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Should ROCOR repent?

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear List, We live now in a time where those who say: The traditional ROCOR has been a pure and righteous defender of orthodoxy and has no reason to repent
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
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      Dear List,

      We live now in a time where those who say:" The traditional ROCOR
      has been a pure and righteous defender of orthodoxy and has no
      reason to repent" are viewed ROCOR's enemies.

      Those who say :" the ROCOR has been wrong; she should repent at
      least as much as the MP" are considered as her friends.

      Trying to use our brain, does this not suggest that the ROCOR has
      somehow recently adopted a new path?

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff
    • orthodoxchurch_sg
      ... Dear Vladimir: Who has no need of repentance? God bless / Fr Daniel
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Dear List,
        >
        > We live now in a time where those who say:" The traditional ROCOR
        > has been a pure and righteous defender of orthodoxy and has no
        > reason to repent" are viewed ROCOR's enemies.
        >
        > Those who say :" the ROCOR has been wrong; she should repent at
        > least as much as the MP" are considered as her friends.
        >
        > Trying to use our brain, does this not suggest that the ROCOR has
        > somehow recently adopted a new path?
        >
        > In God,
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff

        Dear Vladimir:
        Who has no need of repentance?
        God bless / Fr Daniel
      • Athanasios Jayne
        ... orthodoxchurch_sg ... Yes, repentance is always in season. The holy desert Fathers would even go so far as to confess to faults they did not possess,
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
          "orthodoxchurch_sg" >

          >Dear Vladimir:
          > Who has no need of repentance?
          > God bless / Fr Daniel

          Yes, repentance is always in season.

          The holy desert Fathers would even go so far
          as to confess to faults they did not possess,
          in order to encourage their weaker brethren, to
          help them confess their true faults. By their
          humility and their love, these blessed Fathers won
          their brothers, and helped them overcome their sins.

          Truly this is the way of Christ.

          Who among us is without sin?

          When the Prodigal Son was returning to his
          father, his father "saw him, and had
          compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck,
          and kissed him." His father did this even
          before he could say, "Father, I have sinned."
          It was enough for his father that his son had
          returned. When his son confessed, his father
          did not even acknowledge it, but said:
          "Bring forth the best robe and put it on
          him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes
          on his feet: And bring hither the fatted
          calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be
          merry. For this my son was dead, and is
          alive again; he was lost, and is found."

          This is a picture of our Father in heaven,
          and Christ has said that we must be perfect,
          just as our Father in heaven is perfect.

          Love, compassion, and humility are also
          always in season.

          Athanasios.
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Father Daniel, bless. What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is in need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism is
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 5, 2004
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            Dear Father Daniel, bless.

            What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is in
            need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism is that
            you are wrong because you are in need of repentance and that I am
            your friend because I state that you are wrong.

            If I tell you that you should repent for what you just wrote, I
            imply that what you just wrote is wrong. Some will support you
            however, in spite of the fact that everybody is in need of
            repentance, including you.

            I certainly need repentance.

            Saying however that the ROCOR should repent at least as much as the
            MP is implying that she was not more right than the MP and had to
            change direction.

            What I am saying is that those who say that the MP should repent (is
            wrong) are now considered as ROCOR's enemies and those who say that
            the ROCOR should repent (is wrong) are considered to be ROCOR's
            friends.

            In other words, the supporters of ROCOR's traditional path are now
            considered to be her enemies. This implies thus that the ROCOR did
            change her path, whatever the need of repentance in which every
            human is.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
            <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
            > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Dear List,
            > >
            > > We live now in a time where those who say:" The traditional
            ROCOR
            > > has been a pure and righteous defender of orthodoxy and has no
            > > reason to repent" are viewed ROCOR's enemies.
            > >
            > > Those who say :" the ROCOR has been wrong; she should repent at
            > > least as much as the MP" are considered as her friends.
            > >
            > > Trying to use our brain, does this not suggest that the ROCOR
            has
            > > somehow recently adopted a new path?
            > >
            > > In God,
            > >
            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            > Dear Vladimir:
            > Who has no need of repentance?
            > God bless / Fr Daniel
          • vkozyreff
            Dear Athanasios, The questions are: - should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism? - should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 6, 2004
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              Dear Athanasios,

              The questions are:

              - should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
              - should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still claiming
              it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
              - shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy soon
              when persecutions come again?

              We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional orthodox
              path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
              it because we all sin".

              Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion. What
              you are doing is simply spreading confusion.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff





              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
              <athanasiosj@j...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
              > "orthodoxchurch_sg" >
              >
              > >Dear Vladimir:
              > > Who has no need of repentance?
              > > God bless / Fr Daniel
              >
              > Yes, repentance is always in season.
              >
              > The holy desert Fathers would even go so far
              > as to confess to faults they did not possess,
              > in order to encourage their weaker brethren, to
              > help them confess their true faults. By their
              > humility and their love, these blessed Fathers won
              > their brothers, and helped them overcome their sins.
              >
              > Truly this is the way of Christ.
              >
              > Who among us is without sin?
              >
              > When the Prodigal Son was returning to his
              > father, his father "saw him, and had
              > compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck,
              > and kissed him." His father did this even
              > before he could say, "Father, I have sinned."
              > It was enough for his father that his son had
              > returned. When his son confessed, his father
              > did not even acknowledge it, but said:
              > "Bring forth the best robe and put it on
              > him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes
              > on his feet: And bring hither the fatted
              > calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be
              > merry. For this my son was dead, and is
              > alive again; he was lost, and is found."
              >
              > This is a picture of our Father in heaven,
              > and Christ has said that we must be perfect,
              > just as our Father in heaven is perfect.
              >
              > Love, compassion, and humility are also
              > always in season.
              >
              > Athanasios.
            • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
              ... It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading confusion, with his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate s official position is that
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 6, 2004
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                At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:


                >Dear Athanasios,
                >
                >The questions are:
                >
                >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still claiming
                >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy soon
                >when persecutions come again?
                >
                >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional orthodox
                >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
                >it because we all sin".
                >
                >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion. What
                >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                >
                >In God,
                >
                >Vladimir Kozyreff
                >
                >


                It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading confusion, with
                his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official position is
                that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was correct and
                that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur again.

                In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

                If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the ROCOR for
                Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a key
                question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is also deeply
                wrong.

                In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate just
                yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions, including
                texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state that in the
                case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess the Truth
                and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.

                Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut his eyes
                that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably continue to
                endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes, rather
                than what is real.

                Sad.


                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • vkozyreff
                Dear Father Alexander, bless. You write: Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 6, 2004
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                  Dear Father Alexander, bless.

                  You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                  firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                  and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                  convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".

                  VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
                  What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                  that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                  direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                  about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                  you posted this message.

                  Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
                  this topic.

                  So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
                  that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                  II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                  agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
                  At last, things are becoming clear again.

                  I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
                  rejoice.

                  Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by the
                  MP?

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                  <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                  > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > >Dear Athanasios,
                  > >
                  > >The questions are:
                  > >
                  > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                  > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                  claiming
                  > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                  > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
                  soon
                  > >when persecutions come again?
                  > >
                  > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                  orthodox
                  > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
                  > >it because we all sin".
                  > >
                  > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                  What
                  > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                  > >
                  > >In God,
                  > >
                  > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                  confusion, with
                  > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                  position is
                  > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                  correct and
                  > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                  again.
                  >
                  > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                  >
                  > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the ROCOR
                  for
                  > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                  key
                  > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is also
                  deeply
                  > wrong.
                  >
                  > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate just
                  > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
                  including
                  > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                  that in the
                  > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
                  the Truth
                  > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
                  his eyes
                  > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                  continue to
                  > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
                  rather
                  > than what is real.
                  >
                  > Sad.
                  >
                  >
                  > With love in Christ,
                  >
                  > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • orthodoxchurch_sg
                  ... Dear Vladimir: I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my question constitutes sophism. I agree that there is a need for repentance on
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 7, 2004
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                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                    <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
                    >
                    > What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is in
                    > need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism

                    Dear Vladimir:
                    I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my question
                    constitutes sophism.
                    I agree that there is a need for repentance on the part of some
                    individuals in the MP (the Church itself cannot repent, but the
                    sinners within it should). My problem with your post was that you
                    seemed to be saying members of ROCOR had no need of repentance. As a
                    member of ROCOR 1978-1999, I disagree with you.
                    Now in your later post you are declaring that there are levels of
                    repentance - along the lines of "we dont have to repent as much as
                    you". This is a new one on me: Scriptural, Patristic, Conciliar
                    references please?
                    God bless / Fr Daniel
                  • byakimov@csc.com.au
                    Dear Vladimir I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP double standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as before....
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 7, 2004
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                      Dear Vladimir

                      I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP double
                      standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as before.... I
                      have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working documents of
                      the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism in the way
                      you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time soon...maybe I
                      missed something they officially said this week....


                      unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra




                      "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM

                      Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      cc:
                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?





                      Dear Father Alexander, bless.

                      You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                      firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                      and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                      convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".

                      VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
                      What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                      that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                      direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                      about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                      you posted this message.

                      Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
                      this topic.

                      So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
                      that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                      II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                      agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
                      At last, things are becoming clear again.

                      I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
                      rejoice.

                      Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by the
                      MP?

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                      <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                      > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > >Dear Athanasios,
                      > >
                      > >The questions are:
                      > >
                      > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                      > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                      claiming
                      > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                      > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
                      soon
                      > >when persecutions come again?
                      > >
                      > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                      orthodox
                      > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as refusing
                      > >it because we all sin".
                      > >
                      > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                      What
                      > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                      > >
                      > >In God,
                      > >
                      > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                      confusion, with
                      > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                      position is
                      > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                      correct and
                      > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                      again.
                      >
                      > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                      >
                      > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the ROCOR
                      for
                      > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                      key
                      > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is also
                      deeply
                      > wrong.
                      >
                      > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate just
                      > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
                      including
                      > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                      that in the
                      > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
                      the Truth
                      > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
                      his eyes
                      > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                      continue to
                      > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
                      rather
                      > than what is real.
                      >
                      > Sad.
                      >
                      >
                      > With love in Christ,
                      >
                      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                      >
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Father Raphael, bless. Heb. 5:11-14 says that we are to discern the good from the evil in a person s or organisation s life and behaviour. 1 Cor. 2:15:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 8, 2004
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                        Dear Father Raphael, bless.

                        Heb. 5:11-14 says that we are to discern the good from the evil in a
                        person's or organisation's life and behaviour.

                        1 Cor. 2:15: "he that is spiritual judges all things…"

                        We are to use discernment to appreciate a thing's true value, and to
                        appreciate the gravity of sins. The MP is the embodiment of the
                        treason of Christ's Church. ROCOR has been the witness of Christ, in
                        spite of her sins.

                        Teaching that both organisations are even because they are both in
                        need of repentance is spreading confusion and refusing to judge as
                        we are expected to do. It is betraying Christ again.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff


                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                        <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                        > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
                        > >
                        > > What you are saying is that nobody is right because everybody is
                        in
                        > > need of repentance. The logical conclusion of your sophism
                        >
                        > Dear Vladimir:
                        > I am not saying anything of the kind. Neither do I accept my
                        question
                        > constitutes sophism.
                        > I agree that there is a need for repentance on the part of some
                        > individuals in the MP (the Church itself cannot repent, but the
                        > sinners within it should). My problem with your post was that you
                        > seemed to be saying members of ROCOR had no need of repentance. As
                        a
                        > member of ROCOR 1978-1999, I disagree with you.
                        > Now in your later post you are declaring that there are levels of
                        > repentance - along the lines of "we dont have to repent as much as
                        > you". This is a new one on me: Scriptural, Patristic, Conciliar
                        > references please?
                        > God bless / Fr Daniel
                      • vkozyreff
                        Dear Father Basil, I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is difficult to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all that
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 10, 2004
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                          Dear Father Basil,

                          I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is difficult
                          to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all
                          that we have known about the MP denying that sergianism had even a
                          definition.

                          In spite of all, Father Alexander (who, for some time, shared with
                          the MP the idea that sergianism cannot be defined) advises us that
                          the MP has now confessed sergianism, condemned it and repented.

                          Who would dare make such a dramatic announcement if it were not
                          true? Anyway, it will or will not be published very soon. The whole
                          world will know whether this was true or not. Do you understand what
                          risk Father Alexander would take for his credibility if it turned
                          out to be false?

                          In God,

                          Vladimir Kozyreff


                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, byakimov@c... wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Vladimir
                          >
                          > I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the MP
                          double
                          > standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as
                          before.... I
                          > have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working
                          documents of
                          > the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism
                          in the way
                          > you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time
                          soon...maybe I
                          > missed something they officially said this week....
                          >
                          >
                          > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM
                          >
                          > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > cc:
                          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Father Alexander, bless.
                          >
                          > You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                          > firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                          > and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                          > convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".
                          >
                          > VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father Alexander.
                          > What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                          > that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                          > direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                          > about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                          > you posted this message.
                          >
                          > Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents on
                          > this topic.
                          >
                          > So, you agree after all that there is a definition for sergianism,
                          > that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                          > II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                          > agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be repeated.
                          > At last, things are becoming clear again.
                          >
                          > I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list will
                          > rejoice.
                          >
                          > Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by
                          the
                          > MP?
                          >
                          > In God,
                          >
                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                          > <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                          > > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >Dear Athanasios,
                          > > >
                          > > >The questions are:
                          > > >
                          > > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                          > > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                          > claiming
                          > > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                          > > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a strategy
                          > soon
                          > > >when persecutions come again?
                          > > >
                          > > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                          > orthodox
                          > > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as
                          refusing
                          > > >it because we all sin".
                          > > >
                          > > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                          > What
                          > > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                          > > >
                          > > >In God,
                          > > >
                          > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                          > confusion, with
                          > > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                          > position is
                          > > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                          > correct and
                          > > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                          > again.
                          > >
                          > > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                          > >
                          > > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the
                          ROCOR
                          > for
                          > > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                          > key
                          > > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is
                          also
                          > deeply
                          > > wrong.
                          > >
                          > > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate
                          just
                          > > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join Commissions,
                          > including
                          > > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                          > that in the
                          > > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly confess
                          > the Truth
                          > > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                          > >
                          > > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly shut
                          > his eyes
                          > > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                          > continue to
                          > > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he believes,
                          > rather
                          > > than what is real.
                          > >
                          > > Sad.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > With love in Christ,
                          > >
                          > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          > >
                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear List, Thank to Father Alexander, we have just been advised about the progress that has been made, at last, in agreeing between ourselves and with the MP
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 11, 2004
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                            Dear List,

                            Thank to Father Alexander, we have just been advised about the
                            progress that has been made, at last, in agreeing between ourselves
                            and with the MP that sergianism is a horrible sin that should never
                            be repeated.

                            We have been glad to hear that the MP has already stated that, in
                            case of persecution, the path or the martyrs will have to be
                            followed and not that of Met. Sergius. Glory to God.

                            It seems thus appropriate to secure this thinking among ourselves as
                            a cement of our unity in Christ, and to mark the end of the
                            confusion about sergianism that has reigned for a while in our
                            circles, in the hurry to join the MP.

                            Please see below a report about sergianism by HIEROMARTYR ANDREW,
                            ARCHBISHOP OF UFA. I suggest that we unite in rejecting this
                            fundamentally unorthodox doctrine.

                            I suggest to, pay great attention to the excerpt right below, about
                            the frequent temptation (even in ROCOR) to consider the hierarchy,
                            not the totality of the believers as being the Church:

                            "Besides, they consider (the sergianist) that they, that is, the
                            hierarchs, are the Church, in spite of the teaching of the Apostle
                            Paul:

                            "But I consider that the holy Church is constituted by all the
                            believers, all the sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ

                            "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus"
                            (Galatians 3.26),

                            the whole people of God, the living stones from which the spiritual
                            house is being built

                            "and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual
                            house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
                            acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"(I Peter 2.5),

                            the Body of Christ on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets,
                            Christ Jesus being the head corner-stone; and it is, therefore,
                            called a temple".

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff

                            On October 4, 1932 Archbishop Andrew wrote:


                            "After Peter, Metropolitan Sergius took his place, having obtained
                            it in a completely anti-canonical manner. This Metropolitan Sergius'
                            administration can be characterised in the words: hypocrisy and
                            cynical dishonour. Whereas the Lord Himself demands from His
                            followers, first of all, that they should avoid the leaven of the
                            Pharisees

                            "Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that
                            they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to
                            his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the
                            Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"(Luke 12.1)

                            and the leaven of Herod

                            "Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the
                            Pharisees and that of Herod." (Mark8.15),

                            while honourableness is considered the elementary virtue of every
                            citizen and a still more necessary virtue for a bishop

                            "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one
                            wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to
                            teach" (I Timothy 3.2).

                            The same leaven of Herod has forced Metropolitan Sergius and all
                            those communicating with him to violate the 30th Apostolic Canon

                            Canon XXX. (XXXI.) If any bishop obtain possession of a church by
                            the aid of the temporal powers, let him be deposed and
                            excommunicated, and all who communicate with him,

                            the 3rd Canon of the Seventh Ecumenical Council

                            CANON III. That it does not pertain to princes to choose a
                            Bishop. "LET every election of a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, made
                            by princes stand null, according to the canon which says:

                            If any bishop making use of the secular powers shall by their means
                            obtain jurisdiction over any church, he shall be deposed, and also
                            excommunicated, together with all who remain in communion with him.
                            For he who is raised to the episcopate must be chosen by bishops, as
                            was decreed by the holy fathers of Nice in the canon which says:

                            It is most fitting that a bishop be ordained by all the bishops in
                            the province; but if this is difficult to arrange, either on account
                            of urgent necessity, or because of the length of the journey, three
                            bishops at least having met together and given their votes, those
                            also who are absent having signified their assent by letters, the
                            ordination shall take place. The confirmation of what is thus done,
                            shall in each province be given by the metropolitan thereof".

                            and very many others. In general the sins of Sergius and his
                            dishonourable Synod are evident and all in all can be called `the
                            dishonourable heresy of the slanderers of Christianity' (The Seventh
                            Ecumenical Council, canon 7).

                            CANON VII. That to churches consecrated without any deposit of the
                            reliques of the Saints, the defect should be made good.

                            PAUL the divine Apostle says: "The sins of some are open beforehand,
                            and some they follow after."

                            These are their primary sins, and other sins follow these.
                            Accordingly upon the heels of the heresy of the traducers of the
                            Christians, there followed close other ungodliness. For as they took
                            out of the churches the presence of the venerable images, so
                            likewise they cast aside other customs which we must now revive and
                            maintain in accordance with the written and unwritten law.

                            We decree therefore that relics shall be placed with the accustomed
                            service in as many of the sacred temples as have been consecrated
                            without the relics of the Martyrs. And if any bishop from this time
                            forward is found consecrating a temple without holy relics, he shall
                            be deposed, as a transgressor of the ecclesiastical traditions.

                            This heresy is more evil that the heresy of slandering the holy
                            icons (iconoclasm). It is a new union with unbelief, bound up with
                            the establishment of completely ant ecclesiastical kataskopoi. It is
                            a hidden form of Arianism – a political…

                            In view of the aforesaid, from July,1927 I was forced (forced
                            precisely by Metropolitan Sergius and his unrighteousnesses) to
                            depart completely from these hierarchs, who do not want to be
                            servitors of the Church, as the Apostle Paul commanded

                            "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God
                            which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God"
                            (Colossians1.25),

                            but wish only to lord it over God's inheritance, which the Apostle
                            Paul so decisively forbade (I Timothy 5.3). I consider that there
                            can be no concord between Christ and Beliar, between the faithful
                            and the unfaithful

                            "To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance
                            of life. And who is equal to such a task?". (II Corinthians 2.16).

                            And yet it is on this that all the `Niconian' hierarchs,without
                            distinction of groupings, establish this sinful agreement and wish
                            to set up the Church, and not on the Cross of Christ.

                            Besides, they consider that they, that is, the hierarchs, are the
                            Church, in spite of the teaching of the Apostle Paul

                            "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because
                            we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly
                            dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". (II
                            Corinthians 5.4).

                            But I consider that the holy Church is constituted by all the
                            believers, all the sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ

                            "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ
                            Jesus"(Galatians 3.26),

                            the whole people of God, the living stones from which the spiritual
                            house is being built

                            "and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual
                            house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
                            acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"(I Peter 2.5),

                            the Body of Christ on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets,
                            Christ Jesus being the head corner-stone; and it is, therefore,
                            called a temple".

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                            <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Father Basil,
                            >
                            > I tend to have no trust whatsoever in the MP. The news is
                            difficult
                            > to believe. It is contrary to all expectation. It contradicts all
                            > that we have known about the MP denying that sergianism had even a
                            > definition.
                            >
                            > In spite of all, Father Alexander (who, for some time, shared
                            with
                            > the MP the idea that sergianism cannot be defined) advises us that
                            > the MP has now confessed sergianism, condemned it and repented.
                            >
                            > Who would dare make such a dramatic announcement if it were not
                            > true? Anyway, it will or will not be published very soon. The
                            whole
                            > world will know whether this was true or not. Do you understand
                            what
                            > risk Father Alexander would take for his credibility if it turned
                            > out to be false?
                            >
                            > In God,
                            >
                            > Vladimir Kozyreff
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, byakimov@c... wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear Vladimir
                            > >
                            > > I wish I was optimising about the MP as you seem to be but the
                            MP
                            > double
                            > > standards are still at play -- say one thing but continue as
                            > before.... I
                            > > have not seen any sign, notwithstanding the so called working
                            > documents of
                            > > the committees, that the post soviet MP has condemned sergianism
                            > in the way
                            > > you suggest nor is it intending to leave the WCC any time
                            > soon...maybe I
                            > > missed something they officially said this week....
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> on 06/10/2004 11:30:27 PM
                            > >
                            > > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            > > cc:
                            > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Should ROCOR repent?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dear Father Alexander, bless.
                            > >
                            > > You write: "Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so
                            > > firmly shut his eyes that he will never be able to see the truth,
                            > > and will probably continue to endlessly repeat that which he has
                            > > convinced himself he believes, rather than what is real. Sad".
                            > >
                            > > VK: Nothing could be farther from the truth, dear Father
                            Alexander.
                            > > What you are announcing is very good news indeed, and gives hope
                            > > that we will soon be reunited again in ROCOR. Remember, I have no
                            > > direct way of getting this information (see your recent message
                            > > about the confidentiality of the talks), so I did not know before
                            > > you posted this message.
                            > >
                            > > Please share with us as soon as possible all official documents
                            on
                            > > this topic.
                            > >
                            > > So, you agree after all that there is a definition for
                            sergianism,
                            > > that it should be firmly and unequivocally condemned, that Alexii
                            > > II's theory about the "necessary sin" is wrong, and that the MP
                            > > agreed that sergianism was not at all a "bold step" to be
                            repeated.
                            > > At last, things are becoming clear again.
                            > >
                            > > I thank God with all my heart. I am sure that all on this list
                            will
                            > > rejoice.
                            > >
                            > > Can we hope that ecumenism too is going to be repudiated soon by
                            > the
                            > > MP?
                            > >
                            > > In God,
                            > >
                            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                            > >
                            > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                            > > <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                            > > > At 01:12 AM 10/6/2004, Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >Dear Athanasios,
                            > > > >
                            > > > >The questions are:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >- should ROCOR repent for refusing sergianism and ecumenism?
                            > > > >- should the MP repent for following Met Sergius and still
                            > > claiming
                            > > > >it was a bold step that will have to be taken again?
                            > > > >- shall we adopt sergianism as a teaching now and as a
                            strategy
                            > > soon
                            > > > >when persecutions come again?
                            > > > >
                            > > > >We must use our discernment and follow the true traditional
                            > > orthodox
                            > > > >path. We cannot say: "practicing sergianism is as good as
                            > refusing
                            > > > >it because we all sin".
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Saying "we all sin" is true, but irrelevant in the discussion.
                            > > What
                            > > > >you are doing is simply spreading confusion.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >In God,
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > It seems to me that Vladimir is the one who is spreading
                            > > confusion, with
                            > > > his repeated assertions that the Moscow Patriarchate's official
                            > > position is
                            > > > that the path of compromise taken by Metropolitan Sergius was
                            > > correct and
                            > > > that it is the one to be followed if persecutions should occur
                            > > again.
                            > > >
                            > > > In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.
                            > > >
                            > > > If Vladimir thinks that the members of the Commission of the
                            > ROCOR
                            > > for
                            > > > Dialog with the Moscow Patriarchate would not make this issue a
                            > > key
                            > > > question that needed to be answered unequivocally, then he is
                            > also
                            > > deeply
                            > > > wrong.
                            > > >
                            > > > In reality, the Hierarchical Sobor of the Moscow Patriarchate
                            > just
                            > > > yesterday approved the agreed upon texts of the Join
                            Commissions,
                            > > including
                            > > > texts that specifically annul the Declaration of 1927 and state
                            > > that in the
                            > > > case of recurrence of persecution the Church must firmly
                            confess
                            > > the Truth
                            > > > and take the path of Martyrs and Confessors for Christ.
                            > > >
                            > > > Unfortunately, it is my opinion that Vladimir has so firmly
                            shut
                            > > his eyes
                            > > > that he will never be able to see the truth, and will probably
                            > > continue to
                            > > > endlessly repeat that which he has convinced himself he
                            believes,
                            > > rather
                            > > > than what is real.
                            > > >
                            > > > Sad.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > With love in Christ,
                            > > >
                            > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            > > >
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