledge only
                            the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be exposed on one's breast
                            or am I mistaken?

                            Irina Pahlen




                            Don't know how ecclesiologically normal it is, but this is a good troll.
                            There is tradition to content with, and St John of Kronstadt wore his most of
                            the time.

                            Vova Hindrichs

                            Thank-you for your translation workorder. ALS appreciates the opportunity to
                            serve you and invites you to come see our new corporate facilities at Salem
                            House, 8375 West Main Street, Marshall, Virginia 20115.

                            v/r

                            Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                            Director of Operations
                            (540) 364-9041
                            (703) 832-0692 fax
                            (703) 627-8881 cell


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • vkozyreff
                            Dear Vova, All the civilian awards that St John had received were from an orthodox empire dedicated to the salvation of the souls. In his scase, service to God
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 28, 2005
                              Dear Vova,

                              All the civilian awards that St John had received were from an
                              orthodox empire dedicated to the salvation of the souls. In his
                              scase, service to God included service to the State

                              This cannoty not be the case of the medals that we have seen on the
                              pictures in question.

                              In God,

                              Vladimir Kozyreff


                              "Government is generally assumed to be a good thing, at least within
                              the context of this world. Government is the means by which civil
                              peace and tranquility are created which enable the Gospel to be
                              spread and the Christian to live a Godly life.

                              There is of course some disagreement; the Slavophiles saw government
                              as a necessary evil due to man's fall, good for what it achieved in
                              this world but unfortunate because it must be based upon force;
                              others, such as St John of Krondstadt, have seen in earthly
                              governments a precursor, a shadowy copy of the Eternal Kingdom, so
                              that loyal service on earth is preparation for being a loyal citizen
                              of God's kingdom.

                              If government is therefore good, it serves a purpose in God's plan of
                              salvation, and is therefore as much a charism and vocation as direct
                              divine service. This is why Justinian identified priesthood and
                              government as the two greatest gifts God has bestowed on mankind, the
                              two greatest callings one can follow.

                              ...what is important is that one's political duties to the state
                              cannot be contradictory to one's religious duties to God. One cannot
                              be God's servant religiously but a servant to paganism or Satan
                              politically. Conversely, service to God includes service to the
                              state; one cannot shirk one's political duties by claiming religious
                              obligations.

                              FINAL THOUGHTS, Dr. Nikolas K. Gvosdev, Eastern Perspectives on
                              Church and State

                              http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5357/ft.html



                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, antiquariu@a... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 5/27/2005 7:26:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              > irene.goossens@c... writes:
                              >
                              > XB!
                              >
                              > Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal, from the
                              point
                              > of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals on
                              their
                              > riassas? I had the impression that priests, bishops acknowledge
                              only
                              > the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be exposed on one's
                              breast
                              > or am I mistaken?
                              >
                              > Irina Pahlen
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Don't know how ecclesiologically normal it is, but this is a good
                              troll.
                              > There is tradition to content with, and St John of Kronstadt wore
                              his most of
                              > the time.
                              >
                              > Vova Hindrichs
                              >
                              > Thank-you for your translation workorder. ALS appreciates the
                              opportunity to
                              > serve you and invites you to come see our new corporate facilities
                              at Salem
                              > House, 8375 West Main Street, Marshall, Virginia 20115.
                              >
                              > v/r
                              >
                              > Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                              > Director of Operations
                              > (540) 364-9041
                              > (703) 832-0692 fax
                              > (703) 627-8881 cell
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • V. Boitchenko
                              Vladimir, Our Lord associated with the sinners! vb ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 28, 2005
                                Vladimir,

                                Our Lord associated with the sinners!

                                vb

                                >Tell me who are your associates, I will
                                >tell you who you are. Do you believe that the Russians are so stupid
                                >that they do not suspect anything?

                                >Vladimir Kozyreff



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                XPICTOC BOCKPECE! ... JRS: Everyone in Russia today associates with people who grew up under Soviet rule, who went to Soviet schools, had to take courses and
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 28, 2005
                                  XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

                                  Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                                  > The "Patriarch" claims to represent the Church. The identity of those
                                  > with whom he associates in his public life say a lot about
                                  > the "Church" real identity. Tell me who are your associates, I will
                                  > tell you who you are. Do you believe that the Russians are so stupid
                                  > that they do not suspect anything?

                                  JRS: Everyone in Russia today associates with people who grew up under Soviet rule, who
                                  went to Soviet schools, had to take courses and pass exams on official atheism, served in the
                                  Red Army, collaborated with the police, sang the Soviet anthem, carried red banners,
                                  marched past images of Lenin, -- you name it.

                                  In Christ
                                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                                • gene703
                                  ... The man was wearing an vintage NKVD general uniform. I bet he personally killed and tortured many russians including priests as he grew through the ranks.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 28, 2005
                                    >> Everyone in Russia today associates with people who grew up under Soviet rule

                                    The man was wearing an vintage NKVD general uniform. I bet he personally killed and tortured many russians including priests as he grew through the ranks. Taking a picture with him was a major failure of judgement. Posting it on an official patriarch site was a more than a failure of judgement it was a message. Can you imagine one of our hierachs takin a picture with a man in SS general uniform ?

                                    Gene T


                                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                                    XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

                                    Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                                    > The "Patriarch" claims to represent the Church. The identity of those
                                    > with whom he associates in his public life say a lot about
                                    > the "Church" real identity. Tell me who are your associates, I will
                                    > tell you who you are. Do you believe that the Russians are so stupid
                                    > that they do not suspect anything?

                                    JRS: Everyone in Russia today associates with people who grew up under Soviet rule, who
                                    went to Soviet schools, had to take courses and pass exams on official atheism, served in the
                                    Red Army, collaborated with the police, sang the Soviet anthem, carried red banners,
                                    marched past images of Lenin, -- you name it.

                                    In Christ
                                    Fr. John R. Shaw



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                                  • DDD
                                    I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution of course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his riassa. I was as surprised as
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 28, 2005
                                      I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution of course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his riassa. I was as surprised as you are at them time. So, I wouldn't be too quick to call this some kind of soviet phenomenon.

                                      --Dimitra


                                       From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@...>
                                       Subject: Re: Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general

                                       XB!

                                       Just a simple, perhaps stupid question:  Is it normal, from the
                                       point of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals
                                       on their riassas?  I had the impression that priests, bishops
                                       acknowledge only the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be
                                       exposed on one's breast or am I mistaken?

                                       Irina Pahlen
                                    • antiquariu@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 5/28/2005 5:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dimitradd@verizon.net writes: I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 29, 2005
                                        In a message dated 5/28/2005 5:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                        dimitradd@... writes:

                                        I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution of
                                        course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his riassa. I was as
                                        surprised as you are at them time. So, I wouldn't be too quick to call this some
                                        kind of soviet phenomenon.

                                        --Dimitra






                                        Concur, Dimitra. Not only St John, but countless other Russian clerics of
                                        all persuasions. But, lest we think its a Russian phenomenon, I saw the same
                                        thing in Greece, and even in these United States. Problem we have on this
                                        list is that some folks are so busy seeking splinters that they fail to heed
                                        the motes. . .

                                        Nuff said,

                                        In Christ,

                                        Vova Hindrichs

                                        v/r

                                        Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                                        Director of Operations
                                        (540) 364-9041
                                        (703) 832-0692 fax
                                        (703) 627-8881 cell


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • antiquariu@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 5/28/2005 5:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dimitradd@verizon.net writes: I had the impression that priests, bishops acknowledge only the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 29, 2005
                                          In a message dated 5/28/2005 5:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                          dimitradd@... writes:

                                          I had the impression that priests, bishops
                                          acknowledge only the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be
                                          exposed on one's breast or am I mistaken?






                                          And you're mistaken there as well! Don't forget that there are such things
                                          as the Panagia, and that's definitely not the Cross. And we have seen all
                                          sorts of prayer belts and ties.

                                          in Christ

                                          Vova Hindrichs

                                          v/r

                                          Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                                          Director of Operations
                                          (540) 364-9041
                                          (703) 832-0692 fax
                                          (703) 627-8881 cell


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • goossir
                                          Dear Dimitra, As you say, the medals which St John wore date before the revolution. Probably these decorations represented crosses, saints as it was the
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 29, 2005
                                            Dear Dimitra,

                                            As you say, the medals which St John wore date before the
                                            revolution. Probably these decorations represented crosses, saints
                                            as it was the custom then (the cross of St Andrew, St Geoges, etc.)
                                            or simply some Church medals.
                                            I still cannot understand how any clergy can wear medals
                                            representing the red star, the hammer and the sickle. Those are the
                                            symbol of a demonic power which persecuted Christians and openly
                                            declared war on God.
                                            It is beyond any comprehension.

                                            Irina Pahlen

                                            was --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@v...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution
                                            of course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his
                                            riassa. I was as surprised as you are at them time. So, I
                                            wouldn't be too quick to call this some kind of soviet phenomenon.
                                            >
                                            > --Dimitra
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >  From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@c...>
                                            >  Subject: Re: Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general
                                            >
                                            >  XB!
                                            >
                                            >  Just a simple, perhaps stupid question:  Is it normal, from the
                                            >  point of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals
                                            >  on their riassas?  I had the impression that priests, bishops
                                            >  acknowledge only the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be
                                            >  exposed on one's breast or am I mistaken?
                                            >
                                            >  Irina Pahlen
                                          • vkozyreff
                                            Dear List, The two websites below clearly show the kind of medals that St John wore. I would not describe them as all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 29, 2005
                                              Dear List,

                                              The two websites below clearly show the kind of medals that St John
                                              wore. I would not describe them as " all sorts of medals and ribbons
                                              pinned on his riassa", or as a "phenomenon". They are all orthodox
                                              crosses.

                                              I am surprised at such an irrespectful description of a saint of our
                                              Church and at the lack of discernment that lead to assimilate these
                                              medals with those of the picture showing Alexi II with priests
                                              wearing communist medals.

                                              In God,

                                              Vladimir Kozyreff

                                              http://www.days.ru/Images/ii984&814.htm

                                              http://www.livres-mystiques.com/partieTEXTES/Cronstadt/cronstadt.html

                                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@v...> wrote:
                                              > I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution
                                              of course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his
                                              riassa. I was as surprised as you are at them time. So, I wouldn't
                                              be too quick to call this some kind of soviet phenomenon.
                                              >
                                              > --Dimitra
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@c...>
                                              >  Subject: Re: Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general
                                              >
                                              >  XB!
                                              >
                                              >  Just a simple, perhaps stupid question:  Is it normal, from the
                                              >  point of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals
                                              >  on their riassas?  I had the impression that priests, bishops
                                              >  acknowledge only the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be
                                              >  exposed on one's breast or am I mistaken?
                                              >
                                              >  Irina Pahlen
                                            • michael nikitin
                                              I never seen so many medals given to individual clergy. I wonder what they received these medals for ...and who gave them? This is not a Soviet phenomenon,
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 31, 2005
                                                I never seen so many medals given to individual clergy. I wonder what they received these medals for ...and who gave them? This is not a Soviet phenomenon, this is Soviet standard practice for a job well done. The Soviet clergy would have to tell what one confessed if asked
                                                by the KGB. They would have means to test these clergy from time to time to make sure they were not hiding anything.

                                                It is not how many medals these clergy received that surprises me, but those who defend anything MP, even at the expense of our previous Hierarch's and Saints.

                                                Michael N


                                                DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote: I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution of course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his riassa. I was as surprised as you are at them time. So, I wouldn't be too quick to call this some kind of soviet phenomenon.

                                                --Dimitra


                                                From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@...>
                                                Subject: Re: Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general

                                                XB!

                                                Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal, from the
                                                point of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals
                                                on their riassas? I had the impression that priests, bishops
                                                acknowledge only the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be
                                                exposed on one's breast or am I mistaken?

                                                Irina Pahlen






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                                              • gene703
                                                In all fairness these priest could have been serving in the regular army during WW2 and most of these orders / medals do look like combat decorations BUT the
                                                Message 23 of 23 , May 31, 2005
                                                  In all fairness these priest could have been serving in the regular army during WW2 and most of these orders / medals do look like combat decorations BUT the outrageous part of the photo is a man above and to the left of Patriarch who is wearing a vintage NKVD dress uniform with a chest full of real medals and we all know what NKVD officers got decorated for - butchery, including incidently up to 90% of pre-revolutionary clergy. A Russian Orthodox Holocaust so to speak. So there was a certain cognitive dissonance for anyone familiar with Russian history, sort of like a jewish rabbay posing with SS general, mind you, not wermacht general , SS, shutzshtaffel general. A bad, unfortunate choice or a message ? You decide.

                                                  michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:I never seen so many medals given to individual clergy. I wonder what they received these medals for ...and who gave them? This is not a Soviet phenomenon, this is Soviet standard practice for a job well done. The Soviet clergy would have to tell what one confessed if asked
                                                  by the KGB. They would have means to test these clergy from time to time to make sure they were not hiding anything.

                                                  It is not how many medals these clergy received that surprises me, but those who defend anything MP, even at the expense of our previous Hierarch's and Saints.

                                                  Michael N


                                                  DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote: I have seen photos of St. John of Kronstadt, before the Revolution of course, with all sorts of medals and ribbons pinned on his riassa. I was as surprised as you are at them time. So, I wouldn't be too quick to call this some kind of soviet phenomenon.

                                                  --Dimitra


                                                  From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: Patriarch proudly poses with NKVD general

                                                  XB!

                                                  Just a simple, perhaps stupid question: Is it normal, from the
                                                  point of view of ecclesiology, that clergymen wear military medals
                                                  on their riassas? I had the impression that priests, bishops
                                                  acknowledge only the Holy Cross as the sole exterior sign to be
                                                  exposed on one's breast or am I mistaken?

                                                  Irina Pahlen






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