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Re: [orthodox-synod] Thank God looks like this nightmare is over

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  • Nicholas Steblez
    A big Amen! to that (more or less). Oh for the joyous day when this whole nightmare truly is behind us. How fortunate that Alexy II couldn t take the pressure
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 2, 2005
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      A big Amen! to that (more or less). Oh for the joyous day when this whole nightmare truly is behind us. How fortunate that Alexy II couldn't take the pressure of putting on the brotherhood act any longer and showed his true colors. I'm so happy I won't even mention once that "we told you so." Golly, I might actually sleep well tonight.

      Nicholas


      gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:

      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesru/novosti2005/markprotest.html

      Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.

      Gene T


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    • Alex Cvejkus
      Bless Father! Upon reading your post, a huge smile smile spread across my face. Thank you for having the courage to speak the truth! I could not possibly
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Bless Father!

        Upon reading your post, a huge smile smile spread across my face. Thank you for having the courage to speak the truth! I could not possibly think of a better way to say what you said. Slava Bogy, but it is good to hear the truth!
        Alexandr

        frvboldewskul@... wrote:
        Dear Mr. T.
        First, get a good night sleep.
        Regardless of your opinion of Patriarch Alexei, it is Vladyka Mark, and
        Vladyka Vitaly. Or Archbishop Mark and Metropolitan Vitaly. Church etiquette 101.
        As for a a reconciliation between those who abuse Vladyka Metropolitan
        Vitaly's name, it is for them to reconcile with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
        The First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad, Metropolitan Laurus, noted
        in an interview last year that the door is open to them.

        What is clear to all, the Russian Church Abroad has never, and will never,
        compromise our freedom nor compromise the interests of the Russian Church. Thus,
        should an ecclesiastical problem arise after reconciliation, our freedom and
        voice will be heard loud and clear. Let no one doubt that!

        Since dialog, now our protests actually mean something, and carry a greater
        weight of authority. Glory to God!

        Priest Victor Boldewskul
        In a message dated 2/2/05 8:48:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
        writes:

        >
        > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesru/novosti2005/markprotest.html
        >
        > Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare
        > is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
        > forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
        > two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
        > reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
        > ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
        >
        > Gene T



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      • gene703
        Dear father Victor, 1. Please forgive me for not using proper titles 2. The door is open .... it s up to them .... This doesn t sound too Christian to me,
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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          Dear father Victor,

          1. Please forgive me for not using proper titles
          2. The door is open .... it's up to them .... This doesn't sound too Christian to me, sounds more like a lawyer negotiating corporate merger, think love, forgivenes, ask what would Jesus do ? Why not show Moscow how true Orthodox Christian behave, here and now.

          Respectfully Yours
          Mr. T

          frvboldewskul@... wrote:
          Dear Mr. T.
          First, get a good night sleep.
          Regardless of your opinion of Patriarch Alexei, it is Vladyka Mark, and
          Vladyka Vitaly. Or Archbishop Mark and Metropolitan Vitaly. Church etiquette 101.
          As for a a reconciliation between those who abuse Vladyka Metropolitan
          Vitaly's name, it is for them to reconcile with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
          The First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad, Metropolitan Laurus, noted
          in an interview last year that the door is open to them.

          What is clear to all, the Russian Church Abroad has never, and will never,
          compromise our freedom nor compromise the interests of the Russian Church. Thus,
          should an ecclesiastical problem arise after reconciliation, our freedom and
          voice will be heard loud and clear. Let no one doubt that!

          Since dialog, now our protests actually mean something, and carry a greater
          weight of authority. Glory to God!

          Priest Victor Boldewskul
          In a message dated 2/2/05 8:48:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
          writes:

          >
          > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesru/novosti2005/markprotest.html
          >
          > Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare
          > is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
          > forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
          > two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
          > reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
          > ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
          >
          > Gene T



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • aprmih
          http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html ... http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesru/novosti2005 /markprotest.html ... nightmare is
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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            http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html



            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesru/novosti2005
            /markprotest.html
            >
            > Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation
            nightmare is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville
            and asked for forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now.
            There is nothing wrong with having two Metropolitans, one acting one
            retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and reconciles with Synod there
            will be no need to mention this horrible episode ever again. Please
            pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
            >
            > Gene T
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Theodora Wright
            Why this site? Are you saying that the post you are replying to is a troll? Or that you are a troll? Theodora in The Mountains
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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              Why this site? Are you saying that the post you are replying to is a troll?
              Or that you are a troll?

              Theodora in The Mountains

              ............................................................................
              .........................................

              From: "aprmih" <aprmih@...>
              To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:27 AM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Thank God looks like this nightmare is over


              >
              >
              > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html
              >
            • Hristofor
              Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare ... I think you re in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact that the
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare

                >>is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
                >>forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
                >>two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
                >>reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
                >>ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
                >>
                >>Gene T
                >>
                >>
                I think you're in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact
                that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ROCOR-MP-Paris
                Exarchate, with various schisms and other divisions, Montreal, Suzdal,
                Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                Witness et al also invading.

                Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                run them out of the city?

                Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                Hristofor



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gene703
                Dear Hristofor, I could not agree with you more but in striving for Orthodox unitiy we got to start somewhere. Getting our own (ROCOR) house in order seems
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                  Dear Hristofor,

                  I could not agree with you more but in striving for Orthodox unitiy we got to start somewhere. Getting our own (ROCOR) house in order seems like a good idea to me. Last couple of years a lot of un-Christian things were done by all sides. It seems to me that now is a very opportune time to come together and show the world some Christian behaviour for a change. Leadership can only be set by personal example.

                  Your's in Christ
                  Gene T

                  Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:
                  Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare

                  >>is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
                  >>forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
                  >>two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
                  >>reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
                  >>ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
                  >>
                  >>Gene T
                  >>
                  >>
                  I think you're in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact
                  that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ROCOR-MP-Paris
                  Exarchate, with various schisms and other divisions, Montreal, Suzdal,
                  Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                  other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                  also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                  There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                  Witness et al also invading.

                  Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                  site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                  Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                  not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                  site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                  Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                  substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                  some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                  classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                  Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                  proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                  Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                  all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                  saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                  after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                  by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                  run them out of the city?

                  Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                  need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                  seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                  Hristofor



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                • Ray Gadke
                  The SVDs are a Roman Catholic missionary order - the Society of the Divine Word - that was founded in Germany and later relocated in the Netherlands during the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                    The SVDs are a Roman Catholic missionary order - the Society of the
                    Divine Word - that was founded in Germany and later relocated in the
                    Netherlands during the Kulturkampf, but remaining primarily a German
                    order. The SVDs had missionaries in the pre-World War I German
                    colonies in Africa and New Guinea and in the former Netherlands
                    East Indies - now Indonesia, as well as in India and China. They
                    have a large American foundation in Techny, northwest of Chicago.

                    The two gentlemen pictured in the SVD website are Pater Arnold Janssen,
                    the founder of the order, and Pater Joseph Freinademetz, a SVD missionary
                    in China who was martyred. Both were recently beatified by the pope. It
                    appears that Paters Janssen and Freinademetz are being invoked as
                    patrons and protectors of the work of the Society of the Divine Word
                    in the Slavic lands - part of the German Roman Catholic "Drang nach Osten."

                    Ray Gadke



                    >Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                    >site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                    >Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                    >not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                    >site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                    >Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                    >substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                    >some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                    >classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                    >Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                    >proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                    >Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                    >all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                    >saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                    >after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                    >by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                    >run them out of the city?
                    >
                    >Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                    >need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                    >seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.
                    >
                    >Hristofor
                    >
                  • David Constantine Wright
                    ... FYI that Church is Ukrainian, not Russian. In Christ, Rd. Constantine ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                      --- Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:

                      > that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ...
                      > Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't

                      FYI that Church is Ukrainian, not Russian.

                      In Christ,
                      Rd. Constantine

                      =====
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                      | --- http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
                      | Traditional Orthodox Christian |
                      | --- http://www.new-ostrog.org/paper1.html |
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                    • Nicholas Steblez
                      My dear brother in Christ Hristofor, Christ is in our midst! While I ve been somewhat uneasy about the whole situation regarding the ROCOR and MP, I ve tried
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                        My dear brother in Christ Hristofor,



                        Christ is in our midst!


                        While I've been somewhat uneasy about the whole situation regarding the ROCOR and MP, I've tried to tow and even line. However, as time has passed, I have come to view the matter more and more as possibly being a terrific mistake on the part of ROCOR. More and more, it seems to me that the sheep�s clothing has been slipping off and exposing the wolf underneath. To be sure, what you write below is a serious problem, but I'm afraid that the MP is quite possibly just as great a threat as the other groups you've mentioned. Is the MP doing its best to protect its turf from these interlopers? Of course, but that doesn't mean that the MP is not as great or even a greater danger then these others.

                        Your brother in Christ

                        The unworthy servant of God,

                        Nicholas

                        Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:
                        Alexei misspoke, Mark saw the light. The MP/ROCOR reconciliation nightmare

                        >>is over. It's high time entire Synod went to Mansonville and asked for
                        >>forgivness on their knees. Bring Vitaly back now. There is nothing wrong with having
                        >>two Metropolitans, one acting one retired "na pokoe". If he forgives and
                        >>reconciles with Synod there will be no need to mention this horrible episode
                        >>ever again. Please pray with me for speedy ROCOR(L) ROCOR(V) reconciliation.
                        >>
                        >>Gene T
                        >>
                        >>
                        I think you're in the wrong nightmare. The real nightmare is the fact
                        that the Russian Orthodox Church is divided into ROCOR-MP-Paris
                        Exarchate, with various schisms and other divisions, Montreal, Suzdal,
                        Denisenko to name but a few. If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                        other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                        also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                        There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                        Witness et al also invading.

                        Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                        site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                        Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                        not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                        site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                        Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                        substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                        some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                        classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                        Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                        proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                        Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                        all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                        saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                        after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                        by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                        run them out of the city?

                        Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                        need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                        seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                        Hristofor



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                      • antiquariu@aol.com
                        In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, crocodile1953@yahoo.com weeps bitter crocodile tears: If those flavours aren t enough, we have
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
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                          In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          crocodile1953@... weeps bitter crocodile tears:

                          If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                          other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                          also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                          There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                          Witness et al also invading.

                          Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                          site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                          Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                          not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                          site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                          Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                          substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                          some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                          classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                          Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                          proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                          Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                          all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                          saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                          after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                          by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                          run them out of the city?

                          Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                          need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                          seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                          Hristofor




                          Dear Hristofor! Lord have mercy! Who issued you a blagodarometer?

                          Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!
                          I have more than a passing familiarity with Belarus, having worked in the
                          area for quite some time and also having been on one of the first American
                          missions to Belarus as an independent country. Frankly, offering classes in
                          Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                          does not speak Belarusian. Even the President of the country (!in his own
                          words!) is uncomfortable with Belarusian, which is only now coming into its
                          own as a literary language, despite the politically correct tripe ones hears
                          about that. And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                          country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                          seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                          southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                          do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                          Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                          crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                          the past.

                          And Baranovchi? As recently as 1917, this relatively new town (founded
                          1870) was almost 100% Jewish. A Pale of Settlement creation, functioning as a
                          railroad hub. Hardly a bastion of Orthodoxy to begin with, although there was
                          one! Orthodox Church, a build-out of the chapel authorized by the Roman
                          Catholic count who owned the forest so that the Russian railroad officials would
                          have a place to pray. It was only those Godless Commies who changed the
                          nature of the town.

                          A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                          Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appelation
                          of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                          tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                          1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                          Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                          Keep smiling Hristofor. And as Helga might have said "Erstens kommt es
                          anders, zweitens als man denkt!"


                          In-Christ
                          Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs
                          Middleburg, Virginia


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                          In a message dated 2/3/05 3:41:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... Dear Mr T., Should anyone, regardless of the damage they caused the Church,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 2/3/05 3:41:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
                            writes:

                            > 2. The door is open .... it's up to them .... This doesn't sound too
                            > Christian to me, sounds more like a lawyer negotiating corporate merger, think
                            > love, forgivenes, ask what would Jesus do ? Why not show Moscow how true Orthodox
                            > Christian behave, here and now.
                            >
                            >

                            Dear Mr T.,
                            Should anyone, regardless of the damage they caused the Church, regardless of
                            the hatred and slander they threw at the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
                            should they repent and reconcile themselves to the Orthodox Church, yes, the door
                            is open to them. That is love in the fulness sense. They, that is those under
                            the so-called Mansonville schism, who cut themselves off of the Orthodox
                            Church and in the process, of our Lord's Grace, can still return to the Church's
                            Grace through repentance. That is love.

                            Priest Victor Boldewskul


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Nicholas Steblez
                            My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs, Christ is in our midst! I m afraid you ve made a bit of a mistake. I crocodile1953@yahoo.com
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs,

                              Christ is in our midst!
                              I'm afraid you've made a bit of a mistake. I crocodile1953@... am not Hristofor. I am, rather Nicholas Steblez. I think yhour mistake is that you've selected Hristofor's post out of mine where I had included it for reference.

                              Your brother in Christ,
                              The unworthy serevant of God
                              Nicholas Steblez






                              antiquariu@... wrote:



                              In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              crocodile1953@... weeps bitter crocodile tears:

                              If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                              other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                              also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                              There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                              Witness et al also invading.

                              Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                              site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                              Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                              not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                              site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                              Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                              substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                              some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                              classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                              Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                              proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                              Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                              all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                              saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                              after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                              by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                              run them out of the city?

                              Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                              need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                              seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                              Hristofor




                              Dear Hristofor! Lord have mercy! Who issued you a blagodarometer?

                              Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!
                              I have more than a passing familiarity with Belarus, having worked in the
                              area for quite some time and also having been on one of the first American
                              missions to Belarus as an independent country. Frankly, offering classes in
                              Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                              does not speak Belarusian. Even the President of the country (!in his own
                              words!) is uncomfortable with Belarusian, which is only now coming into its
                              own as a literary language, despite the politically correct tripe ones hears
                              about that. And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                              country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                              seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                              southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                              do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                              Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                              crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                              the past.

                              And Baranovchi? As recently as 1917, this relatively new town (founded
                              1870) was almost 100% Jewish. A Pale of Settlement creation, functioning as a
                              railroad hub. Hardly a bastion of Orthodoxy to begin with, although there was
                              one! Orthodox Church, a build-out of the chapel authorized by the Roman
                              Catholic count who owned the forest so that the Russian railroad officials would
                              have a place to pray. It was only those Godless Commies who changed the
                              nature of the town.

                              A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                              Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appelation
                              of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                              tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                              1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                              Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                              Keep smiling Hristofor. And as Helga might have said "Erstens kommt es
                              anders, zweitens als man denkt!"


                              In-Christ
                              Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs
                              Middleburg, Virginia


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                            • Nicholas Steblez
                              My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs, Christ is in our midst! I m afraid you ve made a bit of a mistake. I,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs,

                                Christ is in our midst!

                                I'm afraid you've made a bit of a mistake. I, crocodile1953@..., am not Hristofor and that was not my post. I am, rather Nicholas Steblez. I think your mistake is that you've selected Hristofor's post out of mine where I had included it for reference.

                                Your brother in Christ,
                                The unworthy serevant of God
                                Nicholas Steblez

                                antiquariu@... wrote:



                                In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:59:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                crocodile1953@... weeps bitter crocodile tears:

                                If those flavours aren't enough, we have
                                other Orthodox jurisdictions such as both new and old calendar Greeks
                                also trying to get in on the act. This of course is only the Orthodox.
                                There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovahs
                                Witness et al also invading.

                                Yesterday I was looking for a zhitija on the net and I stumbled on a
                                site (http://svd.org.ru/start/index.php) which at first appeared to be
                                Baptist (judging by the logo), but I realized that it was RC. If you are
                                not Orthodox, you may not even realize that you are on an non-Orthodox
                                site. The first article was about a "Catechism College" in Baranovichi,
                                Belarus, where classes are conducted/* in Russian*/. Belarus has a
                                substantial RC population, which is made up mostly of ethnic Poles and
                                some Belorussians. One would think that this College would be conducting
                                classes in Polish or possibly Belorussian , but since Poles are already
                                Catholic and are not in need of R/C catechism, whom better to
                                proselityze among than Russians? I was then shocked to click on the
                                Moscow link and see that the RC church in Moscow is named St Olga. Of
                                all the RC saints they could have chosen, they had to pick a Russian
                                saint? How sneaky and perfidious. Why didn't they name their church
                                after one of their "martyrs," whom they believe to have been "martyred"
                                by the Orthodox? Or were they afraid that the Orthodox of Moscow would
                                run them out of the city?

                                Everyone who thinks that they have the "real and untarnished" Orthodoxy
                                need to get their heads out of the sand and face the reality and
                                seriousness of the situation as it is today in Russia.

                                Hristofor




                                Dear Hristofor! Lord have mercy! Who issued you a blagodarometer?

                                Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!
                                I have more than a passing familiarity with Belarus, having worked in the
                                area for quite some time and also having been on one of the first American
                                missions to Belarus as an independent country. Frankly, offering classes in
                                Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                                does not speak Belarusian. Even the President of the country (!in his own
                                words!) is uncomfortable with Belarusian, which is only now coming into its
                                own as a literary language, despite the politically correct tripe ones hears
                                about that. And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                                country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                                seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                                southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                                do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                                Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                                crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                                the past.

                                And Baranovchi? As recently as 1917, this relatively new town (founded
                                1870) was almost 100% Jewish. A Pale of Settlement creation, functioning as a
                                railroad hub. Hardly a bastion of Orthodoxy to begin with, although there was
                                one! Orthodox Church, a build-out of the chapel authorized by the Roman
                                Catholic count who owned the forest so that the Russian railroad officials would
                                have a place to pray. It was only those Godless Commies who changed the
                                nature of the town.

                                A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                                Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appelation
                                of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                                tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                                1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                                Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                                Keep smiling Hristofor. And as Helga might have said "Erstens kommt es
                                anders, zweitens als man denkt!"


                                In-Christ
                                Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs
                                Middleburg, Virginia


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • antiquariu@aol.com
                                In a message dated 2/3/2005 10:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, crocodile1953@yahoo.com writes: My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner)
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 3, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 2/3/2005 10:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                  crocodile1953@... writes:

                                  My dear brother in Christ Vladimir (Werner) Saemmler-Hindrichs,

                                  Christ is in our midst!
                                  I'm afraid you've made a bit of a mistake. I crocodile1953@... am not
                                  Hristofor. I am, rather Nicholas Steblez. I think yhour mistake is that
                                  you've selected Hristofor's post out of mine where I had included it for reference.

                                  Your brother in Christ,
                                  The unworthy serevant of God
                                  Nicholas Steblez




                                  My dear in-Christ Nicholas!

                                  My most profuse apologies for not having done this properly. Begging your
                                  forgiveness,

                                  Vladimir Hindrichs
                                  who also tries and is frequently wanting



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • gene703
                                  Dear father Victor, In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR church. Please don t be so child like the door is open, let em come first
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear father Victor,

                                    In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR church. Please don't be so child like "the door is open, let'em come first and say they are sorry then we'll play with them again" How about displaying some generocity of spirit, do I have have to remind you, a priest, about the other cheek, for Christ sake ? There is a 94 years old, infirm man surrounded by people with their own agenda in Mansonville. Shouldn't we take the first step. Offer whatever accomodation that must be made to Rosninaskaya, the "bishops" ? Where there is a will there is the way, as they say.

                                    Your in Christ
                                    Gene T

                                    frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                                    In a message dated 2/3/05 3:41:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, gene703@...
                                    writes:

                                    > 2. The door is open .... it's up to them .... This doesn't sound too
                                    > Christian to me, sounds more like a lawyer negotiating corporate merger, think
                                    > love, forgivenes, ask what would Jesus do ? Why not show Moscow how true Orthodox
                                    > Christian behave, here and now.
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Dear Mr T.,
                                    Should anyone, regardless of the damage they caused the Church, regardless of
                                    the hatred and slander they threw at the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
                                    should they repent and reconcile themselves to the Orthodox Church, yes, the door
                                    is open to them. That is love in the fulness sense. They, that is those under
                                    the so-called Mansonville schism, who cut themselves off of the Orthodox
                                    Church and in the process, of our Lord's Grace, can still return to the Church's
                                    Grace through repentance. That is love.

                                    Priest Victor Boldewskul


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                    Actually, many overtures have been made to the Mansonville people. Clergy as well as bishops have repeatedly attempted to visit Vladika Vitaly only to be
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 4, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Actually, many overtures have been made to the Mansonville
                                      people. Clergy as well as bishops have repeatedly attempted
                                      to visit Vladika Vitaly only to be turned away. There
                                      certainly is the will but unfortunately those surrounding
                                      Vladika Vitaly have not made it possible to find the way. I
                                      admire much of what they stand for, but I know for a fact
                                      that our clergy have been turned away and even had the
                                      police called when they tried to visit. However, we indeed
                                      must keep trying, hoping that eventually we can somehow
                                      repair the damage and again be one with them.

                                      _________________________________________________
                                      Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                      Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                      Atlanta, GA
                                      www.orthodoxinfo.biz

                                      Dear father Victor,

                                      In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR
                                      church. Please don't be so child like "the door is open,
                                      let'em come first and say they are sorry then we'll play
                                      with them again" How about displaying some generocity of
                                      spirit, do I have have to remind you, a priest, about the
                                      other cheek, for Christ sake ? There is a 94 years old,
                                      infirm man surrounded by people with their own agenda in
                                      Mansonville. Shouldn't we take the first step. Offer
                                      whatever accomodation that must be made to Rosninaskaya, the
                                      "bishops" ? Where there is a will there is the way, as they
                                      say.

                                      Your in Christ
                                      Gene T
                                    • Alexander A. Benzemann
                                      bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 5, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why should Metropolite agree to see him ??? to bless the law suits against him ???
                                        Really....

                                        "Fr. Alexis Duncan" <7848@...> wrote:
                                        Actually, many overtures have been made to the Mansonville
                                        people. Clergy as well as bishops have repeatedly attempted
                                        to visit Vladika Vitaly only to be turned away. There
                                        certainly is the will but unfortunately those surrounding
                                        Vladika Vitaly have not made it possible to find the way. I
                                        admire much of what they stand for, but I know for a fact
                                        that our clergy have been turned away and even had the
                                        police called when they tried to visit. However, we indeed
                                        must keep trying, hoping that eventually we can somehow
                                        repair the damage and again be one with them.

                                        _________________________________________________
                                        Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                        Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                        Atlanta, GA
                                        www.orthodoxinfo.biz

                                        Dear father Victor,

                                        In all fairness I think BOTH sides did lots of damage to OUR
                                        church. Please don't be so child like "the door is open,
                                        let'em come first and say they are sorry then we'll play
                                        with them again" How about displaying some generocity of
                                        spirit, do I have have to remind you, a priest, about the
                                        other cheek, for Christ sake ? There is a 94 years old,
                                        infirm man surrounded by people with their own agenda in
                                        Mansonville. Shouldn't we take the first step. Offer
                                        whatever accomodation that must be made to Rosninaskaya, the
                                        "bishops" ? Where there is a will there is the way, as they
                                        say.

                                        Your in Christ
                                        Gene T





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                                      • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                        Tsk, tsk, tsk. That isn t true. Vladika was in Montreal for the anniversary of the cathedral there. There is enough sad news without having to make up more.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 5, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Tsk, tsk, tsk. That isn't true. Vladika was in Montreal for
                                          the anniversary of the cathedral there. There is enough sad
                                          news without having to make up more.

                                          _________________________________________________
                                          Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                          Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                          Atlanta, GA
                                          www.orthodoxinfo.biz


                                          bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the
                                          law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to
                                          visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why should Metropolite
                                          agree to see him ??? to bless the law suits against him ???
                                          Really....
                                        • larry most
                                          GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER DEar Theodora, Here is news that you don t really need, but Trolls are those folks that live in the lower
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 5, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                            DEar Theodora,
                                            Here is news that you don't really need, but "Trolls"
                                            are those folks that live in the lower penninsula of
                                            Michigan (They live "below the bridge"), while
                                            "Yoopers" live in the upper penninsula (above the
                                            bridge). Now aren't you glad that I took up your time
                                            with that knowledge.
                                            Love in Christ,
                                            Sub-deacon Lawrence
                                            --- Theodora Wright <theomtn@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Why this site? Are you saying that the post you are
                                            > replying to is a troll?
                                            > Or that you are a troll?
                                            >
                                            > Theodora in The Mountains
                                            >
                                            >
                                            ............................................................................
                                            > .........................................
                                            >
                                            > From: "aprmih" <aprmih@...>
                                            > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:27 AM
                                            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Thank God looks like
                                            > this nightmare is over
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            > --------------------~-->
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                                            > It is easier than you think.
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                                          • vkozyreff
                                            Dear Father Alexis, bless. I do not understand this discussion. It is open knowledge that the Synod is suing Vl Vitaly, under the administrative leadership of
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 6, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear Father Alexis, bless.

                                              I do not understand this discussion.

                                              It is open knowledge that the Synod is suing Vl Vitaly, under the
                                              administrative leadership of Vl Gavriil. Whether or not Vl Gavriil
                                              went to Montreal this time for an anniversary is irrelevant

                                              Some time ago, a visit to Mansonville by a delegation from the Synod
                                              headed by Vl Michael ended up in a regrettable fashion. The lack of
                                              trust for visits from the Synod to Mansonville is understandable.

                                              As regards the last attempt by Vl Gavriil to see Vl Vitaly, nobody
                                              disputes the fact that Vl Gavriil did not even contact Vl Vitaly in
                                              advance to announce his coming to visit him.

                                              I am told that Vl Gavriil was suggested to call Vl Vitaly from a
                                              nearby public telephone so the latter could decide whether or not he
                                              was ready to receive his visitors. Instead, the party took pictures
                                              and went away.

                                              In God,

                                              Vladimir Kozyreff






                                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexis Duncan"
                                              <7848@a...> wrote:
                                              > Tsk, tsk, tsk. That isn't true. Vladika was in Montreal for
                                              > the anniversary of the cathedral there. There is enough sad
                                              > news without having to make up more.
                                              >
                                              > _________________________________________________
                                              > Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                              > Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                              > Atlanta, GA
                                              > www.orthodoxinfo.biz
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > bishop Gabriel went to Montreal to testify in court in the
                                              > law suits fighting Metropolite Vitaly and then tried to
                                              > visit the Metropolite in Mansonville. Why should Metropolite
                                              > agree to see him ??? to bless the law suits against him ???
                                              > Really....
                                            • Hristofor
                                              ... That s debatable, I suppose. The defrocked Met Philaret *was* in the Moscow Patriarchate to begin with prior to forming his own church . ... And where to
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 8, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Replies to 3 different posts:


                                                >FYI that Church is Ukrainian, not Russian.
                                                >In Christ,
                                                >Rd. Constantine

                                                That's debatable, I suppose. The defrocked Met Philaret *was* in the
                                                Moscow Patriarchate to begin with prior to forming his own "church".

                                                gene703 �����:

                                                >I could not agree with you more but in striving for Orthodox unitiy we got to start somewhere. Getting our own (ROCOR) house in order seems like a good idea to me. Last couple of years a lot of un-Christian things were done by all sides. It seems to me that now is a very opportune time to come together and show the world some Christian behaviour for a change. Leadership can only be set by personal example.
                                                >
                                                And where to we start? Do we start with the Evlogians, then the
                                                Metropolia, and then the French? Or do we work backwards
                                                chronologically? Believe me, I am not trying to be facetious. Since the
                                                majority of Russians both in the diaspora or in Russia are members of
                                                the ROCA and the MP, that seems to be the most logical. I know someone
                                                who pleaded with then Vl Varnava not to leave--at least wait until some
                                                form of unity did occur (which it still hasn't). Of course he refused.
                                                Was that not not like others who have left before in the 80s, saying
                                                that they did not like "the course ROCA was taking"?

                                                antiquariu@... �����:

                                                >Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you!

                                                Hardly would consider myself paranoid. If you believe that the Catechism
                                                College in Baranovichi operates solely to minister to the Catholics of
                                                Belarus you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I
                                                respectfully disagree.

                                                > Frankly, offering classes in Russian isn't surprising at all, since the vast majority of the urban population
                                                >does not speak Belarusian. <..> And you are right! There are a lot of Roman Catholics in that
                                                >country. Matter of fact, it's probably the majority of the population. You
                                                >seem to forget that the northern Unia (Brest) took place there, even before the
                                                >southern one. Folks get thrown off by the morpheme Rus. It has nothing to
                                                >do with Russian. Belarus has more ethnic affinity with the Polish-Lithuanian
                                                >Commonwealth than with Russia per se; both countries even have mirror image
                                                >crests, the Vitas of the very Roman Catholic Knights Orders of a millenium in
                                                >the past.

                                                I have been to Belarus many, many times. I have more (known) relatives there than in Russia or the US. Although my grandfather was born there, he considered himself to be Russian. And yes, I agree, there are a lot of Catholics and it is only by the Grace of God that my ancestors either remained Orthodox or converted to Orthodoxy. I have met Catholics from Belarus, but they all considered themselves to be ethnic Poles.

                                                >A far as the grandma of my patron saint is concerned, there are a lot of
                                                >Ukrainians -- and a lot of Roman Catholics -- who would dispute the appellation
                                                >of her being Russian. The Viking princess Helga unwittingly started a long
                                                >tradition of Germanic-blooded royalty, a tradition maintained until at least
                                                >1917! This is not a troll. The name Olga is almost as common in Roman
                                                >Catholic circles as in Russian ones.

                                                I realize that and I certainly don't want to get into Ukrainian-Belorussian-Russian polemics on this list. However, what would the response be *if* the MP opened up a church of Our Lady of Chenstohova in Warsaw or a parish of St Patrick in Dublin? Might the locals not be a little bent out of shape? Remember the opposition to the MP building a church in Rome which is dedicated to St Catherine (and *not* St Ambrose of Milan). Furthermore the overwhelming majority of Catholic churches are dedicated to Our Lord, the Theotokos, Feasts and major saints (i.e St George, St Anne, St Elizabeth, the Evangelists, St Francis etc). How many "RC churches of St Olga" have you driven past in the US?

                                                Hristofor




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