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Re: Should ROCOR repent?

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father Raphael, bless. Heb. 5:11-14 says that we are to discern the good from the evil in a person s or organisation s life and behaviour. 1 Cor. 2:15:
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 8, 2004
      Dear Father Raphael, bless.

      Heb. 5:11-14 says that we are to discern the good from the evil in a
      person's or organisation's life and behaviour.

      1 Cor. 2:15: "he that is spiritual judges all things…"

      We are to use discernment to appreciate a thing's true value, and to
      appreciate the gravity of sins. The MP is the embodiment of the
      treason of Christ's Church. ROCOR has been the witness of Christ, in
      spite of her sins.

      Teaching that both organisations are even because they are both in
      need of repentance is spreading confusion and refusing to judge as
      we are expected to do. It is betraying Christ again.

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
      <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
      > >
      > > What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is
      in
      > > need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism
      >
      > Dear Vladimir:
      > I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my
      question
      > constitutes sophism.
      > I agree that there is a need for repentance on the part of some
      > individuals in the MP (the Church itself cannot repent, but the
      > sinners within it should). My problem with your post was that you
      > seemed to be saying members of ROCOR had no need of repentance. As
      a
      > member of ROCOR 1978-1999, I disagree with you.
      > Now in your later post you are declaring that there are levels of
      > repentance - along the lines of "we dont have to repent as much as
      > you". This is a new one on me: Scriptural, Patristic, Conciliar
      > references please?
      > God bless / Fr Daniel
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father Basil, I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is difficult to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all that
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 10, 2004
        Dear Father Basil,

        I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is difficult
        to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all
        that we have known about the MP denying that sergianism had even a
        definition.

        In spite of all, Father Alexander (who, for some time, shared with
        the MP the idea that sergianism cannot be defined) advises us that
        the MP has now confessed sergianism, condemned it and repented.

        Who would dare make such a dramatic announcement if it were not
        true? Anyway, it will or will not be published very soon. The whole
        world will know whether this was true or not. Do you understand what
        risk Father Alexander would take for his credibility if it turned
        out to be false?

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, byakimov@c... wrote:
        >
        > Dear Vladimir
        >
        > I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP
        double
        > standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as
        before.... I
        > have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working
        documents of
        > the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism
        in the way
        > you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time
        soon...maybe I
        > missed something they officially said this week....
        >
        >
        > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM
        >
        > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        > cc:
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Father Alexander, bless.
        >
        > You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
        > firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
        > and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
        > convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".
        >
        > VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
        > What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
        > that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
        > direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
        > about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
        > you posted this message.
        >
        > Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
        > this topic.
        >
        > So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
        > that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
        > II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
        > agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
        > At last, things are becoming clear again.
        >
        > I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
        > rejoice.
        >
        > Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by
        the
        > MP?
        >
        > In God,
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
        > <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
        > > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > >Dear Athanasios,
        > > >
        > > >The questions are:
        > > >
        > > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
        > > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
        > claiming
        > > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
        > > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
        > soon
        > > >when persecutions come again?
        > > >
        > > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
        > orthodox
        > > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as
        refusing
        > > >it because we all sin".
        > > >
        > > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
        > What
        > > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
        > > >
        > > >In God,
        > > >
        > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
        > confusion, with
        > > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
        > position is
        > > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
        > correct and
        > > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
        > again.
        > >
        > > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
        > >
        > > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the
        ROCOR
        > for
        > > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
        > key
        > > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is
        also
        > deeply
        > > wrong.
        > >
        > > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate
        just
        > > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
        > including
        > > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
        > that in the
        > > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
        > the Truth
        > > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
        > >
        > > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
        > his eyes
        > > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
        > continue to
        > > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
        > rather
        > > than what is real.
        > >
        > > Sad.
        > >
        > >
        > > With love in Christ,
        > >
        > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        > >
      • vkozyreff
        Dear List, Thank to Father Alexander, we have just been advised about the progress that has been made, at last, in agreeing between ourselves and with the MP
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2004
          Dear List,

          Thank to Father Alexander, we have just been advised about the
          progress that has been made, at last, in agreeing between ourselves
          and with the MP that sergianism is a horrible sin that should never
          be repeated.

          We have been glad to hear that the MP has already stated that, in
          case of persecution, the path or the martyrs will have to be
          followed and not that of Met. Sergius. Glory to God.

          It seems thus appropriate to secure this thinking among ourselves as
          a cement of our unity in Christ, and to mark the end of the
          confusion about sergianism that has reigned for a while in our
          circles, in the hurry to join the MP.

          Please see below a report about sergianism by HIEROMARTYR ANDREW,
          ARCHBISHOP OF UFA. I suggest that we unite in rejecting this
          fundamentally unorthodox doctrine.

          I suggest to, pay great attention to the excerpt right below, about
          the frequent temptation (even in ROCOR) to consider the hierarchy,
          not the totality of the believers as being the Church:

          "Besides, they consider (the sergianist) that they, that is, the
          hierarchs, are the Church, in spite of the teaching of the Apostle
          Paul:

          "But I consider that the holy Church is constituted by all the
          believers, all the sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ

          "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus"
          (Galatians 3.26),

          the whole people of God, the living stones from which the spiritual
          house is being built

          "and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual
          house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
          acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"(I Peter 2.5),

          the Body of Christ on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets,
          Christ Jesus being the head corner-stone; and it is, therefore,
          called a temple".

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff

          On October 4, 1932 Archbishop Andrew wrote:


          "After Peter, Metropolitan Sergius took his place, having obtained
          it in a completely anti-canonical manner. This Metropolitan Sergius'
          administration can be characterised in the words: hypocrisy and
          cynical dishonour. Whereas the Lord Himself demands from His
          followers, first of all, that they should avoid the leaven of the
          Pharisees

          "Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that
          they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to
          his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the
          Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"(Luke 12.1)

          and the leaven of Herod

          "Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the
          Pharisees and that of Herod." (Mark8.15),

          while honourableness is considered the elementary virtue of every
          citizen and a still more necessary virtue for a bishop

          "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one
          wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to
          teach" (I Timothy 3.2).

          The same leaven of Herod has forced Metropolitan Sergius and all
          those communicating with him to violate the 30th Apostolic Canon

          Canon XXX. (XXXI.) If any bishop obtain possession of a church by
          the aid of the temporal powers, let him be deposed and
          excommunicated, and all who communicate with him,

          the 3rd Canon of the Seventh Ecumenical Council

          CANON III. That it does not pertain to princes to choose a
          Bishop. "LET every election of a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, made
          by princes stand null, according to the canon which says:

          If any bishop making use of the secular powers shall by their means
          obtain jurisdiction over any church, he shall be deposed, and also
          excommunicated, together with all who remain in communion with him.
          For he who is raised to the episcopate must be chosen by bishops, as
          was decreed by the holy fathers of Nice in the canon which says:

          It is most fitting that a bishop be ordained by all the bishops in
          the province; but if this is difficult to arrange, either on account
          of urgent necessity, or because of the length of the journey, three
          bishops at least having met together and given their votes, those
          also who are absent having signified their assent by letters, the
          ordination shall take place. The confirmation of what is thus done,
          shall in each province be given by the metropolitan thereof".

          and very many others. In general the sins of Sergius and his
          dishonourable Synod are evident and all in all can be called `the
          dishonourable heresy of the slanderers of Christianity' (The Seventh
          Ecumenical Council, canon 7).

          CANON VII. That to churches consecrated without any deposit of the
          reliques of the Saints, the defect should be made good.

          PAUL the divine Apostle says: "The sins of some are open beforehand,
          and some they follow after."

          These are their primary sins, and other sins follow these.
          Accordingly upon the heels of the heresy of the traducers of the
          Christians, there followed close other ungodliness. For as they took
          out of the churches the presence of the venerable images, so
          likewise they cast aside other customs which we must now revive and
          maintain in accordance with the written and unwritten law.

          We decree therefore that relics shall be placed with the accustomed
          service in as many of the sacred temples as have been consecrated
          without the relics of the Martyrs. And if any bishop from this time
          forward is found consecrating a temple without holy relics, he shall
          be deposed, as a transgressor of the ecclesiastical traditions.

          This heresy is more evil that the heresy of slandering the holy
          icons (iconoclasm). It is a new union with unbelief, bound up with
          the establishment of completely ant ecclesiastical kataskopoi. It is
          a hidden form of Arianism – a political…

          In view of the aforesaid, from July,1927 I was forced (forced
          precisely by Metropolitan Sergius and his unrighteousnesses) to
          depart completely from these hierarchs, who do not want to be
          servitors of the Church, as the Apostle Paul commanded

          "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God
          which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God"
          (Colossians1.25),

          but wish only to lord it over God's inheritance, which the Apostle
          Paul so decisively forbade (I Timothy 5.3). I consider that there
          can be no concord between Christ and Beliar, between the faithful
          and the unfaithful

          "To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance
          of life. And who is equal to such a task?". (II Corinthians 2.16).

          And yet it is on this that all the `Niconian' hierarchs,without
          distinction of groupings, establish this sinful agreement and wish
          to set up the Church, and not on the Cross of Christ.

          Besides, they consider that they, that is, the hierarchs, are the
          Church, in spite of the teaching of the Apostle Paul

          "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because
          we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly
          dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". (II
          Corinthians 5.4).

          But I consider that the holy Church is constituted by all the
          believers, all the sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ

          "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ
          Jesus"(Galatians 3.26),

          the whole people of God, the living stones from which the spiritual
          house is being built

          "and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual
          house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
          acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"(I Peter 2.5),

          the Body of Christ on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets,
          Christ Jesus being the head corner-stone; and it is, therefore,
          called a temple".

          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Dear Father Basil,
          >
          > I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is
          difficult
          > to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all
          > that we have known about the MP denying that sergianism had even a
          > definition.
          >
          > In spite of all, Father Alexander (who, for some time, shared
          with
          > the MP the idea that sergianism cannot be defined) advises us that
          > the MP has now confessed sergianism, condemned it and repented.
          >
          > Who would dare make such a dramatic announcement if it were not
          > true? Anyway, it will or will not be published very soon. The
          whole
          > world will know whether this was true or not. Do you understand
          what
          > risk Father Alexander would take for his credibility if it turned
          > out to be false?
          >
          > In God,
          >
          > Vladimir Kozyreff
          >
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, byakimov@c... wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Vladimir
          > >
          > > I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the
          MP
          > double
          > > standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as
          > before.... I
          > > have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working
          > documents of
          > > the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism
          > in the way
          > > you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time
          > soon...maybe I
          > > missed something they officially said this week....
          > >
          > >
          > > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM
          > >
          > > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          > > cc:
          > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Father Alexander, bless.
          > >
          > > You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
          > > firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
          > > and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
          > > convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".
          > >
          > > VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father
          Alexander.
          > > What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
          > > that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
          > > direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
          > > about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
          > > you posted this message.
          > >
          > > Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents
          on
          > > this topic.
          > >
          > > So, you agree after all that there is a definition for
          sergianism,
          > > that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
          > > II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
          > > agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be
          repeated.
          > > At last, things are becoming clear again.
          > >
          > > I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list
          will
          > > rejoice.
          > >
          > > Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by
          > the
          > > MP?
          > >
          > > In God,
          > >
          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
          > >
          > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
          > > <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
          > > > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >Dear Athanasios,
          > > > >
          > > > >The questions are:
          > > > >
          > > > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
          > > > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
          > > claiming
          > > > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
          > > > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a
          strategy
          > > soon
          > > > >when persecutions come again?
          > > > >
          > > > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
          > > orthodox
          > > > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as
          > refusing
          > > > >it because we all sin".
          > > > >
          > > > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
          > > What
          > > > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
          > > > >
          > > > >In God,
          > > > >
          > > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
          > > confusion, with
          > > > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
          > > position is
          > > > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
          > > correct and
          > > > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
          > > again.
          > > >
          > > > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
          > > >
          > > > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the
          > ROCOR
          > > for
          > > > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
          > > key
          > > > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is
          > also
          > > deeply
          > > > wrong.
          > > >
          > > > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate
          > just
          > > > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join
          Commissions,
          > > including
          > > > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
          > > that in the
          > > > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly
          confess
          > > the Truth
          > > > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
          > > >
          > > > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly
          shut
          > > his eyes
          > > > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
          > > continue to
          > > > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he
          believes,
          > > rather
          > > > than what is real.
          > > >
          > > > Sad.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > With love in Christ,
          > > >
          > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
          > > >
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