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Re: [orthodox-synod] Commercialisation of the MP Parish......

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... issues ... JRS: You do not seem to grasp: one can be for or against something or someone, yet still be *honest* in presenting news. In Christ Fr. John R.
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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      Deacon Basil Yakimov wrote:

      > Everyone knows where I stand in regard to the post soviet
      > MP. When I will see for myself that sergianstvo/ ecumenism & other
      issues
      > are resolved in a positive & the right way (as our Fathers blessed in
      > memory taught us) & a future SOBOR approves it... then perhaps I will
      > write about it closer to your current pro-MP stance.


      JRS: You do not seem to grasp: one can be for or against something or
      someone, yet still be *honest* in presenting news.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father John, bless. The fact is that Pat. Alexiy warns his priests about being commercial (for instance, charging a given percent of the automobile they
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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        Dear Father John, bless.

        The fact is that Pat. Alexiy warns his priests about being commercial
        (for instance, charging a given percent of the automobile they want
        to buy against administering a sacrament).

        If a historian reads this article, he will logically conclude that
        many MP priests do behave like that. The fact that no such warning
        was issued so far by Met Lavr is, in the historian's mind, in favour
        of the idea that such abuses are not currently being practised in
        ROCOR (L). Usually, Patriarchs and Metropolitans give relevant
        warning to their clergy.

        Let us be "factual", as we are encouraged to be.

        Being factual is noting that MP priests do behave in a commercial
        way. Assessing this conclusion as "negative" or "positive" has no
        meaning. Whatever your sympathy for the MP, this is a documentation
        of what is often described as a low spiritual level in the MP, in
        contrast with the golden cupolas.

        I think the dispute about being "honest" is out of place here.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff





        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
        > Regarding:
        >
        > > No I did not - if MP parishes were not being commercialised
        then
        > there
        > > would be no need for the concern as expressed by the
        > > post soviet MP patriarch & warnings etc......
        >
        > JRS: I am tempted to begin, "Shame on you!".
        >
        > If the abuses were not a source of concern for the Patriarch or the
        > hierarchy, that would be one thing.
        >
        > But, since these problems *are* being addressed, and since the
        article
        > only was written because the Patriarch was trying to deal with the
        > abuses he sees -- it seems dishonest to try and put such a
        > negative "spin" on praiseworthy efforts to improve church life.
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
      • vjb
        Dear Fr. Basil, It sounds as if you have appointed yourself a judge. Now, do we all have to wait until Fr. deacon Basil from Australia is satisfied?
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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          Dear Fr. Basil,

          It sounds as if you have appointed yourself a judge. Now, do we all have to wait until Fr. deacon Basil from Australia is satisfied?

          viatcheslav
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: byakimov@...
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:32 PM
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Commercialisation of the MP Parish......


          Father John. Everyone knows where I stand in regard to the post soviet
          MP. When I will see for myself that sergianstvo/ ecumenism & other issues
          are resolved in a positive & the right way (as our Fathers blessed in
          memory taught us) & a future SOBOR approves it... then perhaps I will
          write about it closer to your current pro-MP stance.

          ..... for the moment I beg to differ with you & others who hurriedly want
          to be part of the post soviet MP....

          protodeacon Basil from Canberra







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: To begin with, it is to the Patriarch s credit that he has taken a serious approach to a problem, and I have no doubt that the his pastoral concern is
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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            Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

            > If a historian reads this article, he will logically conclude that
            > many MP priests do behave like that. The fact that no such warning
            > was issued so far by Met Lavr is, in the historian's mind, in favour
            > of the idea that such abuses are not currently being practised in
            > ROCOR (L).

            JRS: To begin with, it is to the Patriarch's credit that he has taken a
            serious approach to a problem, and I have no doubt that the his
            pastoral concern is justified.

            I never said that "there is no such abuse" -- but rather, that the
            negative way the subject was presented, was misleading.

            There is an American expression, "Damned if you do, and damned if you
            don't"!

            That is, if the abuses existed and the Patriarch had *remained silent*,
            then he would have been accused of failing in his duty.

            But in this case, little had been heard about "all this", until
            Patriarch Alexy decided something needed to be done.

            Therefore the whole news article was written, *not* to denounce the
            abuses, but to make it known that the Patriarch himself had already
            done so.

            In Russia before the revolution, when the clergy tried to get their
            people to be more generous, they tended to be seen as "grasping".

            In the Church Abroad, recently there have also been voices raised among
            the clergy, that we should not charge "stole fees" for occasional
            services, for "Treby".

            The difficulty, however, lies in the fact that today, unless a priest
            has a secular job (which takes up most of his time and energy, leaving
            little for the church) -- his income in a ROCOR parish in the USA is
            usually not enough to get by on: especially if he has a family!

            The question is not simply one of "buying a new car".

            If most people still put only $1 in the collection plate, and then only
            if they were in church that day -- a parish would need to have a
            regular Sunday turnout of at least several hundred people in order to
            cover "operating expenses" plus the salary (and health insurance!) of
            one priest.

            My parish here in Milwaukee has hundreds of people who *sometimes*
            attend. But few of them put much in the plate collection, and therefore
            we have had to raise the price of candles, as well as the "minimum
            donation" for Treba services.

            Things are still very difficult financially, even though there are many
            people, and most of them not poor.

            I would prefer to ask nothing, and to leave it up to the individual
            generosity of those who request these occasional services. But
            experience has shown that unfortunately this does not work. In fact,
            the wealthier a person is, the less their offerings to the church or to
            the priest tend to be.

            If someone really is poor, and cannot pay for a baptism or the like, we
            do not demand any payment from them.

            So, I can understand the feelings of many priests in Russia; but there
            are, obviously, also abuses -- and I think we should respect, rather
            than condemn, the Patriarch for his concern.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Hristofor
            ... I have heard reports that in the Greek Archdiocese (of N&S America), weddings and baptisms do not take place until the bride/groom, parents, kumovja and
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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              vkozyreff пишет:

              >Dear Father John, bless.
              >
              >The fact is that Pat. Alexiy warns his priests about being commercial
              >(for instance, charging a given percent of the automobile they want
              >to buy against administering a sacrament).
              >
              I have heard reports that in the Greek Archdiocese (of N&S America),
              weddings and baptisms do not take place until the bride/groom, parents,
              kumovja and whoever else maybe connected with the ceremony are "members
              in good standing." Most Orthodox would assume this to mean receiving
              Holy Confession/Communion at least 4 times a year. In fact, it means
              paying your parish dues+the Archdiocesan levy. It also means to be "in
              good standing" for not only the current but previous year(s).

              Contrast that with the pleas and constant reminders of the priests and
              parish councils in ROCA to "pay your dues in a timely manner." (And I
              will admit, I am chief in being tardy/late/neglectful). The picture is
              even darker, since the average ROCA dues are a pittance compared to what
              the Archdiocese collects. Please do not misunderstand me, I am neither
              defending the Archdiocese nor parish priests in Moscow who may try to
              take advantage of their parishioners. I am just pointing out that
              similar indiscretions occur elsewhere. If the Holy Fathers expected that
              every single clergyman to be without sin, they certainly would not have
              bothered to write canons which establish a Duhovny Sud (Spiritual
              Court?) and the process for defrocking priests.

              One of the most frustrating things for me about the schismatics and the
              naysayers is that when it comes to the MP, the glass is always half
              empty (and is never half full). Furthermore, no stone is left unturned
              to find the slightest transgression of the MP and then to publicize it
              and comment about it for all to see. When the MP takes a positive step,
              however, the keyboards of the naysayers suddenly fall silent and like
              the priest and the Levite in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, walk
              blindly past the robbed victim. How shameful and sickening that in their
              quest for "purity of Faith", they have become "professional pessimists"
              like paid mourners at a Greek funeral.

              As I have become closer with people that have come here from Russia and
              they begin to tell you the personal stories of their lives, and that of
              their parents and grandparents, it is absolutely incomprehensible to
              someone brought up in the West of the horrors that everyone in Russia
              lived through and experienced almost on a daily basis in the former
              USSR. It is truly by God's Divine Providence that churches, relics, holy
              vessels and most importantly the Orthodox Faith survived in the USSR and
              was not erased completely. We can argue until the Second Coming about
              Metr. Sergius but all the talk in the world will not change history and
              those in the West will (hopefully) never experience what our suffering
              and martyred brethren did during the years of Soviet power. Over the
              holiday I heard the following: our friend's grandfather was an engineer
              for the Imperial Russian Railways. Fairly harmless (and in fact fairly
              important) to the SU. He remained in his job until one day in the 20's
              he went to work and never came back. Simply disappeared without a trace
              for no reason. PROPAL BEZ VJESTI! Contemplate your spouse or parent
              going to work and not coming back home for any reason (i.e. auto
              accident or sudden heart attack). Multiply that story by 100 million and
              try to let your mind comprehend the incomprehensible Hell on Earth. Once
              you have finished contemplating that, then come back and write about
              this, that or the other thing that is going on in the Moscow Patriarchate.

              Hristofor
            • frraphver
              ... wrote: I think what is written below well sums up the problem with the schismatic vision of the Church. It is a mistaken focus on human sin instead of the
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                wrote:

                I think what is written below well sums up the problem with the
                schismatic vision of the Church. It is a mistaken focus on human sin
                instead of the Life which Christ offers & how this works in the
                lives of countless suffering people. To what is written below we can
                probably, in a post to follow, expect 'a reminder of just how bad
                things really are'. Hopefully when we have to pass the toll gates
                the defense of the angels, "his one good deed offsets his sins,"
                will win out over the argument of the demons, "no, his sins wipe out
                the effect of any good he did!"
                In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

                > One of the most frustrating things for me about the schismatics
                and the
                > naysayers is that when it comes to the MP, the glass is always
                half
                > empty (and is never half full). Furthermore, no stone is left
                unturned
                > to find the slightest transgression of the MP and then to
                publicize it
                > and comment about it for all to see. When the MP takes a positive
                step,
                > however, the keyboards of the naysayers suddenly fall silent and
                like
                > the priest and the Levite in the Parable of the Good Samaritan,
                walk
                > blindly past the robbed victim. How shameful and sickening that in
                their
                > quest for "purity of Faith", they have become "professional
                pessimists"
                > like paid mourners at a Greek funeral.
                >
                > As I have become closer with people that have come here from
                Russia and
                > they begin to tell you the personal stories of their lives, and
                that of
                > their parents and grandparents, it is absolutely incomprehensible
                to
                > someone brought up in the West of the horrors that everyone in
                Russia
                > lived through and experienced almost on a daily basis in the
                former
                > USSR. It is truly by God's Divine Providence that churches,
                relics, holy
                > vessels and most importantly the Orthodox Faith survived in the
                USSR and
                > was not erased completely. We can argue until the Second Coming
                about
                > Metr. Sergius but all the talk in the world will not change
                history and
                > those in the West will (hopefully) never experience what our
                suffering
                > and martyred brethren did during the years of Soviet power. Over
                the
                > holiday I heard the following: our friend's grandfather was an
                engineer
                > for the Imperial Russian Railways. Fairly harmless (and in fact
                fairly
                > important) to the SU. He remained in his job until one day in the
                20's
                > he went to work and never came back. Simply disappeared without a
                trace
                > for no reason. PROPAL BEZ VJESTI! Contemplate your spouse or
                parent
                > going to work and not coming back home for any reason (i.e. auto
                > accident or sudden heart attack). Multiply that story by 100
                million and
                > try to let your mind comprehend the incomprehensible Hell on
                Earth. Once
                > you have finished contemplating that, then come back and write
                about
                > this, that or the other thing that is going on in the Moscow
                Patriarchate.
                >
                > Hristofor
              • larry most
                CHRIST IS BORN - GLORIFY HIM Dear Father John, You are so right. As a convert, I cannot believe how casual some of the Orthodox are when it comes to the
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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                  CHRIST IS BORN - GLORIFY HIM
                  Dear Father John,
                  You are so right. As a convert, I cannot believe how
                  casual some of the Orthodox are when it comes to the
                  support of the Church (either monetarily or
                  spiritually). You can't believe what some of the
                  Protestant (and even Roman Catholics) collect. Also,
                  in ROCOR I was suprised to learn that a priest is
                  almost expected to have an "outside job". I believe
                  that if we expect our priest to do a good job, we have
                  to support him as much as we can. Also, unless the
                  priest is a "total idiot" (forgive the expression) we
                  should give him all of the co-operation that we are
                  able to and we should NEVER,EVER treat him as a hired
                  hand, but rather an honored member of our family. Just
                  a few thoughts from a lowly sub-deacon.
                  Hope that you had a Blessed Nativity
                  Love in Christ,
                  Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                  --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:

                  > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                  >
                  > > If a historian reads this article, he will
                  > logically conclude that
                  > > many MP priests do behave like that. The fact that
                  > no such warning
                  > > was issued so far by Met Lavr is, in the
                  > historian's mind, in favour
                  > > of the idea that such abuses are not currently
                  > being practised in
                  > > ROCOR (L).
                  >
                  > JRS: To begin with, it is to the Patriarch's credit
                  > that he has taken a
                  > serious approach to a problem, and I have no doubt
                  > that the his
                  > pastoral concern is justified.
                  >
                  > I never said that "there is no such abuse" -- but
                  > rather, that the
                  > negative way the subject was presented, was
                  > misleading.
                  >
                  > There is an American expression, "Damned if you do,
                  > and damned if you
                  > don't"!
                  >
                  > That is, if the abuses existed and the Patriarch had
                  > *remained silent*,
                  > then he would have been accused of failing in his
                  > duty.
                  >
                  > But in this case, little had been heard about "all
                  > this", until
                  > Patriarch Alexy decided something needed to be done.
                  >
                  >
                  > Therefore the whole news article was written, *not*
                  > to denounce the
                  > abuses, but to make it known that the Patriarch
                  > himself had already
                  > done so.
                  >
                  > In Russia before the revolution, when the clergy
                  > tried to get their
                  > people to be more generous, they tended to be seen
                  > as "grasping".
                  >
                  > In the Church Abroad, recently there have also been
                  > voices raised among
                  > the clergy, that we should not charge "stole fees"
                  > for occasional
                  > services, for "Treby".
                  >
                  > The difficulty, however, lies in the fact that
                  > today, unless a priest
                  > has a secular job (which takes up most of his time
                  > and energy, leaving
                  > little for the church) -- his income in a ROCOR
                  > parish in the USA is
                  > usually not enough to get by on: especially if he
                  > has a family!
                  >
                  > The question is not simply one of "buying a new
                  > car".
                  >
                  > If most people still put only $1 in the collection
                  > plate, and then only
                  > if they were in church that day -- a parish would
                  > need to have a
                  > regular Sunday turnout of at least several hundred
                  > people in order to
                  > cover "operating expenses" plus the salary (and
                  > health insurance!) of
                  > one priest.
                  >
                  > My parish here in Milwaukee has hundreds of people
                  > who *sometimes*
                  > attend. But few of them put much in the plate
                  > collection, and therefore
                  > we have had to raise the price of candles, as well
                  > as the "minimum
                  > donation" for Treba services.
                  >
                  > Things are still very difficult financially, even
                  > though there are many
                  > people, and most of them not poor.
                  >
                  > I would prefer to ask nothing, and to leave it up to
                  > the individual
                  > generosity of those who request these occasional
                  > services. But
                  > experience has shown that unfortunately this does
                  > not work. In fact,
                  > the wealthier a person is, the less their offerings
                  > to the church or to
                  > the priest tend to be.
                  >
                  > If someone really is poor, and cannot pay for a
                  > baptism or the like, we
                  > do not demand any payment from them.
                  >
                  > So, I can understand the feelings of many priests in
                  > Russia; but there
                  > are, obviously, also abuses -- and I think we should
                  > respect, rather
                  > than condemn, the Patriarch for his concern.
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >





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                • nikifor_nikiforov
                  Hristofor, The only positive step the MP can take is to repent and ask that they be received into the Church according to the Canons. Our ROCOR Hierarchs have
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 12, 2005
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                    Hristofor,

                    The only positive step the MP can take is to repent and ask that they
                    be received into the Church according to the Canons. Our ROCOR
                    Hierarchs have repeatedly denied that Grace exists in the MP. How does
                    it exist all of a sudden?? Why is the MP allowed such power in
                    discussions?

                    Our family like many others had people disappear during the night. It
                    was very difficult to find a Church where the clergy was not KGB.
                    Maybe you do not realize how many parishoners are still living and
                    remember all too well what the MP is all about. Sergius may have been
                    under pressure to capitulate. But what excuse do our ROCOR clergy
                    today have to deny that ordinations performed by themselves within the
                    USSR boundaries are invalid? Do you tell these people that worshipping
                    secretly all these years was a mistake? They should have risked it?
                    Could it be that Met Laurus did not visit any ROCOR parishes during
                    his last visit to USSR because he did not want to "rock the boat"?

                    Nikifor Nikiforov
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Viacheslav, When you write: It sounds as if you have appointed yourself a judge. Now, do we all have to wait until Fr. deacon Basil from Australia is
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                      Dear Viacheslav,

                      When you write: "It sounds as if you have appointed yourself a
                      judge. Now, do we all have to wait until Fr. deacon Basil from
                      Australia is satisfied? ", not only do you, Viacheslav rightly
                      appoint yourself as a judge too, but maybe you make an error of
                      judgement.

                      It is right to exert one's judgement at all time in all places. In
                      this, both of you are right. It is wrong however to condemn, as you
                      do, a person for exerting his judgement.

                      Instead of giving arguments to support your opposite opinion, you
                      suggest us to stop exerting man's most precious asset: our faculty of
                      judgement.

                      o We must judge about all things (diacrisis).
                      o We, sinners, do not cast the first stone at any other sinner. We
                      must not judge our brother-sinners (catacrisis). We must however
                      always decide whether any action that we know of is right or wrong.

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff



                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vjb" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Fr. Basil,
                      >
                      > It sounds as if you have appointed yourself a judge. Now, do we all
                      have to wait until Fr. deacon Basil from Australia is satisfied?
                      >
                      > viatcheslav
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: byakimov@c...
                      > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:32 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Commercialisation of the MP
                      Parish......
                      >
                      >
                      > Father John. Everyone knows where I stand in regard to the post
                      soviet
                      > MP. When I will see for myself that sergianstvo/ ecumenism &
                      other issues
                      > are resolved in a positive & the right way (as our Fathers
                      blessed in
                      > memory taught us) & a future SOBOR approves it... then perhaps I
                      will
                      > write about it closer to your current pro-MP stance.
                      >
                      > ..... for the moment I beg to differ with you & others who
                      hurriedly want
                      > to be part of the post soviet MP....
                      >
                      > protodeacon Basil from Canberra
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • vjb
                      Nikifor, You seem to be very knowledgeable about things. It seems that you know even better than our bishops. Perhaps you can clarify things for some of us who
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                        Nikifor,

                        You seem to be very knowledgeable about things. It seems that you know even better than our bishops. Perhaps you can clarify things for some of us who do not know: when did ROCOR deny the Grace in the MP? Please quote.

                        viatcheslav

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: nikifor_nikiforov
                        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:48 PM
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Commercialisation of the MP Parish......




                        Hristofor,

                        The only positive step the MP can take is to repent and ask that they
                        be received into the Church according to the Canons. Our ROCOR
                        Hierarchs have repeatedly denied that Grace exists in the MP. How does
                        it exist all of a sudden?? Why is the MP allowed such power in
                        discussions?

                        Our family like many others had people disappear during the night. It
                        was very difficult to find a Church where the clergy was not KGB.
                        Maybe you do not realize how many parishoners are still living and
                        remember all too well what the MP is all about. Sergius may have been
                        under pressure to capitulate. But what excuse do our ROCOR clergy
                        today have to deny that ordinations performed by themselves within the
                        USSR boundaries are invalid? Do you tell these people that worshipping
                        secretly all these years was a mistake? They should have risked it?
                        Could it be that Met Laurus did not visit any ROCOR parishes during
                        his last visit to USSR because he did not want to "rock the boat"?

                        Nikifor Nikiforov








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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • larry most
                        CHRIST IS BORN GLORIFY HIM Dear Nikifor, I (being a lowly convert have one question for you guys. Why would you have a Russian Orthodox Church outside of
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                          CHRIST IS BORN GLORIFY HIM
                          Dear Nikifor,
                          I (being a lowly convert have one question for you
                          guys. Why would you have a Russian Orthodox Church
                          outside of Russia IN Russia? Or,if you prefer a
                          Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, at home in Russia.
                          According to you and a few others, the Moscow
                          Patriarchate can do NOTHING right. It seems to me that
                          if you spent as much time in prayer as you do
                          criticising other Orthodox Churches, we would live in
                          a better world. Sorry for being so caustic, but this
                          stuff gets old after a while. For a church that is so
                          wrong they are doing a great job.
                          Again, if I've offended you I am sorry.
                          Love in Christ,
                          Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                          --- nikifor_nikiforov <nikifor_nikiforov@...>
                          wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Hristofor,
                          >
                          > The only positive step the MP can take is to repent
                          > and ask that they
                          > be received into the Church according to the Canons.
                          > Our ROCOR
                          > Hierarchs have repeatedly denied that Grace exists
                          > in the MP. How does
                          > it exist all of a sudden?? Why is the MP allowed
                          > such power in
                          > discussions?
                          >
                          > Our family like many others had people disappear
                          > during the night. It
                          > was very difficult to find a Church where the clergy
                          > was not KGB.
                          > Maybe you do not realize how many parishoners are
                          > still living and
                          > remember all too well what the MP is all about.
                          > Sergius may have been
                          > under pressure to capitulate. But what excuse do our
                          > ROCOR clergy
                          > today have to deny that ordinations performed by
                          > themselves within the
                          > USSR boundaries are invalid? Do you tell these
                          > people that worshipping
                          > secretly all these years was a mistake? They should
                          > have risked it?
                          > Could it be that Met Laurus did not visit any ROCOR
                          > parishes during
                          > his last visit to USSR because he did not want to
                          > "rock the boat"?
                          >
                          > Nikifor Nikiforov
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear Lawrence, The question is whether or not the MP structure with which ROCOR is negotiating its union is orthodox or not. If it is not orthodox (because it
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                            Dear Lawrence,

                            The question is whether or not the MP structure with which ROCOR is
                            negotiating its union is orthodox or not. If it is not orthodox
                            (because it is sergianist and ecumenist), indeed, everything it does
                            is corrupt and cannot be good.

                            Our goal is not to live in a better world. It is the Dalai Lama who
                            says "all religions have the same goal, which is to make the world
                            better".

                            Orthodoxy is not about making the world better, but about saving our
                            souls. Christ has warned us to be watchful for false prophets, for
                            false churches, quasi churches and antichrists. Can you imagine a
                            clearer message? How big has the MP falsehood to be before you can
                            see it?

                            Let us never forget: we must judge, and keep judging.

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff

                            "But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly
                            judged by no one." (1 Corinthians 2:15).


                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                            <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                            > CHRIST IS BORN GLORIFY HIM
                            > Dear Nikifor,
                            > I (being a lowly convert have one question for you
                            > guys. Why would you have a Russian Orthodox Church
                            > outside of Russia IN Russia? Or,if you prefer a
                            > Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, at home in Russia.
                            > According to you and a few others, the Moscow
                            > Patriarchate can do NOTHING right. It seems to me that
                            > if you spent as much time in prayer as you do
                            > criticising other Orthodox Churches, we would live in
                            > a better world. Sorry for being so caustic, but this
                            > stuff gets old after a while. For a church that is so
                            > wrong they are doing a great job.
                            > Again, if I've offended you I am sorry.
                            > Love in Christ,
                            > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                            > --- nikifor_nikiforov <nikifor_nikiforov@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hristofor,
                            > >
                            > > The only positive step the MP can take is to repent
                            > > and ask that they
                            > > be received into the Church according to the Canons.
                            > > Our ROCOR
                            > > Hierarchs have repeatedly denied that Grace exists
                            > > in the MP. How does
                            > > it exist all of a sudden?? Why is the MP allowed
                            > > such power in
                            > > discussions?
                            > >
                            > > Our family like many others had people disappear
                            > > during the night. It
                            > > was very difficult to find a Church where the clergy
                            > > was not KGB.
                            > > Maybe you do not realize how many parishoners are
                            > > still living and
                            > > remember all too well what the MP is all about.
                            > > Sergius may have been
                            > > under pressure to capitulate. But what excuse do our
                            > > ROCOR clergy
                            > > today have to deny that ordinations performed by
                            > > themselves within the
                            > > USSR boundaries are invalid? Do you tell these
                            > > people that worshipping
                            > > secretly all these years was a mistake? They should
                            > > have risked it?
                            > > Could it be that Met Laurus did not visit any ROCOR
                            > > parishes during
                            > > his last visit to USSR because he did not want to
                            > > "rock the boat"?
                            > >
                            > > Nikifor Nikiforov
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
                            > http://my.yahoo.com
                          • byakimov@csc.com.au
                            Dear Viatcheslav, I am not judging anyone but following the teachings of our ROCA Fathers blessed in memory. The only decision I will need to make in due
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                              Dear Viatcheslav,

                              I am not judging anyone but following the teachings of our ROCA Fathers
                              blessed in memory. The only decision I will need to make in due course is
                              about myself & where I stand in the Lord's House as a ROCA deacon who has
                              always been loyal to our historical ROCA,

                              It seems to me - a sad situation - that one gives a heading to an
                              article but makes no other comment as the article speaks for itself, - one
                              is called foolish, misleading & even a judge unto oneself. The article
                              speaks for itself & it speaks for the things we too in ROCA
                              should condemn. It is not my place to say whether the post soviet MP's
                              patriarch was timely in his condemnation & warnings or was 15
                              years in coming to the realisation that things are abnormal in some MP
                              parishes... In regard to this each one of us can come to her or his own
                              conclusion.

                              For the hundredth time I have never been against TRUE UNIFICATION (his
                              Grace Archbishop Mark can verify to that) but I have without any doubt been
                              concerned about the unjustified rush in to this process when such things
                              as sergianism & ecumenism have not been resolved.

                              The current MP top echelon is indeed not ready or willing to leave WCC nor
                              to condemn sergianism in its fullness of betrayal, ursuption of power,
                              loyalty to the godless soviet state & proclaiming lies instead of the true
                              situation in the then soviet union, not to mention the collaboration with
                              the NKVD-KGB of some of the MP Bishops & other clergy (in regard to the
                              latter I understand an MP committee was set up under the chairmanship of
                              an Archbishop but, it seems, it was killed off before it started to
                              gather the evidence). There should be NO COMPROMISE with the TRUTH!

                              S PRAZDNIKAMI i S BOGOM!

                              protodeacon Basil from Canberra



                              "vjb"
                              <venceslav@softh To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              ome.net> cc:
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Commercialisation of the MP Parish......
                              13/01/2005 03:15
                              AM
                              Please respond
                              to
                              orthodox-synod







                              Dear Fr. Basil,

                              It sounds as if you have appointed yourself a judge. Now, do we all have to
                              wait until Fr. deacon Basil from Australia is satisfied?

                              viatcheslav
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: byakimov@...
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:32 PM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Commercialisation of the MP Parish......


                                Father John.  Everyone knows where I stand in regard to the post soviet
                                MP.  When I  will see for myself that sergianstvo/ ecumenism & other
                              issues
                                are resolved in a positive & the right way (as our Fathers blessed in
                                memory taught us) & a  future SOBOR approves it... then perhaps I will
                                write about it closer to your current pro-MP stance.

                                ..... for the moment I beg to differ with you & others who hurriedly want
                                to be part of the post soviet MP....

                                protodeacon Basil from Canberra







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                            • nikifor_nikiforov
                              Sub-deacon Lawrence, Because the MP is not the Church. Archbishop Nikodim is quoted as saying that it is better to go to no Church than to a Soviet Church. Now
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                                Sub-deacon Lawrence,

                                Because the MP is not the Church. Archbishop Nikodim is quoted as
                                saying that it is better to go to no Church than to a Soviet Church.
                                Now that the Soviet government and the KGB are doing business under
                                new acronyms, and religious oppression appears much less apparent, it
                                is possible for the ROCOR to unite again with the Mother Church. We
                                can find the Mother Church as Catacombs in Russia. They have been in
                                hiding for decades. Unfortunately, they are ignored by our present
                                hierarchs.

                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most <larrymost2002@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > CHRIST IS BORN GLORIFY HIM
                                > Dear Nikifor,
                                > I (being a lowly convert have one question for you
                                > guys. Why would you have a Russian Orthodox Church
                                > outside of Russia IN Russia? Or,if you prefer a
                                > Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, at home in Russia.

                                > According to you and a few others, the Moscow
                                > Patriarchate can do NOTHING right.

                                The only thing the MP can do that is right is to repent of Sergianism
                                and ask the ROCOR to take them back under the wing of the Church.

                                It seems to me that
                                > if you spent as much time in prayer as you do
                                > criticising other Orthodox Churches, we would live in
                                > a better world.

                                You're probably right.

                                Sorry for being so caustic, but this
                                > stuff gets old after a while. For a church that is so
                                > wrong they are doing a great job.

                                They could start doing a great job by renouncing ecumenism and leading
                                the other ecumenical pseudo-orthodox churches out of the World Council
                                of Churches.

                                > Again, if I've offended you I am sorry.

                                No offense taken and none intended. Just lively discussion based on fact.

                                Nikifor Nikiforov


                                > Love in Christ,
                                > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                                > --- nikifor_nikiforov <nikifor_nikiforov@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hristofor,
                                > >
                                > > The only positive step the MP can take is to repent
                                > > and ask that they
                                > > be received into the Church according to the Canons.
                                > > Our ROCOR
                                > > Hierarchs have repeatedly denied that Grace exists
                                > > in the MP. How does
                                > > it exist all of a sudden?? Why is the MP allowed
                                > > such power in
                                > > discussions?
                                > >
                                > > Our family like many others had people disappear
                                > > during the night. It
                                > > was very difficult to find a Church where the clergy
                                > > was not KGB.
                                > > Maybe you do not realize how many parishoners are
                                > > still living and
                                > > remember all too well what the MP is all about.
                                > > Sergius may have been
                                > > under pressure to capitulate. But what excuse do our
                                > > ROCOR clergy
                                > > today have to deny that ordinations performed by
                                > > themselves within the
                                > > USSR boundaries are invalid? Do you tell these
                                > > people that worshipping
                                > > secretly all these years was a mistake? They should
                                > > have risked it?
                                > > Could it be that Met Laurus did not visit any ROCOR
                                > > parishes during
                                > > his last visit to USSR because he did not want to
                                > > "rock the boat"?
                                > >
                                > > Nikifor Nikiforov
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________
                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
                                > http://my.yahoo.com
                              • nikifor_nikiforov
                                Viatcheslav, The MP is under anathema for becoming one with the God-less Soviet Regime. All-Russian Church Council (28 I. 1918) confirmed the Anathema on the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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                                  Viatcheslav,

                                  The MP is under anathema for becoming one with the God-less Soviet
                                  Regime.

                                  All-Russian Church Council (28 I. 1918) confirmed the Anathema on the
                                  Soviets by Saint Patriarch Tikhon.

                                  20th canon of the Local Council of Gangra: If anyone shall, from a
                                  presumptuous disposition, condemn and abhor the assembly honoring the
                                  martyrs, or the services performed there, and the commemoration of
                                  them, let them be anathema.

                                  Anathema Against Ecumenism - ROCOR 1983 - confirmed again in 1998 -
                                  All Bishops signed. MP falls under this anathema for reasons including
                                  their membership in the WCC and communion with Roman Catholic Church.

                                  Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church
                                  is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way
                                  of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed
                                  in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even
                                  religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the
                                  priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but
                                  say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for
                                  salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these
                                  aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their
                                  new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the
                                  supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!



                                  Metropolitan Vitaly

                                  It is a pseudo-patriarchate with a pseudo-patriarch at its head. This
                                  is the fundamental reason. So we do not point at it and say there,
                                  look what it's turned into, because the very heart of the matter is,
                                  that the Moscow Patriarchate has lost the Apostolic Succession, which
                                  is to say, that it has lost the Grace of Christ.

                                  We have not the slightest intention of taking part in a Bishops'
                                  Council, or Sobor, jointly with the Moscow Patriarchate, and based on
                                  your statement this means that we will turn into a sect. How, after
                                  asserting this, do you have the moral right to be a rector of a parish
                                  in a Church, concerning which you have no faith at all in its
                                  canonical foundation?



                                  Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of Kiev

                                  ...the Moscow Synod has deprived itself of all authority, since it
                                  has entered into agreement with the atheists, and without offering any
                                  resistance it has tolerated the closing and destruction of the holy
                                  churches, and the other innumerable crimes of the Soviet
                                  government…
                                  That illegally formed organization which has entered into union with
                                  God's enemies, which Metropolitan Sergius calls an Orthodox Synod
                                  –
                                  but which the best Russian hierarchs, clergy and laymen have refused
                                  to recognize -


                                  Archbishop Antony of Los Angeles

                                  According to many canonical rules, all of the so-called bishops,
                                  archbishops and metropolitans of the Moscow Patriarchate, being KGB
                                  agents, are apostates from Christ. The 62nd Apostolic Canon deprives
                                  them of these titles, and if they repent, it calls for them to be
                                  accepted as laymen and not to be ordained. Similar orders are found in
                                  numerous (24) canonical rules. From this, we see that the Divine
                                  Canons do not admit the Divine Gifts to apostates - KGB agents.

                                  Saint Metropolitan Philaret

                                  In precisely the same manner, in receiving the Soviet clergy, we apply
                                  the principle of economia. And we receive the clergymen from Moscow
                                  not as ones possessing grace, but as ones receiving it by the very act
                                  of union. But to recognize the church of the evil-doers as the bearer
                                  and repository of grace, that we cannot do, of course. For outside of
                                  Orthodoxy there is no grace; and the Soviet church has deprived itself
                                  of grace.

                                  The Bishops' Sobor resolved to be guided by and to fulfill the
                                  Testament of Metropolitan Anastasy, in which the late First Hierarch
                                  bade us not to have any communion with the Soviet church whatsoever,
                                  not only no prayerful communion, but not even ordinary contact.



                                  Nikifor Nikiforov



                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vjb" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Nikifor,
                                  >
                                  > You seem to be very knowledgeable about things. It seems that you
                                  know even better than our bishops. Perhaps you can clarify things for
                                  some of us who do not know: when did ROCOR deny the Grace in the MP?
                                  Please quote.
                                  >
                                  > viatcheslav
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: nikifor_nikiforov
                                  > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:48 PM
                                  > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Commercialisation of the MP
                                  Parish......
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hristofor,
                                  >
                                  > The only positive step the MP can take is to repent and ask that
                                  they
                                  > be received into the Church according to the Canons. Our ROCOR
                                  > Hierarchs have repeatedly denied that Grace exists in the MP. How
                                  does
                                  > it exist all of a sudden?? Why is the MP allowed such power in
                                  > discussions?
                                  >
                                  > Our family like many others had people disappear during the
                                  night. It
                                  > was very difficult to find a Church where the clergy was not KGB.
                                  > Maybe you do not realize how many parishoners are still living and
                                  > remember all too well what the MP is all about. Sergius may have
                                  been
                                  > under pressure to capitulate. But what excuse do our ROCOR clergy
                                  > today have to deny that ordinations performed by themselves
                                  within the
                                  > USSR boundaries are invalid? Do you tell these people that
                                  worshipping
                                  > secretly all these years was a mistake? They should have risked
                                  it?
                                  > Could it be that Met Laurus did not visit any ROCOR parishes
                                  during
                                  > his last visit to USSR because he did not want to "rock the
                                  boat"?
                                  >
                                  > Nikifor Nikiforov
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • vjb
                                  Dear Nikifor, ... Is the anathema on the Soviet state or the Russian Church? If you believe it is the latter, then does it fall on the entire church in Russia
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                                    Dear Nikifor,

                                    Let me see if I understand correctly:

                                    >The MP is under anathema for becoming one with the God-less Soviet
                                    >Regime.
                                    >All-Russian Church Council (28 I. 1918) confirmed the Anathema on the
                                    >Soviets by Saint Patriarch Tikhon.

                                    Is the anathema on the Soviet state or the Russian Church? If you believe it is the latter, then does it fall on the entire church in Russia or on certain hierarchs? Is there any decision of the ROCOR that says that "this anathema applies to the MP?" If not, it is only your own free interpretation of the events.


                                    >20th canon of the Local Council of Gangra: If anyone shall, from a
                                    >presumptuous disposition, condemn and abhor the assembly honoring the
                                    >martyrs, or the services performed there, and the commemoration of
                                    >them, let them be anathema.

                                    Once again, Is there any decision of the ROCOR that says that "this anathema applies to the MP?"


                                    >Anathema Against Ecumenism - ROCOR 1983 - confirmed again in 1998 -
                                    >All Bishops signed. MP falls under this anathema for reasons including
                                    >their membership in the WCC and communion with Roman Catholic Church.

                                    It sounds redundant, but Is there any decision of the ROCOR that says that "this anathema applies to the MP?" You say "MP falls under this anathema." Is it your decision or the ROCOR? Besides, MP is not in communion with any heterodox. You statement above is a lie!!!

                                    If there are any decisons of ROCOR you can present that are not just your own thoughts it would be useful to read them, as much as I appreciate your personal opinion.

                                    viatcheslav







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • vjb
                                    Dear Fr. Basil, There is no doubt that each one of us will have to make a decision for ourselves. Each one of us committed to Christ and Orthodoxy is trying to
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                                      Dear Fr. Basil,

                                      There is no doubt that each one of us will have to make a decision for ourselves. Each one of us committed to Christ and Orthodoxy is trying to follow the teachings of Our Lord, Holy Apostles, Holy Fathers and so on. The problem is in how each one of us understands that teaching. The history of Christianity teaches us that everyone, who fell away from the Church as well as those who followed a heresy were convinced that they were "following the teaching." As a deacon, tell me what are the criteria that you use when you make the determination. It is obvious that neither you nor I may have the fullness of information. In fact, your own comments on this list demonstrate that your sources are very limited and your idea of (both past and present) situation in Russia is very far from reality. Our bishops say that ROCOR has always considered and still considers MP "a part of the Russian Church." Some individuals say that it is not so, but their only argument is that that's how they understood the teaching of ROCOR in the past. Not a single quote from the (sobornye) decisions of the ROCOR Councils has been presented. Those individuals often say in their defense that "sobornost" of our Church includes not only hierarchs and clergy but also the lay people (the Laos), apparently meaning that their own opinion is just as good as that of the Council. Would you agree that as individuals we are fallible, our decisions and may be based on emotions, prejudices, lack of information, ignorance and besides we may be mislead by our pride and tempted by the evil one? Is there a difference between the individual opinions and the opinion of the Council?

                                      Forgive me if any of my words are hurtful.

                                      viatcheslav




                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: byakimov@...
                                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 5:43 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Commercialisation of the MP Parish......


                                      Dear Viatcheslav,

                                      I am not judging anyone but following the teachings of our ROCA Fathers
                                      blessed in memory. The only decision I will need to make in due course is
                                      about myself & where I stand in the Lord's House as a ROCA deacon who has
                                      always been loyal to our historical ROCA,

                                      It seems to me - a sad situation - that one gives a heading to an
                                      article but makes no other comment as the article speaks for itself, - one
                                      is called foolish, misleading & even a judge unto oneself. The article
                                      speaks for itself & it speaks for the things we too in ROCA
                                      should condemn. It is not my place to say whether the post soviet MP's
                                      patriarch was timely in his condemnation & warnings or was 15
                                      years in coming to the realisation that things are abnormal in some MP
                                      parishes... In regard to this each one of us can come to her or his own
                                      conclusion.

                                      For the hundredth time I have never been against TRUE UNIFICATION (his
                                      Grace Archbishop Mark can verify to that) but I have without any doubt been
                                      concerned about the unjustified rush in to this process when such things
                                      as sergianism & ecumenism have not been resolved.

                                      The current MP top echelon is indeed not ready or willing to leave WCC nor
                                      to condemn sergianism in its fullness of betrayal, ursuption of power,
                                      loyalty to the godless soviet state & proclaiming lies instead of the true
                                      situation in the then soviet union, not to mention the collaboration with
                                      the NKVD-KGB of some of the MP Bishops & other clergy (in regard to the
                                      latter I understand an MP committee was set up under the chairmanship of
                                      an Archbishop but, it seems, it was killed off before it started to
                                      gather the evidence). There should be NO COMPROMISE with the TRUTH!

                                      S PRAZDNIKAMI i S BOGOM!

                                      protodeacon Basil from Canberra


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • michael nikitin
                                      Dear Viatcheslav and List, Our Synod was always careful with words, but one notices the hierarch s were more stern with their words towards the MP as the years
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 18, 2005
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                                        Dear Viatcheslav and List,

                                        Our Synod was always careful with words, but one notices the hierarch's
                                        were more stern with their words towards the MP as the years went by,
                                        especially in their statements.

                                        Metr.Anastassy stated not to have communion or any contact whatsoever with the MP.

                                        The Sobor of 1971 stated Patr.Pimen was not canonical and all his actions were without
                                        merit.

                                        St.Metr.Philaret wrote the MP was without grace, which is the reason
                                        those wishing to join ROCOR were chrismated...to bestow grace which
                                        they were lacking.

                                        Bishop Averky called the MP a harlot, because they serve with anyone.

                                        Archimandrite Constantine called the MP a Soviet Church.

                                        Patr.Tikhon, St.Metr.Joseph of Petrograd and the Catacomb Church anathematized the
                                        Soviets and anyone who joined with them. Metr.Sergei and those with him
                                        joined them and thus the MP fell under their own anathema.

                                        Statements of our new Martyrs of Russia:
                                        http//:www.monasterypress.com

                                        etc...etc...etc...there are many such statements for our edification.

                                        Our Synod was careful with words, but our Hierarch's and new Martyrs of Russia,
                                        individually, but with sobornost, spoke out.

                                        God gave us discernment and a free will to chose. With the prayers of our previous
                                        hierarch's and new Martyrs of Russia let us make the correct decision.

                                        Michael N

                                        vjb <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                        Dear Fr. Basil,

                                        There is no doubt that each one of us will have to make a decision for ourselves. Each one of us committed to Christ and Orthodoxy is trying to follow the teachings of Our Lord, Holy Apostles, Holy Fathers and so on. The problem is in how each one of us understands that teaching. The history of Christianity teaches us that everyone, who fell away from the Church as well as those who followed a heresy were convinced that they were "following the teaching." As a deacon, tell me what are the criteria that you use when you make the determination. It is obvious that neither you nor I may have the fullness of information. In fact, your own comments on this list demonstrate that your sources are very limited and your idea of (both past and present) situation in Russia is very far from reality. Our bishops say that ROCOR has always considered and still considers MP "a part of the Russian Church." Some individuals say that it is not so, but their only argument is that that's how they
                                        understood the teaching of ROCOR in the past. Not a single quote from the (sobornye) decisions of the ROCOR Councils has been presented. Those individuals often say in their defense that "sobornost" of our Church includes not only hierarchs and clergy but also the lay people (the Laos), apparently meaning that their own opinion is just as good as that of the Council. Would you agree that as individuals we are fallible, our decisions and may be based on emotions, prejudices, lack of information, ignorance and besides we may be mislead by our pride and tempted by the evil one? Is there a difference between the individual opinions and the opinion of the Council?

                                        Forgive me if any of my words are hurtful.

                                        viatcheslav




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                                      • vjb
                                        Dear Michael Nikitin, ... It is true that our Synod has always been very careful with words and remains careful to this day. Those words, however, are the only
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 20, 2005
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                                          Dear Michael Nikitin,

                                          You wrote:
                                          >Our Synod was always careful with words, but one notices the hierarch's
                                          >were more stern with their words towards the MP as the years went by,
                                          >especially in their statements.

                                          It is true that our Synod has always been very careful with words and remains careful to this day. Those words, however, are the only expression of "sobornoe" opinion of our Church. Private statements made by hierarchs are only their personal opinions at different times. Our hierarchs make different statements and taken out of context they are often abused.

                                          >Metr.Anastassy stated not to have communion or any contact whatsoever with the MP.

                                          Michael, (correct me if I am wrong) ROCOR does NOT (!!!) have communion with the Moscow Patrairchate. No statement that we may have communion in the MP churches has been issued. Our hierarchs and clergy have been present at the MP services but did not concelebrate.

                                          >The Sobor of 1971 stated Patr.Pimen was not canonical and all his actions were without
                                          >merit.

                                          The decision of the Sobor still remains, "election of Pat. Pimen was NOT canonical." However, that does not mean that the Moscow Patriarchate was not a Church, or its mysteries invalid.

                                          >St.Metr.Philaret wrote the MP was without grace, which is the reason
                                          >those wishing to join ROCOR were chrismated...to bestow grace which
                                          >they were lacking.

                                          This does not make sense. If MP was without Grace they should have been rebaptised. However, that was not the case. MP clergy and laypeople were received in their dignity. And besides, to my knowledge Met. Philaret of blessed memory, has not been glorified as a saint in the ROCOR.

                                          >Bishop Averky called the MP a harlot, because they serve with anyone.
                                          >Archimandrite Constantine called the MP a Soviet Church.
                                          >Patr.Tikhon, St.Metr.Joseph of Petrograd and the Catacomb Church anathematized the
                                          >Soviets and anyone who joined with them. Metr.Sergei and those with him
                                          >joined them and thus the MP fell under their own anathema.


                                          There is a only one righteous Judge and He shall judge everyone according to their deeds. As to the anathema, your last sentence is only your own opinion. No decision as to how this anathema applies has been issued either by the ROCOR Synod or by the MP Synod.

                                          >Our Synod was careful with words, but our Hierarch's and new Martyrs of Russia,
                                          >individually, but with sobornost, spoke out.

                                          >God gave us discernment and a free will to chose. With the prayers of our previous
                                          >hierarch's and new Martyrs of Russia let us make the correct decision.


                                          viatcheslav


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