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Fw: Excellent advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov

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  • Rev. Sergei Overt
    ВОПРОСЫ СВЯЩЕННИКУ This is completely an Orthodox answer. Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right! Have we in ROCOR been consistent in this?
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
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      ������� ����������


      This is completely an Orthodox answer.
      Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
      Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
      this?
      ������:

      ����� ��� � �������� � ������� � ������� ����� ������� ��� �����, ������� �� �������. �� ������� � ����� �������, ��������� �����, ���������� ���������� ����� ������� � ������� ���������� �����. ��� ��� ���� ������? �������� �� ��� ������, ������� � ������ ������������? ������� �������������� � ������� �������� �����, ��� � ������ ��������� ����� ����� ������� ����� � �������� ����������� ��������� ������ � ����� ������� ������ �� �������������.

      ���� ����� ������


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      ��������� ������.


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      x �������



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rev. Sergei Overt
      Dear Alexander, Yes. It has been a problem in some obscure corners of ROCOR. People became ecumenist in their mindset living in diaspora among non-Orthodox.
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
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        Dear Alexander,
        Yes. It has been a problem in some obscure corners
        of ROCOR. People became "ecumenist" in
        their mindset living in diaspora among non-Orthodox.
        Many inter-married with them. Russian emigrants
        thought it was perfectly fine if "their Batiushka"
        "prays the ****Russian way**** for a non-Orthodox relative".
        Old Russian priests served pannykhidas indiscriminately.
        The son of one such old ROCOR
        priest admitted openly that his father did this for years.
        I know of a case when a priest in such
        circumstance served a pannykhida for
        a pet dog! Of course he did not know it at the
        time, but was appalled when he realized
        after the pannykhida the "friend" the woman asked the priest
        to pray for was her pet!
        Also, the influx of recent new Russian emigrants
        into ROCOR parishes has them coming to
        our churches and filling out
        the commemoration slips at the back
        of the church (to obtain a prosphora) with all sorts of
        odd names and sometimes various messages
        asking for "good fortune" and "luck".
        I wonder if all the many peoples names they write
        in these slips are baptised Orthodox or not?

        Fr.Sergei Overt

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Alex Cvejkus" <swingsitter@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:36 PM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov


        >
        >
        > Although it grieves me not being able to have a panakhida served for my
        father who died a Uniate, I am still able to light a candle for him and pray
        for him in my private prayers. I would never dream of having im remembered
        in Proskomedia. Is this a problem in other parishes?
        >
        > sinful Alexandr
        > St. Basil The Great Russian Orthodox Church
        > Belle Vernon PA (ROCOR)
        >
        > "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
        >
        > ВОПРОСЫ СВЯЩЕННИКУ
        >
        >
        > This is completely an Orthodox answer.
        > Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
        > Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
        > this?
        > Вопрос:
        >
        > Много лет я включала в записки о здравии имена близких мне людей, которые
        не крещены. Но недавно в храме женщина, продающая свечи, решительно
        отказалась взять записку с именами некрещеных людей. Как мне быть теперь?
        Является ли это грехом, который я должна исповедовать? Страшно
        самовольничать и страшно услышать ответ, что я должна исключить имена самых
        близких людей и лишиться молитвенной поддержки Церкви в своей надежде видеть
        их православными.
        >
        > раба Божия Галина
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Отвечает наместник Сретенского монастыря архимандрит Тихон (Шевкунов)
        >
        >
        > Уважаемая Галина.
        >
        >
        > Женщина в церковной лавке сказала Вам совершенно верно. Записки на
        проскомидию можно подавать только с именами крещеных людей. За близких
        людей, которые, к сожалению, не являются православными христианами, Вы
        должны от всего сердца молиться дома, подавать милостыню, можно поставить за
        них свечу перед иконой, но еще раз повторю, на проскомидии их имен поминать
        нельзя.
        >
        >
        >
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      • Rev. Sergei Overt
        Dear Nicholas, God Bless! Yes. This has been a problem in some places in ROCOR. The Ecumenistic Mindset of some ROCOR laity is the problem. These pannykhidas
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
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          Dear Nicholas,
          God Bless!
          Yes. This has been a problem in some
          places in ROCOR. The Ecumenistic
          Mindset of some ROCOR laity is
          the problem.
          These pannykhidas for non-Orthodox an example
          of ROCOR Ecumenism of the "home grown"
          variety.
          Fr.Sergei


          > I'm genuinely puzzled by this post. I don't wish to sound arrogant, but
          has there ever been any question about this? I thought that this was
          something every Orthodox knew as surely as they know to venerate icons upon
          entering a church. Is this a widespread problem?
          >
          >
          >
          > The unworthy servant of God
          >
          > Nicholas Steblez
        • Alex Cvejkus
          Although it grieves me not being able to have a panakhida served for my father who died a Uniate, I am still able to light a candle for him and pray for him in
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
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            Although it grieves me not being able to have a panakhida served for my father who died a Uniate, I am still able to light a candle for him and pray for him in my private prayers. I would never dream of having im remembered in Proskomedia. Is this a problem in other parishes?

            sinful Alexandr
            St. Basil The Great Russian Orthodox Church
            Belle Vernon PA (ROCOR)

            "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:

            ������� ����������


            This is completely an Orthodox answer.
            Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
            Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
            this?
            ������:

            ����� ��� � �������� � ������� � ������� ����� ������� ��� �����, ������� �� �������. �� ������� � ����� �������, ��������� �����, ���������� ���������� ����� ������� � ������� ���������� �����. ��� ��� ���� ������? �������� �� ��� ������, ������� � ������ ������������? ������� �������������� � ������� �������� �����, ��� � ������ ��������� ����� ����� ������� ����� � �������� ����������� ��������� ������ � ����� ������� ������ �� �������������.

            ���� ����� ������


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            ��������� ������.


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          • Nicholas Steblez
            Dear Fr. Sergei Father bless I m genuinely puzzled by this post. I don t wish to sound arrogant, but has there ever been any question about this? I thought
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
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              Dear Fr. Sergei



              Father bless



              I'm genuinely puzzled by this post. I don't wish to sound arrogant, but has there ever been any question about this? I thought that this was something every Orthodox knew as surely as they know to venerate icons upon entering a church. Is this a widespread problem?



              The unworthy servant of God

              Nicholas Steblez


              "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:

              ������� ����������


              This is completely an Orthodox answer.
              Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
              Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
              this?
              ������:

              ����� ��� � �������� � ������� � ������� ����� ������� ��� �����, ������� �� �������. �� ������� � ����� �������, ��������� �����, ���������� ���������� ����� ������� � ������� ���������� �����. ��� ��� ���� ������? �������� �� ��� ������, ������� � ������ ������������? ������� �������������� � ������� �������� �����, ��� � ������ ��������� ����� ����� ������� ����� � �������� ����������� ��������� ������ � ����� ������� ������ �� �������������.

              ���� ����� ������


              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              �������� ��������� ����������� ��������� ����������� ����� (��������)


              ��������� ������.


              ������� � ��������� ����� ������� ��� ���������� �����. ������� �� ����������� ����� �������� ������ � ������� �������� �����. �� ������� �����, �������, � ���������, �� �������� ������������� �����������, �� ������ �� ����� ������ �������� ����, �������� ���������, ����� ��������� �� ��� ����� ����� ������, �� ��� ��� �������, �� ����������� �� ���� �������� ������.



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            • Rev. Sergei Overt
              No, Fr. Alexis. ... From: Fr. Alexis Duncan To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:14 AM Subject: RE:
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
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                No, Fr. Alexis.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Fr. Alexis Duncan" <7848@...>
                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:14 AM
                Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov


                >
                > Yes.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Fr. Alexis Duncan
                > Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                > Atlanta, GA
                > www.orthodoxinfo.biz
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:15 AM
                > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr.
                > Tikhon Shevkunov
                >
                >
                >
                > ВОПРОСЫ СВЯЩЕННИКУ
                >
                >
                > This is completely an Orthodox answer.
                > Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
                > Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
                > this?
                > Вопрос:
                >
                > Много лет я включала в записки о здравии имена близких
                > мне людей, которые не крещены. Но недавно в храме женщина,
                > продающая свечи, решительно отказалась взять записку с
                > именами некрещеных людей. Как мне быть теперь? Является ли
                > это грехом, который я должна исповедовать? Страшно
                > самовольничать и страшно услышать ответ, что я должна
                > исключить имена самых близких людей и лишиться молитвенной
                > поддержки Церкви в своей надежде видеть их православными.
                >
                > раба Божия Галина
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------
                > --------------
                > Отвечает наместник Сретенского монастыря архимандрит
                > Тихон (Шевкунов)
                >
                >
                > Уважаемая Галина.
                >
                >
                > Женщина в церковной лавке сказала Вам совершенно
                > верно. Записки на проскомидию можно подавать только с
                > именами крещеных людей. За близких людей, которые, к
                > сожалению, не являются православными христианами, Вы должны
                > от всего сердца молиться дома, подавать милостыню, можно
                > поставить за них свечу перед иконой, но еще раз повторю, на
                > проскомидии их имен поминать нельзя.
                >
                >
                >
                > x закрыть
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
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              • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                Yes. Fr. Alexis Duncan Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church Atlanta, GA www.orthodoxinfo.biz ... From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@3web.net]
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                  Yes.






                  Fr. Alexis Duncan
                  Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                  Atlanta, GA
                  www.orthodoxinfo.biz



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:15 AM
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr.
                  Tikhon Shevkunov



                  ВОПРОСЫ СВЯЩЕННИКУ


                  This is completely an Orthodox answer.
                  Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
                  Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
                  this?
                  Вопрос:

                  Много лет я включала в записки о здравии имена близких
                  мне людей, которые не крещены. Но недавно в храме женщина,
                  продающая свечи, решительно отказалась взять записку с
                  именами некрещеных людей. Как мне быть теперь? Является ли
                  это грехом, который я должна исповедовать? Страшно
                  самовольничать и страшно услышать ответ, что я должна
                  исключить имена самых близких людей и лишиться молитвенной
                  поддержки Церкви в своей надежде видеть их православными.

                  раба Божия Галина


                  ------------------------------------------------------------
                  --------------
                  Отвечает наместник Сретенского монастыря архимандрит
                  Тихон (Шевкунов)


                  Уважаемая Галина.


                  Женщина в церковной лавке сказала Вам совершенно
                  верно. Записки на проскомидию можно подавать только с
                  именами крещеных людей. За близких людей, которые, к
                  сожалению, не являются православными христианами, Вы должны
                  от всего сердца молиться дома, подавать милостыню, можно
                  поставить за них свечу перед иконой, но еще раз повторю, на
                  проскомидии их имен поминать нельзя.



                  x закрыть



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                • Rev. Sergei Overt
                  Don t worry about it Paul. I think its mostly a Russian problem in ROCOR. The non-Russian zealous converts in ROCOR who are conscious of their Orthodox faith
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                    Don't worry about it Paul.
                    I think its mostly a Russian problem
                    in ROCOR.
                    The non-Russian zealous converts
                    in ROCOR who are conscious of
                    their Orthodox faith unlike
                    many ROCOR Russians who are
                    "mezhdu prochem pravoslavniye" -
                    are obedient to their priest and do
                    as he says without threatening him
                    in any way!
                    Fr.S.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                    To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:45 PM
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov


                    >
                    > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Nicholas Steblez wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear Fr. Sergei
                    > >
                    > > Father bless
                    > >
                    > > I'm genuinely puzzled by this post. [...]
                    > >
                    > > "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ÂÎÏÐÎÑÛ ÑÂßÙÅÍÍÈÊÓ
                    > >
                    > > This is completely an Orthodox answer.
                    > > Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
                    > > Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
                    > > this?
                    > > Âîïðîñ:
                    > >
                    > > Ìíîãî ëåò ÿ âêëþ÷àëà â çàïèñêè î çäðàâèè [etc.]
                    >
                    > If this statment is so valuable, would it be possible for someone
                    > to summarize it in English for the benefit of those who do not know
                    > Russian. ("You say you're Orthodox? How come you don't speak
                    > Russian?" Sound familiar, anyone?)
                    >
                    > --
                    > Paul Bartlett
                    > PGP key info in message headers
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
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                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Rev. Sergei Overt
                    ... From: aprmih To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:06 PM Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "aprmih" <aprmih@...>
                      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:06 PM
                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Commemoration of the Heterodox (Was: Excellent
                      advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov)


                      >
                      I attended Zakon Bozhii! I even paid attention! ;-) Why is
                      > it that up until that conference, the best anyone could say is "we
                      > don't sing panikhidas for them because they are not orthodox"???
                      >
                      > Alex


                      Dear Alex,
                      The problem is that we Russians in ROCOR took
                      all of this for granted. Everyone thought our
                      church life would somehow automatically continue.
                      The secular world has had a toll on ROCOR
                      as on other Orthodox communities in the Diaspora.
                      Living outside of Orthodox countries everyone
                      must make a conscious individual choice if they
                      will remain a ****practicing**** Orthodox Christian or not.
                      It must be made clear that you can not have it "both ways".
                      Be Orthodox by custom and family tradition and live
                      by morals and standards of the non-Orthodox around you.
                      It is frightening at times to even imagine.....
                      Do we really have people in our parishes that
                      believe in various strange new age and other fashionable
                      pluralistic religious ideas they learn in society, on TV,
                      in schools ect.... and attend the Orthodox Liturgy
                      and then sing the Creed as a statement of faith?
                      You cannot believe "what ****you****want" (something
                      not accepted by the Church) and still consider yourself
                      to be Orthodox. This might have happened in some places.
                      What does being Orthodox mean to our ROCOR
                      old emigrants? What does it mean to their children
                      and grandchildren? Over the years I have found
                      some bewildering answers to these questions
                      in various corners of ROCOR.......
                      The children of the old emigrants in many places were
                      never told they had to make a ****clear and definite****
                      choice to be Orthodox! This I believe was the problem!
                      Attending our ROCOR Youth conferences is a good start.
                      This should be encouraged. What is sad is that only a small
                      present of our ROCOR youth attend these events.
                      People find time for other things, but not for learning about
                      their faith.
                      Fr.Sergei Overt
                    • Rev. Sergei Overt
                      Alex, I would like to add that besides going to youth conferences, reading Christian literature, not always even strict traditional Orthodox literature, is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                        Alex,
                        I would like to add that besides going to youth
                        conferences, reading Christian literature,
                        not always even strict traditional Orthodox
                        literature, is good for certain Russian Orthodox
                        families that are "not that religious".
                        For example there are many good books
                        available at www.light-n-life.com.
                        Many children's books,
                        books for teenagers and so on.
                        Our strict traditional Orthodox literature is
                        good, but there are people attending
                        our parishes that are in need of
                        understanding simple Christian principles
                        with just a flavouring of Orthodoxy.
                        (They "can't handle" too much!)
                        The children's books at Light and Life
                        are an excellent selection.
                        Also, our ROCOR people should be encouraged
                        to ****spend money**** on Orthodox books
                        for their children, it's worth it in spiritual ways
                        in the long run.
                        Our Russian emigrants always encouraged their children
                        to study and learn, to have good grades and so on.
                        The problem was that not everyone encouraged
                        their children to study Orthodoxy!

                        Fr. Sergei Overt

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:13 AM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Commemoration of the Heterodox (Was:
                        Excellent advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov)


                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "aprmih" <aprmih@...>
                        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:06 PM
                        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Commemoration of the Heterodox (Was:
                        Excellent
                        > advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov)
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > I attended Zakon Bozhii! I even paid attention! ;-) Why is
                        > > it that up until that conference, the best anyone could say is "we
                        > > don't sing panikhidas for them because they are not orthodox"???
                        > >
                        > > Alex
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Alex,
                        > The problem is that we Russians in ROCOR took
                        > all of this for granted. Everyone thought our
                        > church life would somehow automatically continue.
                        > The secular world has had a toll on ROCOR
                        > as on other Orthodox communities in the Diaspora.
                        > Living outside of Orthodox countries everyone
                        > must make a conscious individual choice if they
                        > will remain a ****practicing**** Orthodox Christian or not.
                        > It must be made clear that you can not have it "both ways".
                        > Be Orthodox by custom and family tradition and live
                        > by morals and standards of the non-Orthodox around you.
                        > It is frightening at times to even imagine.....
                        > Do we really have people in our parishes that
                        > believe in various strange new age and other fashionable
                        > pluralistic religious ideas they learn in society, on TV,
                        > in schools ect.... and attend the Orthodox Liturgy
                        > and then sing the Creed as a statement of faith?
                        > You cannot believe "what ****you****want" (something
                        > not accepted by the Church) and still consider yourself
                        > to be Orthodox. This might have happened in some places.
                        > What does being Orthodox mean to our ROCOR
                        > old emigrants? What does it mean to their children
                        > and grandchildren? Over the years I have found
                        > some bewildering answers to these questions
                        > in various corners of ROCOR.......
                        > The children of the old emigrants in many places were
                        > never told they had to make a ****clear and definite****
                        > choice to be Orthodox! This I believe was the problem!
                        > Attending our ROCOR Youth conferences is a good start.
                        > This should be encouraged. What is sad is that only a small
                        > present of our ROCOR youth attend these events.
                        > People find time for other things, but not for learning about
                        > their faith.
                        > Fr.Sergei Overt
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Hristofor
                        As a layperson, I agree with Fr Sergei. I am sure if priests would ask their congregation to raise their hands if they write the names of the heterodox (on
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                          As a layperson, I agree with Fr Sergei. I am sure if priests would ask
                          their congregation to raise their hands if they write the names of the
                          heterodox (on commemoration slips), they would be surprised by the
                          response. If this knowledge was not passed down from parent to child in
                          emigration, how would someone know they should NOT commemorate the
                          non-Orthodox? I can't honestly recall ever seeing a sign about this near
                          the candle stand in any parish, with the exception of churches in
                          Russia. I myself learned this when I was a teenager and we had left the
                          OCA. It might be mentioned in an instructional brochure at the back of
                          the church, but most cradle-ROCA never bother to read them, since
                          ostensibly they already know everything.

                          And frankly, the number of cradle-ROCAs who walk around, lighting
                          candles during Shestopsalmie, the Gospel , and the Eucharistic Canon,
                          is well, astonishing.

                          To tell you the truth, I only recently learned that you are not supposed
                          to light candles for non-Orthodox during Divine Liturgy; candles should
                          be lit after the Eucharist is celebrated and during Vigil (with the
                          assumption that they would burn down by the time the next Liturgy is
                          celebrated.) Perhaps some priests could comment on this? On the bright
                          side, I think that most people know not to ask for a panihida for a
                          non-Orthodox... I hope...

                          Hristofor
                          Rev. Sergei Overt пишет:

                          >No, Fr. Alexis.
                          >
                          >----- Original Message -----
                          >From: "Fr. Alexis Duncan" <7848@...>
                          >To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:14 AM
                          >Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>Yes.
                          >>
                          >>Fr. Alexis Duncan
                          >>Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                          >>Atlanta, GA
                          >>www.orthodoxinfo.biz
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>-----Original Message-----
                          >>From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@...]
                          >>Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:15 AM
                          >>To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          >>Subject: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr.
                          >>Tikhon Shevkunov
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>ВОПРОСЫ СВЯЩЕННИКУ
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>This is completely an Orthodox answer.
                          >>Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
                          >>Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
                          >>this?
                          >> Вопрос:
                          >>
                          >> Много лет я включала в записки о здравии имена близких
                          >>мне людей, которые не крещены. Но недавно в храме женщина,
                          >>продающая свечи, решительно отказалась взять записку с
                          >>именами некрещеных людей. Как мне быть теперь? Является ли
                          >>это грехом, который я должна исповедовать? Страшно
                          >>самовольничать и страшно услышать ответ, что я должна
                          >>исключить имена самых близких людей и лишиться молитвенной
                          >>поддержки Церкви в своей надежде видеть их православными.
                          >>
                          >> раба Божия Галина
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>------------------------------------------------------------
                          >>--------------
                          >> Отвечает наместник Сретенского монастыря архимандрит
                          >>Тихон (Шевкунов)
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Уважаемая Галина.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Женщина в церковной лавке сказала Вам совершенно
                          >>верно. Записки на проскомидию можно подавать только с
                          >>именами крещеных людей. За близких людей, которые, к
                          >>сожалению, не являются православными христианами, Вы должны
                          >>от всего сердца молиться дома, подавать милостыню, можно
                          >>поставить за них свечу перед иконой, но еще раз повторю, на
                          >>проскомидии их имен поминать нельзя.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> x закрыть
                          >>
                        • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                          Yo. Fr. Alexis Duncan Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church Atlanta, GA www.orthodoxinfo.biz ... From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@3web.net]
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                            Yo.






                            Fr. Alexis Duncan
                            Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                            Atlanta, GA
                            www.orthodoxinfo.biz



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 1:16 AM
                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr.
                            Tikhon Shevkunov



                            No, Fr. Alexis.


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Fr. Alexis Duncan" <7848@...>
                            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:14 AM
                            Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr.
                            Tikhon Shevkunov


                            >
                            > Yes.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Fr. Alexis Duncan
                            > Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                            > Atlanta, GA
                            > www.orthodoxinfo.biz
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Rev. Sergei Overt [mailto:frsovert@...]
                            > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:15 AM
                            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Fw: Excellent advice from Fr.
                            > Tikhon Shevkunov
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ВОПРОСЫ СВЯЩЕННИКУ
                            >
                            >
                            > This is completely an Orthodox answer.
                            > Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
                            > Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
                            > this?
                            > Вопрос:
                            >
                            > Много лет я включала в записки о здравии имена
                            близких
                            > мне людей, которые не крещены. Но недавно в храме женщина,
                            > продающая свечи, решительно отказалась взять записку с
                            > именами некрещеных людей. Как мне быть теперь? Является ли
                            > это грехом, который я должна исповедовать? Страшно
                            > самовольничать и страшно услышать ответ, что я должна
                            > исключить имена самых близких людей и лишиться молитвенной
                            > поддержки Церкви в своей надежде видеть их православными.
                            >
                            > раба Божия Галина
                            >
                            >
                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            --
                            > --------------
                            > Отвечает наместник Сретенского монастыря архимандрит
                            > Тихон (Шевкунов)
                            >
                            >
                            > Уважаемая Галина.
                            >
                            >
                            > Женщина в церковной лавке сказала Вам совершенно
                            > верно. Записки на проскомидию можно подавать только с
                            > именами крещеных людей. За близких людей, которые, к
                            > сожалению, не являются православными христианами, Вы
                            должны
                            > от всего сердца молиться дома, подавать милостыню, можно
                            > поставить за них свечу перед иконой, но еще раз повторю,
                            на
                            > проскомидии их имен поминать нельзя.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > x закрыть
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • aprmih
                            ... The problem is that people are under the impression that, in denying such things, the priests are being mean and are unjustly punishing the heterodox for
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>


                              > ... On the bright side, I think that most people know not
                              > to ask for panihida for a non-Orthodox... I hope...

                              > Hristofor


                              The problem is that people are under the impression that, in denying
                              such things, the priests are being "mean" and are unjustly punishing
                              the heterodox for simply for being heterodox. Therefore some of them
                              take it upon themselves to right this "injustice" by omitting the
                              identity of the person to the priest.

                              When the question about panikhidas came up at one of our ROCA youth
                              conferences (many, many years ago), one of the speakers explained
                              that the reason the Church "forbids" panikhidas for non-Orthodox is
                              out of pity and not out of "meanness". The reasoning being that the
                              non-Orthodox would derive little (if any) benefit from a panikhida
                              and that therefore the soul of the departed would, instead of being
                              comforted and helped, suffer even more at being reminded what it's
                              missing (needless to say, if I completely misunderstood this
                              explanation, would someone please correct me?).

                              Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I think that for most of the
                              cradle orthodox attending that conference, this was the first time
                              they heard the question explained in this manner. I will even go so
                              far as to say that it's likely that the priests who performed
                              panikhidas for the non-orthodox were not aware of the reasoning
                              behind the rule. My question is why? Why did it take 22 years for
                              someone to give me such a reasonable explanation? I went to Russian
                              school! I attended Zakon Bozhii! I even paid attention! ;-) Why is
                              it that up until that conference, the best anyone could say is "we
                              don't sing panikhidas for them because they are not orthodox"???

                              Alex
                            • Athanasios Jayne
                              I have seen commemoration slips at a convent which were, I think, well done. They had 2 different slips--one for the names of the Orthodox (to be prayed for
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                I have seen commemoration slips at a
                                convent which were, I think, well done.
                                They had 2 different slips--one for the
                                names of the Orthodox (to be prayed
                                for liturgically), and one for the non-Orthodox
                                to be prayed for (non-liturgically). The
                                slips simply said "Orthodox" and
                                "Non-Orthodox."

                                I think it would be good to adopt this
                                practice at the parish level.

                                Athanasios.
                              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                ... supposed ... some priests could comment on this? JRS: No, you have been misinformed about that. Of course you can light candles for the non-Orthodox --
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                  Hristofor wrote:

                                  > To tell you the truth, I only recently learned that you are not
                                  supposed
                                  > to light candles for non-Orthodox during Divine Liturgy; ... Perhaps
                                  some priests could comment on this?

                                  JRS: No, you have been misinformed about that.

                                  Of course you can "light candles for the non-Orthodox" -- at Liturgy,
                                  or at any other time!

                                  Since, when you light a candle, no one except you knows whom you are
                                  praying for, this is a *private* prayer -- and we not only can, but
                                  should, commemorate our non-Orthodox parents, relatives and other dear
                                  ones, in our *private* prayers.

                                  In general, there are no official rules about lighting candles, except
                                  that this should not be done in a manner, or at a time, when it is
                                  disruptive to the service or to the prayers of others.


                                  In Christ
                                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                                • frraphver
                                  This may make sense where at proskomedia the priest removes one particle for every Orthodox name & then wouldn t take out a particle for non-Orthodox names.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                    This may make sense where at proskomedia the priest removes one
                                    particle for every Orthodox name & then wouldn't take out a particle
                                    for non-Orthodox names. But in some of our parishes there are so
                                    many names one piece only for the living & one piece for the
                                    departed is removed from the prosphora for all the names read. I
                                    think that also in the Byzantine tradition where one loaf is used
                                    particles are not taken out for each name read. In this case I have
                                    always wondered about the non-Orthodox names on the commemoration
                                    slips or books.
                                    In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

                                    But in the Byzantine--- In orthodox-
                                    synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@j...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have seen commemoration slips at a
                                    > convent which were, I think, well done.
                                    > They had 2 different slips--one for the
                                    > names of the Orthodox (to be prayed
                                    > for liturgically), and one for the non-Orthodox
                                    > to be prayed for (non-liturgically). The
                                    > slips simply said "Orthodox" and
                                    > "Non-Orthodox."
                                    >
                                    > I think it would be good to adopt this
                                    > practice at the parish level.
                                    >
                                    > Athanasios.
                                  • Paul O. BARTLETT
                                    ... If this statment is so valuable, would it be possible for someone to summarize it in English for the benefit of those who do not know Russian. ( You say
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                      On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Nicholas Steblez wrote:

                                      > Dear Fr. Sergei
                                      >
                                      > Father bless
                                      >
                                      > I'm genuinely puzzled by this post. [...]
                                      >
                                      > "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > ÂÎÏÐÎÑÛ ÑÂßÙÅÍÍÈÊÓ
                                      >
                                      > This is completely an Orthodox answer.
                                      > Fr. Tikhon Shevkunov is absolutely right!
                                      > Have we in ROCOR been consistent in
                                      > this?
                                      > Âîïðîñ:
                                      >
                                      > Ìíîãî ëåò ÿ âêëþ÷àëà â çàïèñêè î çäðàâèè [etc.]

                                      If this statment is so valuable, would it be possible for someone
                                      to summarize it in English for the benefit of those who do not know
                                      Russian. ("You say you're Orthodox? How come you don't speak
                                      Russian?" Sound familiar, anyone?)

                                      --
                                      Paul Bartlett
                                      PGP key info in message headers
                                    • Hristofor
                                      ... A believer [in Russia] for many years included the names of those unbaptised. Recently, the lady at the candle stand categorically refused to accept
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                        Paul O. BARTLETT пишет:

                                        > If this statment is so valuable, would it be possible for someone
                                        >to summarize it in English for the benefit of those who do not know
                                        >Russian. ("You say you're Orthodox? How come you don't speak
                                        >Russian?" Sound familiar, anyone?)
                                        >
                                        A believer [in Russia] for many years included the names of those
                                        unbaptised. Recently, the lady at the candle stand categorically refused
                                        to accept commemoration slips with those unbaptised. What should I do?
                                        Is this a sin which needs to be confessed? It is fearful to be
                                        disobedient and it is fearful to hear the answer, that I must exclude
                                        the names of my dearest and also strip them of prayerful support of the
                                        Church, in the hopes of [eventually] seeing them Orthodox.

                                        The response from Fr Tihon: The lady was correct. Commemoration slips
                                        for the Proskomedia may only contain the names of the baptised. For
                                        those who unfortunately are not Orthodox Christians, you must pray for
                                        them with all your heart at home, give alms [in their name], light a
                                        candle for them at an ikon, but I repeat, their names may not be
                                        commemorated at the Proskomedia.
                                      • Hristofor
                                        Thanks. Stand corrected.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                          Thanks. Stand corrected.

                                          Fr. John R. Shaw пишет:

                                          >JRS: No, you have been misinformed about that.
                                          >
                                          >Of course you can "light candles for the non-Orthodox" -- at Liturgy,
                                          >or at any other time!
                                          >
                                          >Since, when you light a candle, no one except you knows whom you are
                                          >praying for, this is a *private* prayer -- and we not only can, but
                                          >should, commemorate our non-Orthodox parents, relatives and other dear
                                          >ones, in our *private* prayers.
                                          >
                                          >In general, there are no official rules about lighting candles, except
                                          >that this should not be done in a manner, or at a time, when it is
                                          >disruptive to the service or to the prayers of others.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >In Christ
                                          >Fr. John R. Shaw
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                          ... JRS: There is no rule that one particle or crumb must represent every name, and even those clergy who generate a huge pile of crumbs, do not really have an
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                            Fr. Raphael Vereschack wrote:

                                            > This may make sense where at proskomedia the priest removes one
                                            > particle for every Orthodox name & then wouldn't take out a particle
                                            > for non-Orthodox names.

                                            JRS: There is no rule that one particle or crumb must represent every
                                            name, and even those clergy who generate a huge pile of crumbs, do not
                                            really have an exact relationship between every particle and every name.

                                            Furthermore, since these crumbs are *not consecrated*, and not given in
                                            communion, a huge pile of them only complicates the celebration of the
                                            Liturgy, especially for the deacon who must consume the Holy Gifts.

                                            > In this case I have
                                            > always wondered about the non-Orthodox names on the commemoration
                                            > slips or books.

                                            JRS: There is no way to be sure about "Orthodox" and "non-Orthodox
                                            names".

                                            A name can appear on a slip, and look non-Orthodox: but this can be
                                            misleading.

                                            For example: in Chicago a lady named Ludmilla was known as "Louise",
                                            and another Ludmilla was "Lu-Ann".

                                            In Connecticut years ago, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff had a parishioner
                                            named "Chester", who had been baptized in the OCA before the parish's
                                            temporary period in ROCOR, and who had attended only that church; when
                                            he visited Chicago, he could not say who his patron Saint was.

                                            "Bill" can turn out to be "Vassili", and I knew a "Carl" who was
                                            really "Kirill".

                                            On the other hand, many non-Orthodox people have perfectly Orthodox
                                            *names*: e.g. the late Natasha Rambova was neither Russian nor Orthodox.

                                            In Christ
                                            Fr. John R. Shaw
                                          • frraphver
                                            ... every name, and even those clergy who generate a huge pile of crumbs, do not really have an exact relationship between every particle and every name.
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                                              <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                              > JRS: There is no rule that one particle or crumb must represent
                                              every name, and even those clergy who generate a huge pile of
                                              crumbs, do not really have an exact relationship between every
                                              particle and every name.
                                              Furthermore, since these crumbs are *not consecrated*, and not
                                              given in communion, a huge pile of them only complicates the
                                              celebration of the Liturgy, especially for the deacon who must
                                              consume the Holy Gifts.

                                              Fr Raphael Vereshack: It has taken me a number of years to reach
                                              this same conclusion both from the evidence of the proskomedia
                                              itself and by watching what other priests do. But some speak of the
                                              particles almost as if they were 'consecrated'; ie if there is not
                                              one particle for each name read then the person is not really prayed
                                              for. I think this whole subject needs to be addressed more clearly.

                                              > > In this case I have
                                              > > always wondered about the non-Orthodox names on the
                                              commemoration
                                              > > slips or books.
                                              >
                                              > JRS: There is no way to be sure about "Orthodox" and "non-Orthodox
                                              > names".
                                              >
                                              >Fr RV: I wasn't expressing myself clearly. I meant "names of non-
                                              Orthodox people".
                                              In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                                            • Stephen/Στέφανος
                                              Thank you very much Hristofor for translating this........... As a person who is half Greek and half Anglo, I have a whole side of my family (not to
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                                Thank you very much Hristofor for translating this........... As a
                                                person who is half Greek and half Anglo, I have a whole side of my
                                                family (not to mention friends) who are not Orthodox. It is wonderful
                                                to know that I can pray for them in every other way, with the exception
                                                of the Proskomide. I have long prayed earnestly for them at home, lit
                                                candles for them in church, and given alms in their memory; but always
                                                with a little guilt, that I might be doing something wrong. I find Fr.
                                                Tikhon's words very comforting.

                                                Stephanos


                                                Hristofor wrote:

                                                > Paul O. BARTLETT пишет:
                                                >
                                                > > If this statment is so valuable, would it be possible for someone
                                                > >to summarize it in English for the benefit of those who do not know
                                                > >Russian. ("You say you're Orthodox? How come you don't speak
                                                > >Russian?" Sound familiar, anyone?)
                                                > >
                                                > A believer [in Russia] for many years included the names of those
                                                > unbaptised. Recently, the lady at the candle stand categorically refused
                                                > to accept commemoration slips with those unbaptised. What should I do?
                                                > Is this a sin which needs to be confessed? It is fearful to be
                                                > disobedient and it is fearful to hear the answer, that I must exclude
                                                > the names of my dearest and also strip them of prayerful support of the
                                                > Church, in the hopes of [eventually] seeing them Orthodox.
                                                >
                                                > The response from Fr Tihon: The lady was correct. Commemoration slips
                                                > for the Proskomedia may only contain the names of the baptised. For
                                                > those who unfortunately are not Orthodox Christians, you must pray for
                                                > them with all your heart at home, give alms [in their name], light a
                                                > candle for them at an ikon, but I repeat, their names may not be
                                                > commemorated at the Proskomedia.
                                                >
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