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Re: Should ROCOR repent?

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  • orthodoxchurch_sg
    ... Dear Vladimir: Who has no need of repentance? God bless / Fr Daniel
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dear List,
      >
      > We live now in a time where those who say:" The traditional ROCOR
      > has been a pure and righteous defender of orthodoxy and has no
      > reason to repent" are viewed ROCOR's enemies.
      >
      > Those who say :" the ROCOR has been wrong; she should repent at
      > least as much as the MP" are considered as her friends.
      >
      > Trying to use our brain, does this not suggest that the ROCOR has
      > somehow recently adopted a new path?
      >
      > In God,
      >
      > Vladimir Kozyreff

      Dear Vladimir:
      Who has no need of repentance?
      God bless / Fr Daniel
    • Athanasios Jayne
      ... orthodoxchurch_sg ... Yes, repentance is always in season. The holy desert Fathers would even go so far as to confess to faults they did not possess,
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
        "orthodoxchurch_sg" >

        >Dear Vladimir:
        > Who has no need of repentance?
        > God bless / Fr Daniel

        Yes, repentance is always in season.

        The holy desert Fathers would even go so far
        as to confess to faults they did not possess,
        in order to encourage their weaker brethren, to
        help them confess their true faults. By their
        humility and their love, these blessed Fathers won
        their brothers, and helped them overcome their sins.

        Truly this is the way of Christ.

        Who among us is without sin?

        When the Prodigal Son was returning to his
        father, his father "saw him, and had
        compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck,
        and kissed him." His father did this even
        before he could say, "Father, I have sinned."
        It was enough for his father that his son had
        returned. When his son confessed, his father
        did not even acknowledge it, but said:
        "Bring forth the best robe and put it on
        him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes
        on his feet: And bring hither the fatted
        calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be
        merry. For this my son was dead, and is
        alive again; he was lost, and is found."

        This is a picture of our Father in heaven,
        and Christ has said that we must be perfect,
        just as our Father in heaven is perfect.

        Love, compassion, and humility are also
        always in season.

        Athanasios.
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Daniel, bless. What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is in need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism is
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
          Dear Father Daniel, bless.

          What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is in
          need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism is that
          you are wrong because you are in need of repentance and that I am
          your friend because I state that you are wrong.

          If I tell you that you should repent for what you just wrote, I
          imply that what you just wrote is wrong. Some will support you
          however, in spite of the fact that everybody is in need of
          repentance, including you.

          I certainly need repentance.

          Saying however that the ROCOR should repent at least as much as the
          MP is implying that she was not more right than the MP and had to
          change direction.

          What I am saying is that those who say that the MP should repent (is
          wrong) are now considered as ROCOR's enemies and those who say that
          the ROCOR should repent (is wrong) are considered to be ROCOR's
          friends.

          In other words, the supporters of ROCOR's traditional path are now
          considered to be her enemies. This implies thus that the ROCOR did
          change her path, whatever the need of repentance in which every
          human is.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff

          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
          <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
          > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear List,
          > >
          > > We live now in a time where those who say:" The traditional
          ROCOR
          > > has been a pure and righteous defender of orthodoxy and has no
          > > reason to repent" are viewed ROCOR's enemies.
          > >
          > > Those who say :" the ROCOR has been wrong; she should repent at
          > > least as much as the MP" are considered as her friends.
          > >
          > > Trying to use our brain, does this not suggest that the ROCOR
          has
          > > somehow recently adopted a new path?
          > >
          > > In God,
          > >
          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
          >
          > Dear Vladimir:
          > Who has no need of repentance?
          > God bless / Fr Daniel
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Athanasios, The questions are: - should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism? - should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 6, 2004
            Dear Athanasios,

            The questions are:

            - should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
            - should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still claiming
            it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
            - shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy soon
            when persecutions come again?

            We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional orthodox
            path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
            it because we all sin".

            Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion. What
            you are doing is simply spreading confusion.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff





            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
            <athanasiosj@j...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
            > "orthodoxchurch_sg" >
            >
            > >Dear Vladimir:
            > > Who has no need of repentance?
            > > God bless / Fr Daniel
            >
            > Yes, repentance is always in season.
            >
            > The holy desert Fathers would even go so far
            > as to confess to faults they did not possess,
            > in order to encourage their weaker brethren, to
            > help them confess their true faults. By their
            > humility and their love, these blessed Fathers won
            > their brothers, and helped them overcome their sins.
            >
            > Truly this is the way of Christ.
            >
            > Who among us is without sin?
            >
            > When the Prodigal Son was returning to his
            > father, his father "saw him, and had
            > compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck,
            > and kissed him." His father did this even
            > before he could say, "Father, I have sinned."
            > It was enough for his father that his son had
            > returned. When his son confessed, his father
            > did not even acknowledge it, but said:
            > "Bring forth the best robe and put it on
            > him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes
            > on his feet: And bring hither the fatted
            > calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be
            > merry. For this my son was dead, and is
            > alive again; he was lost, and is found."
            >
            > This is a picture of our Father in heaven,
            > and Christ has said that we must be perfect,
            > just as our Father in heaven is perfect.
            >
            > Love, compassion, and humility are also
            > always in season.
            >
            > Athanasios.
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading confusion, with his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate s official position is that
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 6, 2004
              At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:


              >Dear Athanasios,
              >
              >The questions are:
              >
              >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
              >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still claiming
              >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
              >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy soon
              >when persecutions come again?
              >
              >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional orthodox
              >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
              >it because we all sin".
              >
              >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion. What
              >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
              >
              >In God,
              >
              >Vladimir Kozyreff
              >
              >


              It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading confusion, with
              his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official position is
              that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was correct and
              that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur again.

              In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

              If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the ROCOR for
              Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a key
              question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is also deeply
              wrong.

              In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate just
              yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions, including
              texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state that in the
              case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess the Truth
              and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.

              Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut his eyes
              that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably continue to
              endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes, rather
              than what is real.

              Sad.


              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Father Alexander, bless. You write: Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 6, 2004
                Dear Father Alexander, bless.

                You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".

                VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
                What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                you posted this message.

                Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
                this topic.

                So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
                that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
                At last, things are becoming clear again.

                I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
                rejoice.

                Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by the
                MP?

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff

                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                >
                >
                > >Dear Athanasios,
                > >
                > >The questions are:
                > >
                > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                claiming
                > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
                soon
                > >when persecutions come again?
                > >
                > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                orthodox
                > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
                > >it because we all sin".
                > >
                > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                What
                > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                > >
                > >In God,
                > >
                > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                confusion, with
                > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                position is
                > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                correct and
                > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                again.
                >
                > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                >
                > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the ROCOR
                for
                > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                key
                > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is also
                deeply
                > wrong.
                >
                > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate just
                > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
                including
                > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                that in the
                > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
                the Truth
                > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                >
                > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
                his eyes
                > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                continue to
                > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
                rather
                > than what is real.
                >
                > Sad.
                >
                >
                > With love in Christ,
                >
                > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • orthodoxchurch_sg
                ... Dear Vladimir: I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my question constitutes sophism. I agree that there is a need for repentance on
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 7, 2004
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                  <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
                  >
                  > What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is in
                  > need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism

                  Dear Vladimir:
                  I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my question
                  constitutes sophism.
                  I agree that there is a need for repentance on the part of some
                  individuals in the MP (the Church itself cannot repent, but the
                  sinners within it should). My problem with your post was that you
                  seemed to be saying members of ROCOR had no need of repentance. As a
                  member of ROCOR 1978-1999, I disagree with you.
                  Now in your later post you are declaring that there are levels of
                  repentance - along the lines of "we dont have to repent as much as
                  you". This is a new one on me: Scriptural, Patristic, Conciliar
                  references please?
                  God bless / Fr Daniel
                • byakimov@csc.com.au
                  Dear Vladimir I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP double standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as before....
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 7, 2004
                    Dear Vladimir

                    I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP double
                    standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as before.... I
                    have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working documents of
                    the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism in the way
                    you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time soon...maybe I
                    missed something they officially said this week....


                    unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra




                    "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM

                    Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    cc:
                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?





                    Dear Father Alexander, bless.

                    You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                    firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                    and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                    convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".

                    VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
                    What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                    that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                    direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                    about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                    you posted this message.

                    Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
                    this topic.

                    So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
                    that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                    II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                    agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
                    At last, things are becoming clear again.

                    I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
                    rejoice.

                    Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by the
                    MP?

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                    <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                    > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > >Dear Athanasios,
                    > >
                    > >The questions are:
                    > >
                    > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                    > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                    claiming
                    > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                    > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
                    soon
                    > >when persecutions come again?
                    > >
                    > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                    orthodox
                    > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
                    > >it because we all sin".
                    > >
                    > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                    What
                    > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                    > >
                    > >In God,
                    > >
                    > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                    confusion, with
                    > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                    position is
                    > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                    correct and
                    > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                    again.
                    >
                    > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                    >
                    > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the ROCOR
                    for
                    > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                    key
                    > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is also
                    deeply
                    > wrong.
                    >
                    > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate just
                    > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
                    including
                    > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                    that in the
                    > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
                    the Truth
                    > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
                    his eyes
                    > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                    continue to
                    > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
                    rather
                    > than what is real.
                    >
                    > Sad.
                    >
                    >
                    > With love in Christ,
                    >
                    > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                    >
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Father Raphael, bless. Heb. 5:11-14 says that we are to discern the good from the evil in a person s or organisation s life and behaviour. 1 Cor. 2:15:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 8, 2004
                      Dear Father Raphael, bless.

                      Heb. 5:11-14 says that we are to discern the good from the evil in a
                      person's or organisation's life and behaviour.

                      1 Cor. 2:15: "he that is spiritual judges all things…"

                      We are to use discernment to appreciate a thing's true value, and to
                      appreciate the gravity of sins. The MP is the embodiment of the
                      treason of Christ's Church. ROCOR has been the witness of Christ, in
                      spite of her sins.

                      Teaching that both organisations are even because they are both in
                      need of repentance is spreading confusion and refusing to judge as
                      we are expected to do. It is betraying Christ again.

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                      <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                      > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
                      > >
                      > > What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is
                      in
                      > > need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism
                      >
                      > Dear Vladimir:
                      > I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my
                      question
                      > constitutes sophism.
                      > I agree that there is a need for repentance on the part of some
                      > individuals in the MP (the Church itself cannot repent, but the
                      > sinners within it should). My problem with your post was that you
                      > seemed to be saying members of ROCOR had no need of repentance. As
                      a
                      > member of ROCOR 1978-1999, I disagree with you.
                      > Now in your later post you are declaring that there are levels of
                      > repentance - along the lines of "we dont have to repent as much as
                      > you". This is a new one on me: Scriptural, Patristic, Conciliar
                      > references please?
                      > God bless / Fr Daniel
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Father Basil, I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is difficult to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all that
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 10, 2004
                        Dear Father Basil,

                        I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is difficult
                        to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all
                        that we have known about the MP denying that sergianism had even a
                        definition.

                        In spite of all, Father Alexander (who, for some time, shared with
                        the MP the idea that sergianism cannot be defined) advises us that
                        the MP has now confessed sergianism, condemned it and repented.

                        Who would dare make such a dramatic announcement if it were not
                        true? Anyway, it will or will not be published very soon. The whole
                        world will know whether this was true or not. Do you understand what
                        risk Father Alexander would take for his credibility if it turned
                        out to be false?

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff


                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, byakimov@c... wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Vladimir
                        >
                        > I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP
                        double
                        > standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as
                        before.... I
                        > have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working
                        documents of
                        > the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism
                        in the way
                        > you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time
                        soon...maybe I
                        > missed something they officially said this week....
                        >
                        >
                        > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM
                        >
                        > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        > cc:
                        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Father Alexander, bless.
                        >
                        > You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                        > firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                        > and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                        > convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".
                        >
                        > VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
                        > What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                        > that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                        > direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                        > about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                        > you posted this message.
                        >
                        > Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
                        > this topic.
                        >
                        > So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
                        > that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                        > II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                        > agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
                        > At last, things are becoming clear again.
                        >
                        > I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
                        > rejoice.
                        >
                        > Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by
                        the
                        > MP?
                        >
                        > In God,
                        >
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                        > <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                        > > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >Dear Athanasios,
                        > > >
                        > > >The questions are:
                        > > >
                        > > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                        > > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                        > claiming
                        > > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                        > > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
                        > soon
                        > > >when persecutions come again?
                        > > >
                        > > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                        > orthodox
                        > > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as
                        refusing
                        > > >it because we all sin".
                        > > >
                        > > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                        > What
                        > > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                        > > >
                        > > >In God,
                        > > >
                        > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                        > confusion, with
                        > > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                        > position is
                        > > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                        > correct and
                        > > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                        > again.
                        > >
                        > > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                        > >
                        > > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the
                        ROCOR
                        > for
                        > > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                        > key
                        > > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is
                        also
                        > deeply
                        > > wrong.
                        > >
                        > > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate
                        just
                        > > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
                        > including
                        > > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                        > that in the
                        > > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
                        > the Truth
                        > > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                        > >
                        > > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
                        > his eyes
                        > > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                        > continue to
                        > > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
                        > rather
                        > > than what is real.
                        > >
                        > > Sad.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > With love in Christ,
                        > >
                        > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                        > >
                      • vkozyreff
                        Dear List, Thank to Father Alexander, we have just been advised about the progress that has been made, at last, in agreeing between ourselves and with the MP
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 11, 2004
                          Dear List,

                          Thank to Father Alexander, we have just been advised about the
                          progress that has been made, at last, in agreeing between ourselves
                          and with the MP that sergianism is a horrible sin that should never
                          be repeated.

                          We have been glad to hear that the MP has already stated that, in
                          case of persecution, the path or the martyrs will have to be
                          followed and not that of Met. Sergius. Glory to God.

                          It seems thus appropriate to secure this thinking among ourselves as
                          a cement of our unity in Christ, and to mark the end of the
                          confusion about sergianism that has reigned for a while in our
                          circles, in the hurry to join the MP.

                          Please see below a report about sergianism by HIEROMARTYR ANDREW,
                          ARCHBISHOP OF UFA. I suggest that we unite in rejecting this
                          fundamentally unorthodox doctrine.

                          I suggest to, pay great attention to the excerpt right below, about
                          the frequent temptation (even in ROCOR) to consider the hierarchy,
                          not the totality of the believers as being the Church:

                          "Besides, they consider (the sergianist) that they, that is, the
                          hierarchs, are the Church, in spite of the teaching of the Apostle
                          Paul:

                          "But I consider that the holy Church is constituted by all the
                          believers, all the sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ

                          "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus"
                          (Galatians 3.26),

                          the whole people of God, the living stones from which the spiritual
                          house is being built

                          "and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual
                          house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
                          acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"(I Peter 2.5),

                          the Body of Christ on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets,
                          Christ Jesus being the head corner-stone; and it is, therefore,
                          called a temple".

                          In God,

                          Vladimir Kozyreff

                          On October 4, 1932 Archbishop Andrew wrote:


                          "After Peter, Metropolitan Sergius took his place, having obtained
                          it in a completely anti-canonical manner. This Metropolitan Sergius'
                          administration can be characterised in the words: hypocrisy and
                          cynical dishonour. Whereas the Lord Himself demands from His
                          followers, first of all, that they should avoid the leaven of the
                          Pharisees

                          "Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that
                          they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to
                          his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the
                          Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"(Luke 12.1)

                          and the leaven of Herod

                          "Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the
                          Pharisees and that of Herod." (Mark8.15),

                          while honourableness is considered the elementary virtue of every
                          citizen and a still more necessary virtue for a bishop

                          "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one
                          wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to
                          teach" (I Timothy 3.2).

                          The same leaven of Herod has forced Metropolitan Sergius and all
                          those communicating with him to violate the 30th Apostolic Canon

                          Canon XXX. (XXXI.) If any bishop obtain possession of a church by
                          the aid of the temporal powers, let him be deposed and
                          excommunicated, and all who communicate with him,

                          the 3rd Canon of the Seventh Ecumenical Council

                          CANON III. That it does not pertain to princes to choose a
                          Bishop. "LET every election of a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, made
                          by princes stand null, according to the canon which says:

                          If any bishop making use of the secular powers shall by their means
                          obtain jurisdiction over any church, he shall be deposed, and also
                          excommunicated, together with all who remain in communion with him.
                          For he who is raised to the episcopate must be chosen by bishops, as
                          was decreed by the holy fathers of Nice in the canon which says:

                          It is most fitting that a bishop be ordained by all the bishops in
                          the province; but if this is difficult to arrange, either on account
                          of urgent necessity, or because of the length of the journey, three
                          bishops at least having met together and given their votes, those
                          also who are absent having signified their assent by letters, the
                          ordination shall take place. The confirmation of what is thus done,
                          shall in each province be given by the metropolitan thereof".

                          and very many others. In general the sins of Sergius and his
                          dishonourable Synod are evident and all in all can be called `the
                          dishonourable heresy of the slanderers of Christianity' (The Seventh
                          Ecumenical Council, canon 7).

                          CANON VII. That to churches consecrated without any deposit of the
                          reliques of the Saints, the defect should be made good.

                          PAUL the divine Apostle says: "The sins of some are open beforehand,
                          and some they follow after."

                          These are their primary sins, and other sins follow these.
                          Accordingly upon the heels of the heresy of the traducers of the
                          Christians, there followed close other ungodliness. For as they took
                          out of the churches the presence of the venerable images, so
                          likewise they cast aside other customs which we must now revive and
                          maintain in accordance with the written and unwritten law.

                          We decree therefore that relics shall be placed with the accustomed
                          service in as many of the sacred temples as have been consecrated
                          without the relics of the Martyrs. And if any bishop from this time
                          forward is found consecrating a temple without holy relics, he shall
                          be deposed, as a transgressor of the ecclesiastical traditions.

                          This heresy is more evil that the heresy of slandering the holy
                          icons (iconoclasm). It is a new union with unbelief, bound up with
                          the establishment of completely ant ecclesiastical kataskopoi. It is
                          a hidden form of Arianism – a political…

                          In view of the aforesaid, from July,1927 I was forced (forced
                          precisely by Metropolitan Sergius and his unrighteousnesses) to
                          depart completely from these hierarchs, who do not want to be
                          servitors of the Church, as the Apostle Paul commanded

                          "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God
                          which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God"
                          (Colossians1.25),

                          but wish only to lord it over God's inheritance, which the Apostle
                          Paul so decisively forbade (I Timothy 5.3). I consider that there
                          can be no concord between Christ and Beliar, between the faithful
                          and the unfaithful

                          "To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance
                          of life. And who is equal to such a task?". (II Corinthians 2.16).

                          And yet it is on this that all the `Niconian' hierarchs,without
                          distinction of groupings, establish this sinful agreement and wish
                          to set up the Church, and not on the Cross of Christ.

                          Besides, they consider that they, that is, the hierarchs, are the
                          Church, in spite of the teaching of the Apostle Paul

                          "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because
                          we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly
                          dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". (II
                          Corinthians 5.4).

                          But I consider that the holy Church is constituted by all the
                          believers, all the sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ

                          "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ
                          Jesus"(Galatians 3.26),

                          the whole people of God, the living stones from which the spiritual
                          house is being built

                          "and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual
                          house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
                          acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"(I Peter 2.5),

                          the Body of Christ on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets,
                          Christ Jesus being the head corner-stone; and it is, therefore,
                          called a temple".

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Father Basil,
                          >
                          > I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is
                          difficult
                          > to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all
                          > that we have known about the MP denying that sergianism had even a
                          > definition.
                          >
                          > In spite of all, Father Alexander (who, for some time, shared
                          with
                          > the MP the idea that sergianism cannot be defined) advises us that
                          > the MP has now confessed sergianism, condemned it and repented.
                          >
                          > Who would dare make such a dramatic announcement if it were not
                          > true? Anyway, it will or will not be published very soon. The
                          whole
                          > world will know whether this was true or not. Do you understand
                          what
                          > risk Father Alexander would take for his credibility if it turned
                          > out to be false?
                          >
                          > In God,
                          >
                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, byakimov@c... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Vladimir
                          > >
                          > > I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the
                          MP
                          > double
                          > > standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as
                          > before.... I
                          > > have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working
                          > documents of
                          > > the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism
                          > in the way
                          > > you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time
                          > soon...maybe I
                          > > missed something they officially said this week....
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM
                          > >
                          > > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > > cc:
                          > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dear Father Alexander, bless.
                          > >
                          > > You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                          > > firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                          > > and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                          > > convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".
                          > >
                          > > VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father
                          Alexander.
                          > > What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                          > > that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                          > > direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                          > > about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                          > > you posted this message.
                          > >
                          > > Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents
                          on
                          > > this topic.
                          > >
                          > > So, you agree after all that there is a definition for
                          sergianism,
                          > > that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                          > > II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                          > > agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be
                          repeated.
                          > > At last, things are becoming clear again.
                          > >
                          > > I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list
                          will
                          > > rejoice.
                          > >
                          > > Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by
                          > the
                          > > MP?
                          > >
                          > > In God,
                          > >
                          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          > >
                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                          > > <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                          > > > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >Dear Athanasios,
                          > > > >
                          > > > >The questions are:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                          > > > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                          > > claiming
                          > > > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                          > > > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a
                          strategy
                          > > soon
                          > > > >when persecutions come again?
                          > > > >
                          > > > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                          > > orthodox
                          > > > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as
                          > refusing
                          > > > >it because we all sin".
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                          > > What
                          > > > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >In God,
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                          > > confusion, with
                          > > > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                          > > position is
                          > > > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                          > > correct and
                          > > > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                          > > again.
                          > > >
                          > > > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                          > > >
                          > > > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the
                          > ROCOR
                          > > for
                          > > > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                          > > key
                          > > > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is
                          > also
                          > > deeply
                          > > > wrong.
                          > > >
                          > > > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate
                          > just
                          > > > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join
                          Commissions,
                          > > including
                          > > > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                          > > that in the
                          > > > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly
                          confess
                          > > the Truth
                          > > > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                          > > >
                          > > > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly
                          shut
                          > > his eyes
                          > > > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                          > > continue to
                          > > > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he
                          believes,
                          > > rather
                          > > > than what is real.
                          > > >
                          > > > Sad.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > With love in Christ,
                          > > >
                          > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          > > >
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