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[orthodox-synod] Re: American Church Politics.

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  • LJames6034@aol.com
    Paul, You came to Orthodoxy via Fr. Seraphim Rose. I wish I could say as much! SCOBA includes Old Calendar sorts, like the Serbs. Moscow gave the OCA
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 28, 1999
      Paul,

      You came to Orthodoxy via Fr. Seraphim Rose. I wish I could say as much!

      SCOBA includes Old Calendar sorts, like the Serbs.

      Moscow gave the OCA "autocephaly," i.e., "self-headedness," in 1970.

      Of course the OCA (once known as the Metropolia) had been in formal schism,
      since
      1924, and had been declared tdo be in schism, since 1934. Moscow was only
      acknowleding a foregone conclusion: They had no choice.

      SCOBA, the "Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the
      Americas," is a kind of club. It does not, for example, admit Bishp Paul of
      Zaraisk, who is the KGB agent appointed Patriarchal Vicar of the Moscow
      Patriarchate in the USA.

      When questioned about this, Archbishop IAOKOVOS, who was forced to resign as
      archbishop because he signed the Ligonier Agreement (which might have united
      all those under SCOBA jurisdictions into one American Church), sent to Paul
      of Zaraisk a letter in which IAKOVOS claimed they could not admit the
      patriarchal vicar, because he is not "under a patriarch."

      IAKOVOS soon got his come-upannce, when the patriarch under whom he was
      Exarch, called him "home" to Constantinople and read him the riot act.
      IAOKVOS
      soon announced that he was retiring for reasons of "health."

      IAKOVOS's successor fared no better. He was dismissed, because Greek
      business men threatened to turn off the cash supply. Black Bart, the
      Ecumenical Patriarch, is dependent upon American cash. He did what the
      businessmen wanted, and dumped Archbishop SPYRIDON.

      It has been my experience that most Greeks would not recognize the Orthodox
      Catholic Faith, if it could rise up and bite them on the arse. Or, as my
      favorite Greek, a man who is now about 40, who was my acolyte for the four
      yeawrs he was an engineering student at Ohio University, once said: "Why
      didn't they teach us the faith?"

      My answer was: "The Greek Church in America is not here to teach the Faith.
      They are here to be an Hellenic cultural centre. They do that, very well."

      I have come to the conclusion that the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic
      Church, at least in this country, is analogous to that statement of Will
      Rogers's, when he said: "I belong to no organized political party. I'm a
      Democrat."

      As often as not, the Orthodox do not know what the Faith is. They keep it
      more in the breach than the observance. Yet, they would kill for it, or
      rather for the honor of the Faith (they do not know).

      By and large, my attitude towards the New Calendar Orthodox is analogous the
      American attitude twoards China, before Nixon came along: "What's that big
      island over there?"

      "What island?"

      Of the OCA, I have said (in print): "They are the Byzantine Rite of the
      Episcopal Church."

      Yet, despite all these unkind truths, I wish it were possible one to have to
      do with the Other Orthodox Church. As I suggested to Father Daniel Rentel,
      the OCA priest (and dean) here: "Even if we can't pray together, why can we
      not have a picnic this summer? We could still be friends!"

      Apparently, we can't be friends. That never happened.

      Aside from ROCOR, many of whose members treated the Church as a cult and
      private reserve, I cannot point to anything that I know of as the Orthodox
      Church.
      Though, to be sure, I know of individuals in the Other Orthodox Church who
      are, by my standards, true Christians. Likewise, I know some in ROCOR who
      aren't in any sense I know, however "orthodox" they may be.

      Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. "The Orthodox Church,"
      as such, may be a persistent delusion. Those who keep looking for the
      Perfect, One, True Church without spot or wrinkle, without blemish, are
      looking for what is not.


      Father Andrew
    • John Hoyle
      Father Andrew, I sympathize with the point that you are trying to make, but to abandon the ideal vision of the Church as implied by Christ is to settle for
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 3, 2000
        Father Andrew,
        I sympathize with the point that you are trying to make, but to abandon the
        ideal vision of the Church as implied by Christ is to settle for spiritual
        malaise and ecclesial mediocrity, at best. I think there is no brand of
        Orthodoxy that is free the sin of man and this is perhaps what needs to be
        discussed. What is clear to me, in my limited view of things, is that
        certain Orthodox churches more fully resonate the Truth that is Christ than
        others. This is a fact that it would be dangerous to minimize.
        -----Original Message-----
        From: fraese <fraese@...>
        To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
        Date: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:04 PM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: American Church Politics.


        >
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: <LJames6034@...>
        >To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
        >Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:16 AM
        >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: American Church Politics.
        >
        >
        >> Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. "The Orthodox
        >Church,"
        >> as such, may be a persistent delusion. Those who keep looking for the
        >> Perfect, One, True Church without spot or wrinkle, without blemish, are
        >> looking for what is not.
        >>
        >>
        >> Father Andrew
        >>
        >Father, isn't this being too cynical? Christ said, I will build my church
        >and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. (Indirect quote, sorry,
        >I don't have the reference.) This church is true, and perfect, and without
        >spot or wrinkle. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, would not
        >imperfection be also in the eye of the beholder? :)
        >Theodora (of the Prairies)
        >
        >
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      • fraese
        ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:16 AM Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: American Church
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 3, 2000
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <LJames6034@...>
          To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:16 AM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: American Church Politics.


          > Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. "The Orthodox
          Church,"
          > as such, may be a persistent delusion. Those who keep looking for the
          > Perfect, One, True Church without spot or wrinkle, without blemish, are
          > looking for what is not.
          >
          >
          > Father Andrew
          >
          Father, isn't this being too cynical? Christ said, I will build my church
          and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. (Indirect quote, sorry,
          I don't have the reference.) This church is true, and perfect, and without
          spot or wrinkle. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, would not
          imperfection be also in the eye of the beholder? :)
          Theodora (of the Prairies)
        • Mark Markish
          ... for the ... are ... Since the inception of the Orthodox Internet, people never cease to marvel how the very important truths surface through seemingly
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 4, 2000
            > > "The Orthodox Church,"
            > > as such, may be a persistent delusion. Those who keep looking
            for the
            > > Perfect, One, True Church without spot or wrinkle, without blemish,
            are
            > > looking for what is not.
            >
            > ...isn't this being too cynical? Christ said, I will build my church
            > and the gates of hell will not prevail against it...
            > This Church is true, and perfect, and without spot or wrinkle.

            Since the inception of the Orthodox Internet, people never cease to
            marvel
            how the very important truths surface through seemingly insignificant
            exchange of messages.

            Of course the Church is true, and perfect, and without spot or wrinkle,
            --
            -- even though, unfortunately, we do not live up to her beauty. If we
            forget people's imperfection (aka sin), we cannot grasp the history of
            the
            Church, from forefather Adam to December 22, 1999. As soon as we take
            it
            into account, everything makes sense.

            _Exactly_the_same_ applies to postings on this list!

            Glory be to our God.
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