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ROCA's 1st Pre-Sobor Committee meeting

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  • michael nikitin
    Nowadays governments and organizations want polls to see where they stand and what issues stand in their way. With this information they can then modify the
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 18 10:46 AM
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      Nowadays governments and organizations want polls to see where they stand and what issues stand in their way. With this information they can then modify the issues that stand in the way to incorporate more people to agree with their agenda. Pres.Clinton used his polls effectively on a number of occasions.

      The issue of why we should not unite is sadly not being discussed as needed. The MP has it's own agenda as do those who want to unite. Issues that are crucial for the Church are swept under the table and presented to the people as being no longer an issue.

      Eucharistic communion will occur no matter what. The question is when.

      Michael N



      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/preds
      obor.html

      SAN FRANCISCO: February 14, 2005

      First Meeting of the Pre-Sobor Committee is Held

      On February 8, the first meeting of the Pre-Sobor Committee was held,
      headed by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion. Participating were
      Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, Bishop
      Gabriel of Manhattan; Protopriest Victor Potapov, the Rector of St
      John the Baptist Cathedral in Washington, DC; Protopriest Peter
      Perekrestov, Secretary of the Local Diocesan Administration; Priest
      Serafim Gan; and V.V. Krassovsky, Director of the Choir of the
      Cathedral of the Mother of God "Joy of All Who Sorrow" in San
      Francisco. Divine Liturgy was performed that day by the Deputy
      Director of the High School of SS Cyril and Methodius, Protopriest
      Yaroslav Belikov, at which the Committee members prayed, having
      arrived the day before.

      At two o'clock, before the meeting of the Committee, Priest Serafim
      Gan performed a moleben at the Church of St. Tikhon of Zadonsk. Then
      the magnification was sung to him, and then on to the library of
      Archbishop Anthony (Medvedev, +2000), where Archbishop Hilarion,
      opening the meeting with a greeting, read several point of
      instruction from His Eminence the First Hierarch Metropolitan Laurus
      and of the Synod of Bishops, appointed Protopriest Peter Perekrestov
      as the secretary of the Committee and proposed that they compose a
      list of possible additional members from among the laity, which would
      represent the entire spectrum of viewpoints and opinions of the
      children of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. This list
      would be presented for consideration to the Synod of Bishops, whose
      next session will be held in May of this year in Munich in May. The
      main topic of the planned All-Diaspora Council, which is scheduled to
      be held in San Francisco in the first half of next year, is the
      question of the possibility of establishing Eucharistic communion
      with the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate and also
      matters of intra-ecclesiastical life, in the mission and service of
      the Russian Church Abroad. Two subcommittees were formed: 1) on
      questions of the practical organization and procedures of the 4th All-
      Diaspora Council, under the presidency of Archbishop Kyrill, and 2)
      to compose, on the basis of materials from previous Councils, a
      corresponding set of Instructions for this Council and other
      documents. The latter subcommittee began its work on the following
      day.







      __________________________________________________
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    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER DEar Michael, Being a convert, and coming to ROCOR from the OCA, I wish some one would tell why this re-unification
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 19 5:28 PM
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        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        DEar Michael,
        Being a convert, and coming to ROCOR from the OCA, I
        wish some one would tell why this re-unification is so
        bad. What terrible things will happen to ROCOR? To me,
        to be in communion with other Orthodox Churches and
        especially MP would be a GOOD thing. Please tell me
        why it would be a bad idea.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        --- michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Nowadays governments and organizations want polls to
        > see where they stand and what issues stand in their
        > way. With this information they can then modify the
        > issues that stand in the way to incorporate more
        > people to agree with their agenda. Pres.Clinton used
        > his polls effectively on a number of occasions.
        >
        > The issue of why we should not unite is sadly not
        > being discussed as needed. The MP has it's own
        > agenda as do those who want to unite. Issues that
        > are crucial for the Church are swept under the table
        > and presented to the people as being no longer an
        > issue.
        >
        > Eucharistic communion will occur no matter what. The
        > question is when.
        >
        > Michael N
        >
        >
        >
        >
        http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/preds
        > obor.html
        >
        > SAN FRANCISCO: February 14, 2005
        >
        > First Meeting of the Pre-Sobor Committee is Held
        >
        > On February 8, the first meeting of the Pre-Sobor
        > Committee was held,
        > headed by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.
        > Participating were
        > Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western
        > America, Bishop
        > Gabriel of Manhattan; Protopriest Victor Potapov,
        > the Rector of St
        > John the Baptist Cathedral in Washington, DC;
        > Protopriest Peter
        > Perekrestov, Secretary of the Local Diocesan
        > Administration; Priest
        > Serafim Gan; and V.V. Krassovsky, Director of the
        > Choir of the
        > Cathedral of the Mother of God "Joy of All Who
        > Sorrow" in San
        > Francisco. Divine Liturgy was performed that day by
        > the Deputy
        > Director of the High School of SS Cyril and
        > Methodius, Protopriest
        > Yaroslav Belikov, at which the Committee members
        > prayed, having
        > arrived the day before.
        >
        > At two o'clock, before the meeting of the Committee,
        > Priest Serafim
        > Gan performed a moleben at the Church of St. Tikhon
        > of Zadonsk. Then
        > the magnification was sung to him, and then on to
        > the library of
        > Archbishop Anthony (Medvedev, +2000), where
        > Archbishop Hilarion,
        > opening the meeting with a greeting, read several
        > point of
        > instruction from His Eminence the First Hierarch
        > Metropolitan Laurus
        > and of the Synod of Bishops, appointed Protopriest
        > Peter Perekrestov
        > as the secretary of the Committee and proposed that
        > they compose a
        > list of possible additional members from among the
        > laity, which would
        > represent the entire spectrum of viewpoints and
        > opinions of the
        > children of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
        > Russia. This list
        > would be presented for consideration to the Synod of
        > Bishops, whose
        > next session will be held in May of this year in
        > Munich in May. The
        > main topic of the planned All-Diaspora Council,
        > which is scheduled to
        > be held in San Francisco in the first half of next
        > year, is the
        > question of the possibility of establishing
        > Eucharistic communion
        > with the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow
        > Patriarchate and also
        > matters of intra-ecclesiastical life, in the mission
        > and service of
        > the Russian Church Abroad. Two subcommittees were
        > formed: 1) on
        > questions of the practical organization and
        > procedures of the 4th All-
        > Diaspora Council, under the presidency of Archbishop
        > Kyrill, and 2)
        > to compose, on the basis of materials from previous
        > Councils, a
        > corresponding set of Instructions for this Council
        > and other
        > documents. The latter subcommittee began its work
        > on the following
        > day.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
        > protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




        __________________________________
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      • vkozyreff
        Dear Lawrence, I would even say more: if the MP is the Mother Church, each moment that we live in separation from it is a sin. In God, Vladimir Kozyreff ...
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 20 12:37 AM
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          Dear Lawrence,

          I would even say more: if the MP is the Mother Church, each moment
          that we live in separation from it is a sin.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff



          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
          <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
          > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
          > DEar Michael,
          > Being a convert, and coming to ROCOR from the OCA, I
          > wish some one would tell why this re-unification is so
          > bad. What terrible things will happen to ROCOR? To me,
          > to be in communion with other Orthodox Churches and
          > especially MP would be a GOOD thing. Please tell me
          > why it would be a bad idea.
          > Love in Christ,
          > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
          > --- michael nikitin <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Nowadays governments and organizations want polls to
          > > see where they stand and what issues stand in their
          > > way. With this information they can then modify the
          > > issues that stand in the way to incorporate more
          > > people to agree with their agenda. Pres.Clinton used
          > > his polls effectively on a number of occasions.
          > >
          > > The issue of why we should not unite is sadly not
          > > being discussed as needed. The MP has it's own
          > > agenda as do those who want to unite. Issues that
          > > are crucial for the Church are swept under the table
          > > and presented to the people as being no longer an
          > > issue.
          > >
          > > Eucharistic communion will occur no matter what. The
          > > question is when.
          > >
          > > Michael N
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/preds
          > > obor.html
          > >
          > > SAN FRANCISCO: February 14, 2005
          > >
          > > First Meeting of the Pre-Sobor Committee is Held
          > >
          > > On February 8, the first meeting of the Pre-Sobor
          > > Committee was held,
          > > headed by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.
          > > Participating were
          > > Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western
          > > America, Bishop
          > > Gabriel of Manhattan; Protopriest Victor Potapov,
          > > the Rector of St
          > > John the Baptist Cathedral in Washington, DC;
          > > Protopriest Peter
          > > Perekrestov, Secretary of the Local Diocesan
          > > Administration; Priest
          > > Serafim Gan; and V.V. Krassovsky, Director of the
          > > Choir of the
          > > Cathedral of the Mother of God "Joy of All Who
          > > Sorrow" in San
          > > Francisco. Divine Liturgy was performed that day by
          > > the Deputy
          > > Director of the High School of SS Cyril and
          > > Methodius, Protopriest
          > > Yaroslav Belikov, at which the Committee members
          > > prayed, having
          > > arrived the day before.
          > >
          > > At two o'clock, before the meeting of the Committee,
          > > Priest Serafim
          > > Gan performed a moleben at the Church of St. Tikhon
          > > of Zadonsk. Then
          > > the magnification was sung to him, and then on to
          > > the library of
          > > Archbishop Anthony (Medvedev, +2000), where
          > > Archbishop Hilarion,
          > > opening the meeting with a greeting, read several
          > > point of
          > > instruction from His Eminence the First Hierarch
          > > Metropolitan Laurus
          > > and of the Synod of Bishops, appointed Protopriest
          > > Peter Perekrestov
          > > as the secretary of the Committee and proposed that
          > > they compose a
          > > list of possible additional members from among the
          > > laity, which would
          > > represent the entire spectrum of viewpoints and
          > > opinions of the
          > > children of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
          > > Russia. This list
          > > would be presented for consideration to the Synod of
          > > Bishops, whose
          > > next session will be held in May of this year in
          > > Munich in May. The
          > > main topic of the planned All-Diaspora Council,
          > > which is scheduled to
          > > be held in San Francisco in the first half of next
          > > year, is the
          > > question of the possibility of establishing
          > > Eucharistic communion
          > > with the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow
          > > Patriarchate and also
          > > matters of intra-ecclesiastical life, in the mission
          > > and service of
          > > the Russian Church Abroad. Two subcommittees were
          > > formed: 1) on
          > > questions of the practical organization and
          > > procedures of the 4th All-
          > > Diaspora Council, under the presidency of Archbishop
          > > Kyrill, and 2)
          > > to compose, on the basis of materials from previous
          > > Councils, a
          > > corresponding set of Instructions for this Council
          > > and other
          > > documents. The latter subcommittee began its work
          > > on the following
          > > day.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
          > > protection around
          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
          > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
        • DDD
          Mike, listen to what you are saying.  How does Archbishop Hilarion ... proposed that they compose a list of possible additional members from among the
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 20 6:34 PM
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            "Mike," listen to what you are saying.  How does


            "Archbishop Hilarion ... proposed that they compose a
            list of possible additional members from among the laity, which would
            represent the ****entire spectrum of viewpoints and opinions**** of the
            children of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia"  [emphasis mine]

            equal "why we should not unite is sadly ** not being discussed**"??

            It is completely obvious that Archbishop Ilarion is actually allowing and inviting even those "children of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia" who do not believe we should unite, or else do not believe that the necessary conditions are being met, or do not know whether the necessary conditions are being met, or have concerns about the conditions.

            Could it be that you missed that part?
             
            Neither Metr. Lavr or Archbishop Ilarion are obliged to even have laity at the Sobor, much less invite people who are not in favor of re-unification.  The fact that they are both having a Sobor with laity and that they are inviting "the entire spectrum of viewpoints and opinions" shows that there is no "sweeping under the table."

            As to your previous question, do I know what our agenda or conditions are, I've already said that I had opportunity to speak with Archimandrite Luke of Jordanville--who himself was not particularly in favor of reunification, or had reservations.  The fact that he was put on the committee says a lot--they could have left him off.  He was there at the talks and he flat out stated to us that none of our concerns were breached at the talks--the committee members held fast to them at all times.  It's not like we don't have concerns, but they are being addressed, both at the committee and at the future Sobor.

            Now, if "Eucharistic communion" would occur "no matter what," then of course we would already be concelebrating, wouldn't we?  It will happen, not "no matter what," but when we feel our concerns are sufficiently met for it to happen.

            On pp. 569-571 of the English version of Russia's Catacomb Saints, there is a list of conditions for re-unification composed by Metr. Philaret of Blessed Memory (yes, I consider him a Saint).  One honestly has to say that all or most of them have been fulfilled.  And, one honestly has to note that none of his conditions say, "Until Metr. Sergius is *personally* condemned."  Are we going to put more conditions on re-unification than Vladyka Philaret did?


            --Dimitra (real name)

             

             

            ______________________________________________________________________________________________
             From: michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...>
             Subject: ROCA's 1st Pre-Sobor Committee meeting


             Nowadays governments and organizations want polls to see where they
             stand and what issues stand in their way. With this information they
             can then modify the issues that stand in the way to incorporate more
             people to agree with their agenda. Pres.Clinton used his polls
             effectively on a number of occasions.

             The issue of why we should not unite is sadly not being discussed as
             needed. The MP has it's own agenda as do those who want to unite.
             Issues that are crucial for the Church are swept under the table and
             presented to the people as being no longer an issue.

             Eucharistic communion will occur no matter what. The question is
             when.

             Michael N
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