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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Church services in St. Petersburg

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  • vjb
    Vladimir, ... You may not accept a term from a dictionary. However, you must come with your own clear definition as an alternative. I do not how to say it but
    Message 1 of 36 , Feb 2, 2005
      Vladimir,

      >As music is the expression of a civilisation that we accept or
      >reject, dictionaries are productions of a civilisation that we accept
      >or reject.

      You may not accept a term from a dictionary. However, you must come with your own clear definition as an alternative. "I do not how to say it but I know what I know" is not a good argument, Vladimir. So far, everything you mentioned fit well under the dictionary terms.

      >Your resorting to an American dictionary shows only that
      >you belong to the corresponding current of thinking.

      Perhaps, you did not notice that the language of our discussion is English. American Heritage Dictionary is a very reputable source. If AHD is not a good enough for you let's try Webster's and Britannica:

      Britannica (1): nationality 5a (2): a politically organized nationality b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c: a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usu. characterized by relatively large size and independent status 2 archaic: group, aggregation 3: a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians).

      The entry in Webster's is identical to the one in Britannica.

      >In classical
      >Russian literature, a character emigrating to America, symbolises his
      >losing his soul.

      Hmm... What does that mean, Vladimir? Most of the ROCOR flock as well as its headquarters are in America. Does it mean they lost their soul. FYI, I am not an immigrant.

      >We are not speaking about any "American heritage" but about God's
      >heritage

      No, Vladimir, we were speaking about the words "nation" and "Russia" and their meanings. We were using English. American Heritage Dictionary is a major dictionary of English language as it is used in America.

      >My dear Viacheslav, when I speak about legitimacy of the government,
      >I am not talking in democratic terms. Any collective decision, be
      >it "democratic" to make of a people an entity that does not recognise
      >God as his God is illegitimate.

      Legitimate is a broad tearm. Britannica: 1 a: lawfully begotten; specif: born in wedlock b: having full filial rights and obligations by birth <a ~ child>2: being exactly as purposed: neither spurious nor false <~ grievance> <a ~ practitioner> 3a: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements <a ~ government> b: ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right <a ~ king> 4: conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards <~ advertising expenditure> <~ inference>.

      >You speak about "leadership". Again,
      >a totally profane term.

      You mentioned specific Soviet and post-Soviet Russian leaders.

      >My quotes about the collective responsibility
      >before God are not only from the Old testament, but also from the new
      >(I quote again and add other quotations).

      And I see no relevance of these quotes to the matter of our discussion. Perhaps you can use some quotes from the Holy Fathers that clarify these quotes in terms of "collective responsibility."

      >Our prayers are very often collective prayers. We often say "Save
      >us", and refer to us as "Israel".

      Vladimir, it is "New Israel" and it refers to Church of Christ. It does not refer to the Russian people specifically or to anyone outside the Church for that matter.

      >Matthew 18:18 "Listen to what I say to you! God approves of
      >everything you permit or prohibit in the community. 19 Listen again
      >to what I say to you! Any time two among you pray for agreement about
      >any dispute between them, my Father in heaven will do it for them. 20
      >For, when two or three believers GATHER TOGETHER to pray in my name,
      >I am present with them."

      Vladimir, you must have missed the key phrase "to pray in my name," which obviously excludes those who reject Christ.

      >I never discussed Russia as a "State". Talking about "abstraction",
      >as an American, you rail abstraction, because you belong to a
      >materialistic society. Please read:

      Russian Federation is a state. We started with the use of communist symbols in the Russian Federation and the "impossibility of redemption" of the people in the Russian Federation. FYI, I am not an American.

      >"The absence of deep local roots and the overwhelming feeling of the
      >uniformity of the Russian land and of the universal sameness of the
      >social environment were undoubtedly among the important and permanent
      >experiences of the Russian nobleman...

      Where is this coming from? Whose quote is it? What do "Russian noblemen" have to do with this? Are we discussing classes in the Imperial Russia now?

      viatcheslav





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    • vjb
      Paul, This entire discussion has a very strong political connotation and most of it concerns issues outside the Church. It happens very often that some of us
      Message 36 of 36 , Feb 3, 2005
        Paul,

        This entire discussion has a very strong political connotation and most of it concerns issues outside the Church. It happens very often that some of us (Russians) bring our political ideas to Church because we are likely to find an audience there. ROCOR does not represent the entirety of Orthodox Christianity. It is a part of a historical Russian Church. I am sure you are aware that Orthodox Church is a community of Churches and those Churches are ethnic. That is why you are likely to encounter some cultural issues. Unless you are interested in Russian politics/history/culture I would suggest to stay away from "all of this" and focus on Salvation. It sounds as if you left Orthodoxy. I am sorry to hear that. Despite its ethnic character (the word Russia appears twice in the name of the Church) ROCOR was very successful as a missionary church in America. I have seen many communities composed entirely of non-Russian converts.

        viatcheslav



        On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, vkozyreff wrote (small excerpts):

        > Russia is a spiritual concept. I suppose this
        > is easier to understand for Russians.

        > There was a time when "Russian" and "Christian"
        > were synonymous, in Russia.

        Is there any place for non-Russians in all of this? If I were to
        try to come back to Orthodox Christianity, would there even be a place
        for me, a non-Russian, in ROCOR? Is Orthodox Christianity bigger and
        more inclusive than merely Russia?

        --
        Paul Bartlett
        PGP key info in message headers



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