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Re: [orthodox-synod] The door is open .... it's up to them

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  • gene703
    Dear father Victor, 1. Please forgive me for not using proper titles 2. The door is open .... it s up to them .... This doesn t sound too Christian to me,
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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      Dear father Victor,

      1. Please forgive me for not using proper titles
      2. The door is open .... it's up to them .... This doesn't sound too Christian to me, sounds more like a lawyer negotiating corporate merger, think love, forgivenes, ask what would Jesus do ? Why not show Moscow how true Orthodox Christian behave, here and now.

      Respectfully Yours
      Mr. T

      frvboldewskul@... wrote:
      Dear Mr. T.
      First, get a good night sleep.
      Regardless of your opinion of Patriarch Alexei, it is Vladyka Mark, and
      Vladyka Vitaly. Or Archbishop Mark and Metropolitan Vitaly. Church etiquette 101.
      As for a a reconciliation between those who abuse Vladyka Metropolitan
      Vitaly's name, it is for them to reconcile with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
      The First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad, Metropolitan Laurus, noted
      in an interview last year that the door is open to them.

      What is clear to all, the Russian Church Abroad has never, and will never,
      compromise our freedom nor compromise the interests of the Russian Church. Thus,
      should an ecclesiastical problem arise after reconciliation, our freedom and
      voice will be heard loud and clear. Let no one doubt that!

      Since dialog, now our protests actually mean something, and carry a greater
      weight of authority. Glory to God!

      Priest Victor Boldewskul
      In a message dated 2/2/05 8:48:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
      writes:

      >
      > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesru/novosti2005/markprotest.html
      >
      > Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare
      > is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
      > forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
      > two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
      > reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
      > ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
      >
      > Gene T



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    • Hristofor
      Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare ... I think you re in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact that the
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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        Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare

        >>is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
        >>forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
        >>two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
        >>reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
        >>ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
        >>
        >>Gene T
        >>
        >>
        I think you're in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact
        that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ROCOR-MP-Paris
        Exarchate, with various schisms and other divisions, Montreal, Suzdal,
        Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't enough, we have
        other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
        also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
        There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
        Witness et al also invading.

        Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
        site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
        Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
        not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
        site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
        Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
        substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
        some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
        classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
        Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
        proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
        Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
        all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
        saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
        after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
        by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
        run them out of the city?

        Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
        need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
        seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

        Hristofor



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • gene703
        Dear Hristofor, I could not agree with you more but in striving for Orthodox unitiy we got to start somewhere. Getting our own (ROCOR) house in order seems
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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          Dear Hristofor,

          I could not agree with you more but in striving for Orthodox unitiy we got to start somewhere. Getting our own (ROCOR) house in order seems like a good idea to me. Last couple of years a lot of un-Christian things were done by all sides. It seems to me that now is a very opportune time to come together and show the world some Christian behaviour for a change. Leadership can only be set by personal example.

          Your's in Christ
          Gene T

          Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:
          Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare

          >>is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
          >>forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
          >>two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
          >>reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
          >>ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
          >>
          >>Gene T
          >>
          >>
          I think you're in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact
          that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ROCOR-MP-Paris
          Exarchate, with various schisms and other divisions, Montreal, Suzdal,
          Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't enough, we have
          other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
          also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
          There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
          Witness et al also invading.

          Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
          site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
          Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
          not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
          site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
          Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
          substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
          some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
          classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
          Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
          proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
          Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
          all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
          saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
          after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
          by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
          run them out of the city?

          Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
          need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
          seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

          Hristofor



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Ray Gadke
          The SVDs are a Roman Catholic missionary order - the Society of the Divine Word - that was founded in Germany and later relocated in the Netherlands during the
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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            The SVDs are a Roman Catholic missionary order - the Society of the
            Divine Word - that was founded in Germany and later relocated in the
            Netherlands during the Kulturkampf, but remaining primarily a German
            order. The SVDs had missionaries in the pre-World War I German
            colonies in Africa and New Guinea and in the former Netherlands
            East Indies - now Indonesia, as well as in India and China. They
            have a large American foundation in Techny, northwest of Chicago.

            The two gentlemen pictured in the SVD website are Pater Arnold Janssen,
            the founder of the order, and Pater Joseph Freinademetz, a SVD missionary
            in China who was martyred. Both were recently beatified by the pope. It
            appears that Paters Janssen and Freinademetz are being invoked as
            patrons and protectors of the work of the Society of the Divine Word
            in the Slavic lands - part of the German Roman Catholic "Drang nach Osten."

            Ray Gadke



            >Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
            >site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
            >Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
            >not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
            >site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
            >Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
            >substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
            >some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
            >classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
            >Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
            >proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
            >Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
            >all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
            >saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
            >after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
            >by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
            >run them out of the city?
            >
            >Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
            >need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
            >seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.
            >
            >Hristofor
            >
          • David Constantine Wright
            ... FYI that Church is Ukrainian, not Russian. In Christ, Rd. Constantine ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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              --- Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:

              > that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ...
              > Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't

              FYI that Church is Ukrainian, not Russian.

              In Christ,
              Rd. Constantine

              =====
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              | --- http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
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            • Nicholas Steblez
              My dear brother in Christ Hristofor, Christ is in our midst! While I ve been somewhat uneasy about the whole situation regarding the ROCOR and MP, I ve tried
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                My dear brother in Christ Hristofor,



                Christ is in our midst!


                While I've been somewhat uneasy about the whole situation regarding the ROCOR and MP, I've tried to tow and even line. However, as time has passed, I have come to view the matter more and more as possibly being a terrific mistake on the part of ROCOR. More and more, it seems to me that the sheep�s clothing has been slipping off and exposing the wolf underneath. To be sure, what you write below is a serious problem, but I'm afraid that the MP is quite possibly just as great a threat as the other groups you've mentioned. Is the MP doing its best to protect its turf from these interlopers? Of course, but that doesn't mean that the MP is not as great or even a greater danger then these others.

                Your brother in Christ

                The unworthy servant of God,

                Nicholas

                Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:
                Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare

                >>is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
                >>forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
                >>two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
                >>reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
                >>ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
                >>
                >>Gene T
                >>
                >>
                I think you're in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact
                that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ROCOR-MP-Paris
                Exarchate, with various schisms and other divisions, Montreal, Suzdal,
                Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                Witness et al also invading.

                Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                run them out of the city?

                Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                Hristofor



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • antiquariu@aol.com
                In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, crocodile1953@yahoo.com weeps bitter crocodile tears: If those flavours aren t enough, we have
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                  In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  crocodile1953@... weeps bitter crocodile tears:

                  If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                  other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                  also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                  There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                  Witness et al also invading.

                  Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                  site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                  Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                  not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                  site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                  Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                  substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                  some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                  classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                  Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                  proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                  Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                  all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                  saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                  after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                  by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                  run them out of the city?

                  Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                  need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                  seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                  Hristofor




                  Dear Hristofor! Lord have mercy! Who issued you a blagodarometer?

                  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!
                  I have more than a passing familiarity with Belarus, having worked in the
                  area for quite some time and also having been on one of the first American
                  missions to Belarus as an independent country. Frankly, offering classes in
                  Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                  does not speak Belarusian. Even the President of the country (!in his own
                  words!) is uncomfortable with Belarusian, which is only now coming into its
                  own as a literary language, despite the politically correct tripe ones hears
                  about that. And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                  country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                  seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                  southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                  do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                  Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                  crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                  the past.

                  And Baranovchi? As recently as 1917, this relatively new town (founded
                  1870) was almost 100% Jewish. A Pale of Settlement creation, functioning as a
                  railroad hub. Hardly a bastion of Orthodoxy to begin with, although there was
                  one! Orthodox Church, a build-out of the chapel authorized by the Roman
                  Catholic count who owned the forest so that the Russian railroad officials would
                  have a place to pray. It was only those Godless Commies who changed the
                  nature of the town.

                  A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                  Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appelation
                  of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                  tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                  1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                  Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                  Keep smiling Hristofor. And as Helga might have said "Erstens kommt es
                  anders, zweitens als man denkt!"


                  In-Christ
                  Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs
                  Middleburg, Virginia


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/3/05 3:41:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... Dear Mr T., Should anyone, regardless of the damage they caused the Church,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                    In a message dated 2/3/05 3:41:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
                    writes:

                    > 2. The door is open .... it's up to them .... This doesn't sound too
                    > Christian to me, sounds more like a lawyer negotiating corporate merger, think
                    > love, forgivenes, ask what would Jesus do ? Why not show Moscow how true Orthodox
                    > Christian behave, here and now.
                    >
                    >

                    Dear Mr T.,
                    Should anyone, regardless of the damage they caused the Church, regardless of
                    the hatred and slander they threw at the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
                    should they repent and reconcile themselves to the Orthodox Church, yes, the door
                    is open to them. That is love in the fulness sense. They, that is those under
                    the so-called Mansonville schism, who cut themselves off of the Orthodox
                    Church and in the process, of our Lord's Grace, can still return to the Church's
                    Grace through repentance. That is love.

                    Priest Victor Boldewskul


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nicholas Steblez
                    My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs, Christ is in our midst! I m afraid you ve made a bit of a mistake. I crocodile1953@yahoo.com
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs,

                      Christ is in our midst!
                      I'm afraid you've made a bit of a mistake. I crocodile1953@... am not Hristofor. I am, rather Nicholas Steblez. I think yhour mistake is that you've selected Hristofor's post out of mine where I had included it for reference.

                      Your brother in Christ,
                      The unworthy serevant of God
                      Nicholas Steblez






                      antiquariu@... wrote:



                      In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      crocodile1953@... weeps bitter crocodile tears:

                      If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                      other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                      also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                      There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                      Witness et al also invading.

                      Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                      site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                      Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                      not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                      site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                      Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                      substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                      some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                      classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                      Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                      proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                      Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                      all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                      saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                      after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                      by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                      run them out of the city?

                      Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                      need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                      seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                      Hristofor




                      Dear Hristofor! Lord have mercy! Who issued you a blagodarometer?

                      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!
                      I have more than a passing familiarity with Belarus, having worked in the
                      area for quite some time and also having been on one of the first American
                      missions to Belarus as an independent country. Frankly, offering classes in
                      Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                      does not speak Belarusian. Even the President of the country (!in his own
                      words!) is uncomfortable with Belarusian, which is only now coming into its
                      own as a literary language, despite the politically correct tripe ones hears
                      about that. And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                      country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                      seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                      southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                      do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                      Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                      crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                      the past.

                      And Baranovchi? As recently as 1917, this relatively new town (founded
                      1870) was almost 100% Jewish. A Pale of Settlement creation, functioning as a
                      railroad hub. Hardly a bastion of Orthodoxy to begin with, although there was
                      one! Orthodox Church, a build-out of the chapel authorized by the Roman
                      Catholic count who owned the forest so that the Russian railroad officials would
                      have a place to pray. It was only those Godless Commies who changed the
                      nature of the town.

                      A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                      Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appelation
                      of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                      tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                      1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                      Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                      Keep smiling Hristofor. And as Helga might have said "Erstens kommt es
                      anders, zweitens als man denkt!"


                      In-Christ
                      Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs
                      Middleburg, Virginia


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                    • Nicholas Steblez
                      My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs, Christ is in our midst! I m afraid you ve made a bit of a mistake. I,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                        My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs,

                        Christ is in our midst!

                        I'm afraid you've made a bit of a mistake. I, crocodile1953@..., am not Hristofor and that was not my post. I am, rather Nicholas Steblez. I think your mistake is that you've selected Hristofor's post out of mine where I had included it for reference.

                        Your brother in Christ,
                        The unworthy serevant of God
                        Nicholas Steblez

                        antiquariu@... wrote:



                        In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        crocodile1953@... weeps bitter crocodile tears:

                        If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                        other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                        also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                        There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                        Witness et al also invading.

                        Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                        site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                        Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                        not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                        site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                        Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                        substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                        some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                        classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                        Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                        proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                        Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                        all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                        saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                        after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                        by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                        run them out of the city?

                        Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                        need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                        seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                        Hristofor




                        Dear Hristofor! Lord have mercy! Who issued you a blagodarometer?

                        Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!
                        I have more than a passing familiarity with Belarus, having worked in the
                        area for quite some time and also having been on one of the first American
                        missions to Belarus as an independent country. Frankly, offering classes in
                        Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                        does not speak Belarusian. Even the President of the country (!in his own
                        words!) is uncomfortable with Belarusian, which is only now coming into its
                        own as a literary language, despite the politically correct tripe ones hears
                        about that. And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                        country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                        seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                        southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                        do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                        Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                        crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                        the past.

                        And Baranovchi? As recently as 1917, this relatively new town (founded
                        1870) was almost 100% Jewish. A Pale of Settlement creation, functioning as a
                        railroad hub. Hardly a bastion of Orthodoxy to begin with, although there was
                        one! Orthodox Church, a build-out of the chapel authorized by the Roman
                        Catholic count who owned the forest so that the Russian railroad officials would
                        have a place to pray. It was only those Godless Commies who changed the
                        nature of the town.

                        A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                        Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appelation
                        of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                        tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                        1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                        Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                        Keep smiling Hristofor. And as Helga might have said "Erstens kommt es
                        anders, zweitens als man denkt!"


                        In-Christ
                        Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs
                        Middleburg, Virginia


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                      • antiquariu@aol.com
                        In a message dated 2/3/2005 10:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, crocodile1953@yahoo.com writes: My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner)
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                          In a message dated 2/3/2005 10:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          crocodile1953@... writes:

                          My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs,

                          Christ is in our midst!
                          I'm afraid you've made a bit of a mistake. I crocodile1953@... am not
                          Hristofor. I am, rather Nicholas Steblez. I think yhour mistake is that
                          you've selected Hristofor's post out of mine where I had included it for reference.

                          Your brother in Christ,
                          The unworthy serevant of God
                          Nicholas Steblez




                          My dear in-Christ Nicholas!

                          My most profuse apologies for not having done this properly. Begging your
                          forgiveness,

                          Vladimir Hindrichs
                          who also tries and is frequently wanting



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • gene703
                          Dear father Victor, In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR church. Please don t be so child like the door is open, let em come first
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 4, 2005
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                            Dear father Victor,

                            In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR church. Please don't be so child like "the door is open, let'em come first and say they are sorry then we'll play with them again" How about displaying some generocity of spirit, do I have have to remind you, a priest, about the other cheek, for Christ sake ? There is a 94 years old, infirm man surrounded by people with their own agenda in Mansonville. Shouldn't we take the first step. Offer whatever accomodation that must be made to Rosninaskaya, the "bishops" ? Where there is a will there is the way, as they say.

                            Your in Christ
                            Gene T

                            frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                            In a message dated 2/3/05 3:41:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
                            writes:

                            > 2. The door is open .... it's up to them .... This doesn't sound too
                            > Christian to me, sounds more like a lawyer negotiating corporate merger, think
                            > love, forgivenes, ask what would Jesus do ? Why not show Moscow how true Orthodox
                            > Christian behave, here and now.
                            >
                            >

                            Dear Mr T.,
                            Should anyone, regardless of the damage they caused the Church, regardless of
                            the hatred and slander they threw at the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
                            should they repent and reconcile themselves to the Orthodox Church, yes, the door
                            is open to them. That is love in the fulness sense. They, that is those under
                            the so-called Mansonville schism, who cut themselves off of the Orthodox
                            Church and in the process, of our Lord's Grace, can still return to the Church's
                            Grace through repentance. That is love.

                            Priest Victor Boldewskul


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                          • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                            Actually, many overtures have been made to the Mansonville people. Clergy as well as bishops have repeatedly attempted to visit Vladika Vitaly only to be
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 4, 2005
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                              Actually, many overtures have been made to the Mansonville
                              people. Clergy as well as bishops have repeatedly attempted
                              to visit Vladika Vitaly only to be turned away. There
                              certainly is the will but unfortunately those surrounding
                              Vladika Vitaly have not made it possible to find the way. I
                              admire much of what they stand for, but I know for a fact
                              that our clergy have been turned away and even had the
                              police called when they tried to visit. However, we indeed
                              must keep trying, hoping that eventually we can somehow
                              repair the damage and again be one with them.

                              _________________________________________________
                              Fr. Alexis Duncan
                              Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                              Atlanta, GA
                              www.orthodoxinfo.biz

                              Dear father Victor,

                              In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR
                              church. Please don't be so child like "the door is open,
                              let'em come first and say they are sorry then we'll play
                              with them again" How about displaying some generocity of
                              spirit, do I have have to remind you, a priest, about the
                              other cheek, for Christ sake ? There is a 94 years old,
                              infirm man surrounded by people with their own agenda in
                              Mansonville. Shouldn't we take the first step. Offer
                              whatever accomodation that must be made to Rosninaskaya, the
                              "bishops" ? Where there is a will there is the way, as they
                              say.

                              Your in Christ
                              Gene T
                            • Alexander A. Benzemann
                              bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 5, 2005
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                                bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why should Metropolite agree to see him ??? to bless the law suits against him ???
                                Really....

                                "Fr. Alexis Duncan" <7848@...> wrote:
                                Actually, many overtures have been made to the Mansonville
                                people. Clergy as well as bishops have repeatedly attempted
                                to visit Vladika Vitaly only to be turned away. There
                                certainly is the will but unfortunately those surrounding
                                Vladika Vitaly have not made it possible to find the way. I
                                admire much of what they stand for, but I know for a fact
                                that our clergy have been turned away and even had the
                                police called when they tried to visit. However, we indeed
                                must keep trying, hoping that eventually we can somehow
                                repair the damage and again be one with them.

                                _________________________________________________
                                Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                Atlanta, GA
                                www.orthodoxinfo.biz

                                Dear father Victor,

                                In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR
                                church. Please don't be so child like "the door is open,
                                let'em come first and say they are sorry then we'll play
                                with them again" How about displaying some generocity of
                                spirit, do I have have to remind you, a priest, about the
                                other cheek, for Christ sake ? There is a 94 years old,
                                infirm man surrounded by people with their own agenda in
                                Mansonville. Shouldn't we take the first step. Offer
                                whatever accomodation that must be made to Rosninaskaya, the
                                "bishops" ? Where there is a will there is the way, as they
                                say.

                                Your in Christ
                                Gene T





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                              • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                Tsk, tsk, tsk. That isn t true. Vladika was in Montreal for the anniversary of the cathedral there. There is enough sad news without having to make up more.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 5, 2005
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                                  Tsk, tsk, tsk. That isn't true. Vladika was in Montreal for
                                  the anniversary of the cathedral there. There is enough sad
                                  news without having to make up more.

                                  _________________________________________________
                                  Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                  Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                  Atlanta, GA
                                  www.orthodoxinfo.biz


                                  bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the
                                  law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to
                                  visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why should Metropolite
                                  agree to see him ??? to bless the law suits against him ???
                                  Really....
                                • larry most
                                  GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER DEar Theodora, Here is news that you don t really need, but Trolls are those folks that live in the lower
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 5, 2005
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                                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                    DEar Theodora,
                                    Here is news that you don't really need, but "Trolls"
                                    are those folks that live in the lower penninsula of
                                    Michigan (They live "below the bridge"), while
                                    "Yoopers" live in the upper penninsula (above the
                                    bridge). Now aren't you glad that I took up your time
                                    with that knowledge.
                                    Love in Christ,
                                    Sub-deacon Lawrence
                                    --- Theodora Wright <theomtn@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Why this site? Are you saying that the post you are
                                    > replying to is a troll?
                                    > Or that you are a troll?
                                    >
                                    > Theodora in The Mountains
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ............................................................................
                                    > .........................................
                                    >
                                    > From: "aprmih" <aprmih@...>
                                    > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:27 AM
                                    > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Thank God looks like
                                    > this nightmare is over
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • vkozyreff
                                    Dear Father Alexis, bless. I do not understand this discussion. It is open knowledge that the Synod is suing Vl Vitaly, under the administrative leadership of
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 6, 2005
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                                      Dear Father Alexis, bless.

                                      I do not understand this discussion.

                                      It is open knowledge that the Synod is suing Vl Vitaly, under the
                                      administrative leadership of Vl Gavriil. Whether or not Vl Gavriil
                                      went to Montreal this time for an anniversary is irrelevant

                                      Some time ago, a visit to Mansonville by a delegation from the Synod
                                      headed by Vl Michael ended up in a regrettable fashion. The lack of
                                      trust for visits from the Synod to Mansonville is understandable.

                                      As regards the last attempt by Vl Gavriil to see Vl Vitaly, nobody
                                      disputes the fact that Vl Gavriil did not even contact Vl Vitaly in
                                      advance to announce his coming to visit him.

                                      I am told that Vl Gavriil was suggested to call Vl Vitaly from a
                                      nearby public telephone so the latter could decide whether or not he
                                      was ready to receive his visitors. Instead, the party took pictures
                                      and went away.

                                      In God,

                                      Vladimir Kozyreff






                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexis Duncan"
                                      <7848@a...> wrote:
                                      > Tsk, tsk, tsk. That isn't true. Vladika was in Montreal for
                                      > the anniversary of the cathedral there. There is enough sad
                                      > news without having to make up more.
                                      >
                                      > _________________________________________________
                                      > Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                      > Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                      > Atlanta, GA
                                      > www.orthodoxinfo.biz
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the
                                      > law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to
                                      > visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why should Metropolite
                                      > agree to see him ??? to bless the law suits against him ???
                                      > Really....
                                    • Hristofor
                                      ... That s debatable, I suppose. The defrocked Met Philaret *was* in the Moscow Patriarchate to begin with prior to forming his own church . ... And where to
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 8, 2005
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                                        Replies to 3 different posts:


                                        >FYI that Church is Ukrainian, not Russian.
                                        >In Christ,
                                        >Rd. Constantine

                                        That's debatable, I suppose. The defrocked Met Philaret *was* in the
                                        Moscow Patriarchate to begin with prior to forming his own "church".

                                        gene703 �����:

                                        >I could not agree with you more but in striving for Orthodox unitiy we got to start somewhere. Getting our own (ROCOR) house in order seems like a good idea to me. Last couple of years a lot of un-Christian things were done by all sides. It seems to me that now is a very opportune time to come together and show the world some Christian behaviour for a change. Leadership can only be set by personal example.
                                        >
                                        And where to we start? Do we start with the Evlogians, then the
                                        Metropolia, and then the French? Or do we work backwards
                                        chronologically? Believe me, I am not trying to be facetious. Since the
                                        majority of Russians both in the diaspora or in Russia are members of
                                        the ROCA and the MP, that seems to be the most logical. I know someone
                                        who pleaded with then Vl Varnava not to leave--at least wait until some
                                        form of unity did occur (which it still hasn't). Of course he refused.
                                        Was that not not like others who have left before in the 80s, saying
                                        that they did not like "the course ROCA was taking"?

                                        antiquariu@... �����:

                                        >Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!

                                        Hardly would consider myself paranoid. If you believe that the Catechism
                                        College in Baranovichi operates solely to minister to the Catholics of
                                        Belarus you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I
                                        respectfully disagree.

                                        > Frankly, offering classes in Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                                        >does not speak Belarusian. <..> And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                                        >country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                                        >seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                                        >southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                                        >do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                                        >Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                                        >crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                                        >the past.

                                        I have been to Belarus many, many times. I have more (known) relatives there than in Russia or the US. Although my grandfather was born there, he considered himself to be Russian. And yes, I agree, there are a lot of Catholics and it is only by the Grace of God that my ancestors either remained Orthodox or converted to Orthodoxy. I have met Catholics from Belarus, but they all considered themselves to be ethnic Poles.

                                        >A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                                        >Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appellation
                                        >of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                                        >tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                                        >1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                                        >Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                                        I realize that and I certainly don't want to get into Ukrainian-Belorussian-Russian polemics on this list. However, what would the response be *if* the MP opened up a church of Our Lady of Chenstohova in Warsaw or a parish of St Patrick in Dublin? Might the locals not be a little bent out of shape? Remember the opposition to the MP building a church in Rome which is dedicated to St Catherine (and *not* St Ambrose of Milan). Furthermore the overwhelming majority of Catholic churches are dedicated to Our Lord, the Theotokos, Feasts and major saints (i.e St George, St Anne, St Elizabeth, the Evangelists, St Francis etc). How many "RC churches of St Olga" have you driven past in the US?

                                        Hristofor




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