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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: "Fr. Nikita Orloff - Now a Bishop?"

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  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    ... I am quite amazed by this reply. When I asked the question: If the rumor is true, I wonder what his wife (of some forty years), Pavla, thinks about this.
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 4, 2004
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      At 12:13 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
      >Dear Father Stefan, bless.
      >
      >With regards to Father Nikita's chirotonia, we have read Father
      >Alexander's innuendo about N. Orloff's wife thoughts after 40 years
      >of marriage, and N. Zaharov insults (quickly followed by apologies
      >for publishing them, not for authoring them).
      >
      >Would you not think that it would be time to put some Christian
      >order in this discussion?
      >
      >Do you confirm that N. Orloff is anaxios for the reasons suggested?
      >Can you tell us what Vl Antony's family thinks about his dignity? Do
      >you know what Vl Antony's wife thinks about this?
      >
      >In God,
      >
      >Vladimir Kozyreff


      I am quite amazed by this reply.

      When I asked the question:

      "If the rumor is true, I wonder what his wife (of some forty years), Pavla,
      thinks about this. . ."

      then Vladimir calls it "innuendo."

      Yet he concludes his own post with virtually the same question:

      "Do you know what Vl Antony's wife thinks about this?"

      If the first is innuendo, why isn't the second?

      Vladimir Kozyreff should know that it is a absolute fact that Fr. Nikita
      Orloff, after the repose of Archbishop Antony, having received permission
      to remove Archbishop Antony's personal belongings from his apartments under
      the church, drove up with a **tractor trailer**, parked it on the church
      property, and proceeded to remove not only Archbishop Antony's personal
      effects, but **all** of the contents of the parish and diocesan office,
      including all the parish and diocesan archives, the metrical books, the
      Deeds to the property, the original Certificate of Incorporation, all the
      parish Metrical Records, all financial statements, the Building plans for
      the church, the soils reports, the building and zoning permits, all
      historical documents and photographs, all minutes of parish meetings, --
      basically all the documents, including official corporate documents of the
      parish.

      He also took icons from the Church, Church books and liturgical items,
      vestments (which were bought and paid for by the parish and its
      Sisterhood--not by Archbishop Antony personally, and so belong to the
      parish), and even the rug runners out of the church (he later returned these).

      He also took several irreplaceable pre-revolutionary books that belonged to
      me personally, which I had loaned to Archbishop Antony, and refused to
      return them to me when asked.

      All this was seen by the parishioners of our church, so there is no doubt
      about the truth of the matter.

      So there is no doubt that he stole all of this from our church, so the
      accusations about theft are completely true.

      Vladimir also asks:

      "Can you tell us what Vl Antony's family thinks about his dignity?"

      The answer is yes.

      When the question arose of Metropolitan Vitaly wishing to ordain Deacon
      Nikita Orloff to the priesthood, all of his brothers and sisters wrote a
      Petition to Metropolitan Vitaly informing him that they were all aware of
      serious canonical impediments to this ordination and begging the
      Metropolitan not to do this.

      The brother, Eugene Orloff, is Secretary of the Parish Council and a Senior
      Engineer at Boeing, where he has worked for over 40 years. His wife,
      Natalie, is the Head of our Sisterhood.

      The eldest sister is Nun Euphemia, who prior to her tonsure was a Professor
      of Foreign Languages for many years.

      The next sister is Dr. Natalie Saltykoff, the Head of Pathology at St.
      John's Hospital, and also a member of our Parish Council and Admimistrator
      of our Parish's Fund for the Needy.

      The next sister is Olga Orloff, who has two Master's Degrees in Nursing and
      Hospital Administration, and works as a hospital administrator.

      The last sister is Matushka Helen Skvor, wife of Protodeacon George Skvor,
      who has been a teacher for over thirty years.

      All of them are professional people, well respected, and (apart from Sister
      Euphemia) are active members of our parish.

      They, of course, know their brother from infancy.

      When all five brothers and sisters write an Appeal asking that their
      brother not be ordained for signbificant canonical reasons--this must taken
      very seriously.

      More serious, even, is the fact that the long time Father Confessor of
      Nikita Orloff, Protopriest Theodore Martynenko, who had served at the Los
      Angeles Cathedral from 1965 to 1982, also wrote a formal letter to
      Metropolitan Vitaly, informing him that significant canonical impediments
      existed to the ordination of Nikita Orloff.

      Even further, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
      of Russia, after having viewed a videotape of Nikita Orloff screaming and
      yelling and slandering the senior bishops of the Synod using the worst
      words, called Deacon Nikita Orloff to present himself before the Synod, and
      after examining him in person and receiving an apology, passed a Resolution
      declaring that in no way could Deacon Nikita Orloff ever be ordained to the
      priesthood.

      His ordination to the priesthood, therefore, took place in violation of a
      Synodal Resolution, a Petition against such ordination by his Spiritual
      Father, and a Petition against such an ordination signed by all five of his
      brothers and sisters.

      Such a situation is unheard of in the Church.



      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father Alexander, bless. You say that I am inconsistent because I say that you made an innuendo, but asked the same question as you did. I did not make
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 8, 2004
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        Dear Father Alexander, bless.

        You say that I am inconsistent because I say that you made an
        innuendo, but asked the same question as you did.

        I did not make understand myself properly. In fact, I just repeated
        your question, as an invitation for you to give an answer, because I
        think you know it.

        The innuendo is when the accuser asks the question without answering
        it and suggests that Vl Antony was made bishop in spite of being
        married. It is not an innuendo when I insist on getting an answer,
        which I think, is honourable. I understand Vl Antony's and his
        matushka have both mutually agreed to pronounce monastic vows, so
        there is no canonical obstacle, contrarily to the case of MP's Alexii
        II, for instance.

        Regarding the disappearance of Archbishop Antony's personal
        belongings, I read another description of the facts, which was
        submitted to this forum, and which appeared for a short time but was
        then quickly taken back for being a "proxy". It also speaks about
        Father Nikita Orloff being summoned to present himself before the
        Synod and apologising for slandering clergy.

        I am told that Father Nikita Orloff did apologise, did confess and
        was pardoned. Is this not true?

        Do we Christians not consider that a sin must be punished only once,
        and that confessed sins can be pardoned, that is to say erased? Do we
        not believe that

        Luke 15:7
        there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents
        than over ninetynine righteous persons who do not need to repent?

        I remember having a discussion with Father Stefan Pavlenko who
        reported being abused by one of Vl Ambrose's opponents in Brussels.
        We agreed with Father Stefan that this incident should not be
        mentioned any longer, because that man prostrated himself before
        Father Stefan and asked forgiveness, which Father Stefan granted.
        They then embraced one another.

        Maybe some of those that we call sinners will receive us in heaven if
        we get there. You rightly insisted, about the MP, that we should not
        be too heavy about clergy's personal sins. Do I understand you
        correctly?

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
        <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
        > At 12:13 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
        > >Dear Father Stefan, bless.
        > >
        > >With regards to Father Nikita's chirotonia, we have read Father
        > >Alexander's innuendo about N. Orloff's wife thoughts after 40 years
        > >of marriage, and N. Zaharov insults (quickly followed by apologies
        > >for publishing them, not for authoring them).
        > >
        > >Would you not think that it would be time to put some Christian
        > >order in this discussion?
        > >
        > >Do you confirm that N. Orloff is anaxios for the reasons suggested?
        > >Can you tell us what Vl Antony's family thinks about his dignity?
        Do
        > >you know what Vl Antony's wife thinks about this?
        > >
        > >In God,
        > >
        > >Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        >
        > I am quite amazed by this reply.
        >
        > When I asked the question:
        >
        > "If the rumor is true, I wonder what his wife (of some forty
        years), Pavla,
        > thinks about this. . ."
        >
        > then Vladimir calls it "innuendo."
        >
        > Yet he concludes his own post with virtually the same question:
        >
        > "Do you know what Vl Antony's wife thinks about this?"
        >
        > If the first is innuendo, why isn't the second?
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff should know that it is a absolute fact that Fr.
        Nikita
        > Orloff, after the repose of Archbishop Antony, having received
        permission
        > to remove Archbishop Antony's personal belongings from his
        apartments under
        > the church, drove up with a **tractor trailer**, parked it on the
        church
        > property, and proceeded to remove not only Archbishop Antony's
        personal
        > effects, but **all** of the contents of the parish and diocesan
        office,
        > including all the parish and diocesan archives, the metrical books,
        the
        > Deeds to the property, the original Certificate of Incorporation,
        all the
        > parish Metrical Records, all financial statements, the Building
        plans for
        > the church, the soils reports, the building and zoning permits, all
        > historical documents and photographs, all minutes of parish
        meetings, --
        > basically all the documents, including official corporate documents
        of the
        > parish.
        >
        > He also took icons from the Church, Church books and liturgical
        items,
        > vestments (which were bought and paid for by the parish and its
        > Sisterhood--not by Archbishop Antony personally, and so belong to
        the
        > parish), and even the rug runners out of the church (he later
        returned these).
        >
        > He also took several irreplaceable pre-revolutionary books that
        belonged to
        > me personally, which I had loaned to Archbishop Antony, and refused
        to
        > return them to me when asked.
        >
        > All this was seen by the parishioners of our church, so there is no
        doubt
        > about the truth of the matter.
        >
        > So there is no doubt that he stole all of this from our church, so
        the
        > accusations about theft are completely true.
        >
        > Vladimir also asks:
        >
        > "Can you tell us what Vl Antony's family thinks about his dignity?"
        >
        > The answer is yes.
        >
        > When the question arose of Metropolitan Vitaly wishing to ordain
        Deacon
        > Nikita Orloff to the priesthood, all of his brothers and sisters
        wrote a
        > Petition to Metropolitan Vitaly informing him that they were all
        aware of
        > serious canonical impediments to this ordination and begging the
        > Metropolitan not to do this.
        >
        > The brother, Eugene Orloff, is Secretary of the Parish Council and
        a Senior
        > Engineer at Boeing, where he has worked for over 40 years. His
        wife,
        > Natalie, is the Head of our Sisterhood.
        >
        > The eldest sister is Nun Euphemia, who prior to her tonsure was a
        Professor
        > of Foreign Languages for many years.
        >
        > The next sister is Dr. Natalie Saltykoff, the Head of Pathology at
        St.
        > John's Hospital, and also a member of our Parish Council and
        Admimistrator
        > of our Parish's Fund for the Needy.
        >
        > The next sister is Olga Orloff, who has two Master's Degrees in
        Nursing and
        > Hospital Administration, and works as a hospital administrator.
        >
        > The last sister is Matushka Helen Skvor, wife of Protodeacon George
        Skvor,
        > who has been a teacher for over thirty years.
        >
        > All of them are professional people, well respected, and (apart
        from Sister
        > Euphemia) are active members of our parish.
        >
        > They, of course, know their brother from infancy.
        >
        > When all five brothers and sisters write an Appeal asking that
        their
        > brother not be ordained for signbificant canonical reasons--this
        must taken
        > very seriously.
        >
        > More serious, even, is the fact that the long time Father Confessor
        of
        > Nikita Orloff, Protopriest Theodore Martynenko, who had served at
        the Los
        > Angeles Cathedral from 1965 to 1982, also wrote a formal letter to
        > Metropolitan Vitaly, informing him that significant canonical
        impediments
        > existed to the ordination of Nikita Orloff.
        >
        > Even further, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
        Outside
        > of Russia, after having viewed a videotape of Nikita Orloff
        screaming and
        > yelling and slandering the senior bishops of the Synod using the
        worst
        > words, called Deacon Nikita Orloff to present himself before the
        Synod, and
        > after examining him in person and receiving an apology, passed a
        Resolution
        > declaring that in no way could Deacon Nikita Orloff ever be
        ordained to the
        > priesthood.
        >
        > His ordination to the priesthood, therefore, took place in
        violation of a
        > Synodal Resolution, a Petition against such ordination by his
        Spiritual
        > Father, and a Petition against such an ordination signed by all
        five of his
        > brothers and sisters.
        >
        > Such a situation is unheard of in the Church.
        >
        >
        >
        > With love in Christ,
        >
        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • for4z@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/8/2004 5:07:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, irene.goossens@cec.eu.int writes: Why doesn t the ROCOR (L) leave The ROCE alone and clean up
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 8, 2004
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          In a message dated 9/8/2004 5:07:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          irene.goossens@... writes:
          Why doesn't the ROCOR (L) leave The ROCE alone and
          clean up their own mess instead of justifying it, while allow our
          Saviour to be the Judge of this awful division?



          There are members of our Russian Church Outside Russia, who are considering
          leaving our Church and joining the group formed around Metropolitan Vitaly. If
          I know of spiritually dangerous people, I feel it my Christian duty to make
          this information known.

          Earlier, somebody showed concern for "our children" reading certain postings
          on this list. I was a teenager when I was forced to witness Nikita Orloff
          screaming and choking his brother at our parish meeting (immediately following
          Liturgy and Holy Communion), and one of Nikita's sympathizer's attempt to punch
          my frail 85 year old grandfather, (Bishop Kyrill stepped in and took the punch
          instead). These events left a very deep impression on me as a youth. I
          don't remember John Chaplain being in our parish at that time. If he were, he
          would not be defending the undefensible.

          In my opinion, business of a new Bishop of Gadarene has nothing to do with
          Christianity.

          -Nick Zaharov


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          ... (John Chaplain s post entitled Newly Consecrated Bishop Antony Slandered by Protopriest follows. Irina Pahlen s post is an excellent example of how some
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 13, 2004
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            Irina Pahlen wrote:

            >Dear List,
            >
            >I think that in due honesty, the following mail below should be
            >published on this list. It is an answer to Father Alexander's and
            >Nicholas Zakharov accusations. This will allow to have a more
            >objective and clear view of the matter.
            >
            >In Christ
            >
            >Irina pahlen

            (John Chaplain's post entitled "Newly Consecrated Bishop Antony Slandered
            by Protopriest" follows.

            Irina Pahlen's post is an excellent example of how some place trust in
            people who have no real knowledge of the actual circumstances.

            Irina should be made aware of the fact that John Chaplain is not a member
            of Holy Transfiguration Cathedral and does not live in Los Angeles. He
            lives in Fresno, California, which is some 300 kilometers away. For his
            ability to speak accurately about things that occurred at the LA Cathedral,
            he might as well be in Belgium.

            On the other hand, I am the Rector of Holy Transfiguration Cathedral, and
            have served there as a priest for the past 22 years. This is also my home
            parish, where I grew up, where I served in the altar, where I attended the
            Russian Parochial School, where I was tonsured Reader, where I was married,
            where my son was baptized.

            Nicholas Zaharov has been at Holy Transfiguration Cathedral all his life,
            as has his father, who was in Russian School together with me.

            So--who is more qualified to speak authoritatively about events at Holy
            Transfiguration Cathedral?

            John Chaplain, who was never anywhere near when the events described took
            place?

            Or those who were here.

            A couple of points in rebuttal to John Chaplain's response:

            1. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote in part, that Fr. Nikita, after the
            repose of A/B Antony+ of Los Angeles, had received permission to
            remove Vladyka's personal belongings from his apartment under the
            cathedral. He said Fr. Nikita parked a tractor trailer on church
            property and also removed all of the contents of the parish and
            diocesan office.

            MY (John Chaplain's) response: Fr. Nikita, had a freight container placed
            on the
            parking lot of the cathedral and on several occasions, sorted and
            loaded the contents of Vladyka A/B Antony"s apartment into the
            container. There were many water damaged items that were discarded.
            This was the result of a water pipe that had broken and caused
            flooding, during an earthquake as I understand it.

            Fr. Alexander now responds: 1. It was not a container--it was Nikita
            Orloff's tractor trailer--the same one he used for transporting goods for
            Russia.

            2. The parish and diocesan offices were **in** the apartment used by
            Archbishop Antony. So all of the parish documents and records **were**
            taken by Nikita Orloff. The idea that they were all water damaged is
            ludicrous. The apartment and offices are on the same level as our parish
            hall under the church, where we have a fellowship luncheon every Sunday
            after Liturgy. Never has there been a pipe burst flood of that level. Now,
            there have been minor floods, such as when the dishwasher hose blew, but
            none of this was serious and was easily mopped up.

            But more importantly, the apartments and offices of Archbishop Antony had
            many bookcases, desks, standing cabinets with shelves, and four-drawer
            filing cabinets, where parish documents were kept. I would like to have
            John Chaplain explain how documents in desks and filing cabinets would have
            been destroyed or damaged, unless the whole place was under water, which,
            having been there on almost a daily basis for the past twenty-two years I
            can categorically state did not happen.

            I have a videotape of the offices and the apartment of Archbishop Antony,
            which was taken under my supervision soon after his repose, that shows the
            desks and filing cabinets--with no water damage.

            3. During the last two or three years of his life, before he became too ill
            and was taken to live with Dr. Kurtzner (when he was not in the hospital),
            Archbishop Antony did **not** live under the Church in his apartments
            there. After two years of living like a homeless person in his van behind
            the Church, Archbishop Antony moved into the vacant front house of the then
            Church Warden, Ivan Sorokin on Robinson Street, several miles form the
            Church. He had three rooms there and a kitchen.

            After Archbishop Antony's repose, Bishop Kyrill, then temporary
            administrator of the Diocese, and I went to the house on Robinson and
            inspected the contents of Archbishop Antony's apartments there. All three
            rooms were full of papers and documents, including many files, most of
            which concerned parish matters. We found one of the older Metrical Books
            (up to 1951), which we took. None of the other papers were ever returned to
            the parish. And--there is no excuse of a flood there at all.

            John Chaplain wrote:

            On one occasion while working at Vladyka Antony's + apartment, Fr.
            Nikita was physically punched several times while getting beat up in
            the church hall and was literally airborne, when thrown out by two
            soviet thugs and there mother thug. The worst part of this was that
            Fr. Nikita was wearing his riassa and pectoral cross. The two Soviet
            men, after being interrogated by the police (Fr. Nikita did not file
            charges) proceeded to go into the altar to serve vigil with Fr.
            Alexander.


            Fr. Alexander's new comments.

            Here again one needs to look at the facts based on evidence (not just the
            word of Fr. Nikita or his son or daughter.

            The facts are that Fr. Nikita staged a confrontation in the Church Hall,
            when he found out that at the direction of Bishop Kyrill, the locks to
            Archbishop Antony's apartment were being changed.

            This happened to be on December 7, 1996, a Saturday when we had a "general
            cleaning" of the Church and the altar--which we do a couple of times a
            year, inviting all of the parishioners to come with their brooms, mops, and
            cleaning utensils to do a thorough cleaning of the Church.

            There were some 20-30 people there in all, so there were plenty of unbiased
            witnesses to what occurred, including almost all of our Parish Council and
            many from the Parish Sisterhood. A young man in his twenties, named Misha,
            who had been serving in the altar for several years, was helping to clean
            in the altar.

            An confrontation ensued between Fr. Nikita's son, Sergei, and Misha's
            mother, who was already a grandmother. Sergei began beating the woman over
            the head with a video camera, swinging it by its straps. Fr. Nikita, in
            robe and cross, joined in, threw the elderly woman to the ground, and began
            to pummel her. This was all in front of some ten witnesses, who came out of
            the church when they heard the sounds of the altercation. One of the
            parishioners ran toward the altar and told Misha that his mother was being
            beaten up. Misha ran out of the Church, knocked Fr. Nikita off his mother,
            and, yes, roughed him up--although, I don't know what others would do if
            they saw their elderly mother being beaten up.

            I had been at the Church earlier, but was not present myself during the
            altercation, which took place in front of our church in the parking lot. I
            was paged on my beeper, and rushed back to the Church, arriving some
            fifteen minutes afterwards.

            A police car was in the parking lot and two policemen were interrogating
            the participants and the witnesses.

            The police wanted to take Fr. Nikita and Sergei into custody for beating
            the woman, although they were tryng to say that the woman had been beating
            them, which the police weren't buying at all, since they could see a pretty
            severly beaten elderly woman, who must be all of 4 feet 10, while Nikita
            and Sergei looked to be in pretty good physical shape.

            Finally, I was able to persuade the police not to arrest anyone so as not
            to cause a scandal for the Church, and they left.

            The woman was taken to the hospital, and found to have multiple contusions
            on her face and upper arms, consistent with being "defensive" wounds, when
            a person is trying to fend off an attack by protecting her head with her arms.

            Now--as to the veracity and credibility of the two stories.

            John Chaplain's has his information from Nikita Orloff.

            On the other side is a police report, a hospital report, polaroid pictures
            of the severely bruised woman taken the day of the attack, and five sworn
            written affidavits by witnesses, who state that they saw Nikita Orloff
            throw the elderly woman to the ground and pummel her.

            In fact, I have witness statements from **nine** witnesses.

            So, whom are you to believe?

            In fact, I will even make a challenge to John Chaplain.

            I challenge him to come to Los Angeles and speak with the witnesses himself.

            He is free to talk to the woman who was beaten, the woman's husband, the
            woman's son, as well.

            I'd love to see you, John, accuse me again of "slander" in the face of at
            least nine corroborating witnesses, the police and hospital reports,
            photographs of the injuries, and the victim herself.

            Sorry, John, in the United States, it's not slander if it's true.

            For some reason, in all of your attempts to explain the situation
            attempting to show that Fr. Nikita was the victim of a vicious attack by a
            Soviet "thug" (now you've changed the story to "thugs"), you are still
            incapable of explaining how the woman ended up seriously beaten.

            There were only four participants in the altercation: Fr. Nikita and his
            son, Sergei, on one side--and the elderly woman and her son, Misha, who
            came to her defense, on the other.

            So--John, who beat up the woman?

            I'll give you a hint: it wasn't her son. . .

            So--a final caution to listmembers: be careful in assessing statements or
            versions of events that are produced by someone who was not there, when
            there are plenty of people who **were** there and saw what took place.

            And they sae, no question about it, Fr. Nikita, throwing an elderly woman
            to the ground and pummeling her.















            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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