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Consistency. Members and friends.

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  • Dimitra Dwelley
    Fr. Stafan s comparison is completely IN place.  You are saying it is sinful and sergianist to use lies to save the church.  The Church, we know, is
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 29, 2004
      Fr. Stafan's comparison is completely IN place.  You are saying it is sinful and "sergianist" to use lies to "save the church."  The Church, we know, is composed of people.  So you are saying it is wrong to have used lies to save any Orthodox Christian people under the Soviet yoke.  You are saying that they should have rather chosen martyrdom, and that their hierarchs should have chosen martyrdom FOR them and not tried to save anyone's life.  

      OK.  So  Fr. Stefan is just calling on you to be consistent.  If it was wrong to lie to save lives in the Soviet Union, then it was also wrong of Metr. Vitaly and others to make false documents (lies) to save anyone's life by getting them out of the Soviet Union.  They should all have stayed there and been martyred.  And furthermore, Metr. Vitaly and all those who were able to flee here because of false documents should repent, according to you, because "lies cannot save the Church," which is composed of people.

      What's so hard about that, eh?

      Here in America, Vladimir, judges are taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, legalizing murder (abortion), legalizing homosexual unions and calling them "marrianges,"  forbidding the Bible to be displayed in public places.  If we still call this our homeland and pledge loyalty to this government, Vladimir, (which we do when we pronounce that Pledge of Allegiance) are we sergianists cooperating with a godless government?  Should we be excommunicated?   If our priests also pledge loyalty to our government, and if the CIA has files on them because of their land of birth or Russian extraction, then are they "agents in riassas"?  Should they flee the country, as ROCOR did in the 20's?  If they don't flee, then they are sergianist?  

      Before, why I would have asked clergy about all these questions, but now we don't need to, we can ask lay people instead, since the clergy must agree with the lay people.

      ROCOR's founding documents state that decisions on these kinds of things belong only to the Council of Bishops and an All-Russian Sobor.  But  let's just skip the All-Russian Sobor, even if it will have lay people in it.  Who needs hierarchs, anyway, when lay people can simply pronounce their judgements right now?   And not only that, but they can pronounce judgements about ROCOR without even belonging to it!  

      Why does this list pretend to be for "members and friends of ROCOR," when people who believe ROCOR and her hierarchs are in heresy are allowed to be on the list?  I'd really like to know.

       

      --Dimitra
    • michael nikitin
      I don t know were Fr. Stefan got his wrong information about Metr. Vitaly telling people to lie and take an oath. Germans brought Russian people to Germany to
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 30, 2004
        I don't know were Fr. Stefan got his wrong information about Metr. Vitaly telling people to lie and take an oath.

        Germans brought Russian people to Germany to work for them, during World War II. Russians did not want to go back to Soviet Union after the war when Germany was disected into four zones: English, French, American and Russian. Stalin made a statement that all who wound up in Germany during the war were traitors. Russians knew that all of them would be executed when returned to Soviet Union. After Yalta Conference all Russians abroad were forced to repatriate to Soviet Union against their free will. People began to take passports and stated their nationality was anything but Russian. Later, displaced person's (DP) camps were formed and Metr. Vitaly when finding were the Russians lived would go there and invite them to live in the camp that was formed - Fishbeck, which was the camp were he was a hieromonk and it was the English Zone. People who came to such camps already had documents which stated their nationality, which was anything but Russian. To come to America or any other
        country which opened their immigration to the displaced persons in Germany, people had to take an oath on a bible that everything they stated was true. By that time EVEN IF Bishop Vitaly would tell people to change to correct nationality, no one would listen for fear of USSR was too great.

        Yes, bishop Vitaly did save many people from forced repatriation to Soviet Union, but by that time forced repatriation was behind, thanks to Eleanor Roosevelt, she was the force behind overturning it and repatriation became only for those who were willing. But Communists found ways and that's were Metr. Vitaly came in, since he spoke in five languages fluently and English was one of them. That's why Metr. Vitaly would never be for union with Soviet MP. He remembers the KGB agents in riassas too well.

        Fr. Stefan's people came from Serbia. Metr. Vitaly was not involved with them.

        US is a great country. Churches are free to worship. Religion is not persecuted. Thank God, Dimitra, that you live here and didn't have to go through those difficult times.

        Michael N


        Dimitra Dwelley <dimitradd@...> wrote:Fr. Stafan's comparison is completely IN place. You are saying it is sinful and "sergianist" to use lies to "save the church." The Church, we know, is composed of people. So you are saying it is wrong to have used lies to save any Orthodox Christian people under the Soviet yoke. You are saying that they should have rather chosen martyrdom, and that their hierarchs should have chosen martyrdom FOR them and not tried to save anyone's life.

        OK. So Fr. Stefan is just calling on you to be consistent. If it was wrong to lie to save lives in the Soviet Union, then it was also wrong of Metr. Vitaly and others to make false documents (lies) to save anyone's life by getting them out of the Soviet Union. They should all have stayed there and been martyred. And furthermore, Metr. Vitaly and all those who were able to flee here because of false documents should repent, according to you, because "lies cannot save the Church," which is composed of people.

        What's so hard about that, eh?

        Here in America, Vladimir, judges are taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, legalizing murder (abortion), legalizing homosexual unions and calling them "marrianges," forbidding the Bible to be displayed in public places. If we still call this our homeland and pledge loyalty to this government, Vladimir, (which we do when we pronounce that Pledge of Allegiance) are we sergianists cooperating with a godless government? Should we be excommunicated? If our priests also pledge loyalty to our government, and if the CIA has files on them because of their land of birth or Russian extraction, then are they "agents in riassas"? Should they flee the country, as ROCOR did in the 20's? If they don't flee, then they are sergianist?

        Before, why I would have asked clergy about all these questions, but now we don't need to, we can ask lay people instead, since the clergy must agree with the lay people.

        ROCOR's founding documents state that decisions on these kinds of things belong only to the Council of Bishops and an All-Russian Sobor. But let's just skip the All-Russian Sobor, even if it will have lay people in it. Who needs hierarchs, anyway, when lay people can simply pronounce their judgements right now? And not only that, but they can pronounce judgements about ROCOR without even belonging to it!

        Why does this list pretend to be for "members and friends of ROCOR," when people who believe ROCOR and her hierarchs are in heresy are allowed to be on the list? I'd really like to know.



        --Dimitra



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      • Dimitra Dwelley
        Dear Michael Nikitin, I am not condemning people who had to go through those difficult times. As to the US, take a look at the Hate Crimes bill and then
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 1, 2004
          Dear Michael Nikitin,

          I am not condemning people who had to go through those difficult times. As to the US, take a look at the "Hate Crimes" bill and then apply that to pastors preaching against homosexuality from the pulpit. They will be considered guilty of a "hate crime" and jailed.
          Thank God that your difficult times are behind you; mine are ahead of me.

          Ickrenno lyubyaschaya Vas,
          Dimitra



          > US is a great country.  Churches are free to worship.  Religion is
          > not persecuted.  Thank God, Dimitra, that you live here and didn't
          > have to go through those difficult times.
          >
          > Michael N
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