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Matthew 23:23 {was: Land of ...}

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  • podnoss
    ... You have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. ... Russia. These are the things you should have done without
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
      > In a message dated 8/5/04 10:27:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
      > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
      >
      >
      > Give us justice?

      You have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and
      mercy and faithfulness.

      > I prefer the approach noted in the Prayer for the Salvation of
      Russia.

      These are the things you should have done without neglecting the
      others.


      Have a safe weekend everyone,

      J.W.
    • podnoss
      ... Vladimir Putin is a dangerous authoritarian, handpicked by a cabal of Kremlin insiders, and levered into power by a breathtakingly ruthless plot. That
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
        > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

        "Vladimir Putin is a dangerous authoritarian, handpicked by a cabal
        of Kremlin insiders, and levered into power by a breathtakingly
        ruthless plot. That plot allegedly began last summer with the
        apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities. The theory goes that
        Russian security forces were responsible for the terrorist campaign,
        which was immediately blamed on Chechen rebels. The violence enabled
        Mr. Putin — newly appointed as Prime Minister — to launch a military
        invasion of Chechnya, an action which turned him, virtually
        overnight, into Russia's most popular politician."

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/669247.stm

        "Putin's tenure as FSB director was marred last year by allegations
        from within the agency that it was involved in extortion and murder
        rackets. Putin personally took charge of the investigation of the
        November 1998 assassination of democratic opposition lawmaker

        Galina Starovoitova

        in her St. Petersburg apartment building, but allowed the probe to
        fizzle. Starovoitova, a prominent human-rights worker and anti-
        corruption crusader, was investigating the contract killing of a St.
        Petersburg privatization chief at the time of her death. She had
        frequently directed her ire at the FSB. She even introduced
        legislation in the Duma, or parliament, that

        would have banned former KGB officers who engaged in political
        repression from holding any public office, a law that would have
        kept the likes of Putin and Cherkesov out of government.

        Putin handed the Starovoitova case
        - considered post-Soviet Russia's highest profile political
        assassination - to

        former dissident-hunter Cherkesov.
        That action, human-rights leaders argue, ensured that the killers
        would never be found. Sergei Alexeyev, a local leader of
        Starovoitova's Democratic Russia Party, told reporters at the
        time, "If Cherkesov's been brought into the case, you can consider
        it buried." And so it appears to be.

        A month after the Starovoitova murder, Putin showed his nostalgia
        for the golden days of the Soviet police state. He gave a televised
        address on Dec. 20, 1998, to celebrate the 81st anniversary of the
        founding of the Bolshevik Cheka secret police, praising the Cheka
        but saying nothing about its systematic executions of political
        opponents. He then hosted a gala at KGB headquarters to honor the
        Cheka."

        http://www.security-policy.org/papers/2000/00-F3.html
      • VJB
        This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates). The murder of Starovotiova obviously has nothing to do with Putin:
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 7, 2004
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          This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates). The murder of Starovotiova obviously has nothing to do with Putin:
          http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?s=11&mid=4785499

          There is a "conspiracy theory" that Putin and the FSB were involved in the Moscow bombings (5 years ago, not last summer). It is promoted by Berezovsky and it really does not hold water. Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's criminal #1", and, ironically, he was granted political asylum in the UK.

          vb


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: podnoss
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:05 AM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance [was: the Dark Side of the Moon]


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
          > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

          "Vladimir Putin is a dangerous authoritarian, handpicked by a cabal
          of Kremlin insiders, and levered into power by a breathtakingly
          ruthless plot. That plot allegedly began last summer with the
          apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities. The theory goes that
          Russian security forces were responsible for the terrorist campaign,
          which was immediately blamed on Chechen rebels. The violence enabled
          Mr. Putin - newly appointed as Prime Minister - to launch a military
          invasion of Chechnya, an action which turned him, virtually
          overnight, into Russia's most popular politician."

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/669247.stm

          "Putin's tenure as FSB director was marred last year by allegations
          from within the agency that it was involved in extortion and murder
          rackets. Putin personally took charge of the investigation of the
          November 1998 assassination of democratic opposition lawmaker

          Galina Starovoitova

          in her St. Petersburg apartment building, but allowed the probe to
          fizzle. Starovoitova, a prominent human-rights worker and anti-
          corruption crusader, was investigating the contract killing of a St.
          Petersburg privatization chief at the time of her death. She had
          frequently directed her ire at the FSB. She even introduced
          legislation in the Duma, or parliament, that

          would have banned former KGB officers who engaged in political
          repression from holding any public office, a law that would have
          kept the likes of Putin and Cherkesov out of government.

          Putin handed the Starovoitova case
          - considered post-Soviet Russia's highest profile political
          assassination - to

          former dissident-hunter Cherkesov.
          That action, human-rights leaders argue, ensured that the killers
          would never be found. Sergei Alexeyev, a local leader of
          Starovoitova's Democratic Russia Party, told reporters at the
          time, "If Cherkesov's been brought into the case, you can consider
          it buried." And so it appears to be.

          A month after the Starovoitova murder, Putin showed his nostalgia
          for the golden days of the Soviet police state. He gave a televised
          address on Dec. 20, 1998, to celebrate the 81st anniversary of the
          founding of the Bolshevik Cheka secret police, praising the Cheka
          but saying nothing about its systematic executions of political
          opponents. He then hosted a gala at KGB headquarters to honor the
          Cheka."

          http://www.security-policy.org/papers/2000/00-F3.html






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • podnoss
          ... August 7, 2004(AP) GERMANY: PROBATION IN BERLIN WALL KILLINGS A court found two former East German officials guilty of failing to stop the killing of
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 7, 2004
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            "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
            > This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates).
            > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

            August 7, 2004(AP)
            GERMANY: PROBATION IN BERLIN WALL KILLINGS A court found two former
            East German officials guilty of failing to stop the killing of people
            trying to cross the Berlin Wall and sentenced them to probation. The
            trial was likely to be the last involving the wall, 15 years after it
            was torn down. About 1,000 people were killed trying to flee East
            Germany after the wall was put up in 1961. Prosecutors chose three
            shootings for the case against the two officials, Hans-Joachim Böhme,
            74, and Siegfried Lorenz, 73, former members of the Politburo,
            including the last, in February 1989. Prosecutors had asked for
            probation, while the defense lawyers had sought acquittals. Hundreds
            of former East German border guards and officials have been convicted
            for shootings along the border. Most received suspended sentences,
            though a few former leaders were sent to prison.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------
            Now do you honestly believe after the way Putin hadled the Kursk
            disaster & killed Russian hostages with a deadly gas that whatever
            moral scruples he has would prevent him from assasinating political
            opponents? One fact you cannot dispute: the Russian government used
            poison gas against its own citizens.

            The President of Russia is incapable of resolving the horrible social
            conditions at home & just as the American President is employing the
            threat of "terrorism" to legitimise himself.

            "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:

            > Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's
            > criminal #1", and, ironically, he was granted political asylum in
            > the UK.


            Sergei Kovalev, Russia's first national ombudsman, was telling a
            British judge to mistrust Moscow's promises that a leading Chechen
            politician would get a fair trial if extradited to Russia.

            "In my country defendants are often subject to beatings and torture,
            usually in the first stages of investigation. If it happens often
            with Russian citizens, it almost always happens with Chechens," said
            the crumpled academic figure, who spent years in Soviet jails. The
            judiciary, he went on, was still far from independent and three
            prominent Chechens had died mysteriously in Russian custody, along
            with hundreds of ordinary civilians.

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,979736,00.html


            "It is the moment of truth for Russia," an angry Peter Klebnikov
            said. "The country could well have the capacity to build skyscrapers,
            to solve international conflicts or even to win tennis tournaments.
            But for as long as resolving disputes or removing someone who stands
            in the way by murder is considered normal, the country is sick."

            Pavel Klebnikov was the 15th journalist to be killed in Russia since
            2000 when Vladimir Putin became president, and nobody had been
            brought to justice for any murders.

            http://www.russianlondon.com/uknews/news/21536/
          • ourlittlecity@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/7/2004 6:05:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, venceslav@softhome.net writes: Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine Russia s criminal #1 ,
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 7, 2004
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              In a message dated 8/7/2004 6:05:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              venceslav@... writes:
              Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's criminal #1", and,
              ironically, he was granted political asylum in the UK.
              How is that Ironic?

              rdr. john dunn
              OLJS, Cumming, GA


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • VJB
              I find it ironic that after the criminal was prosecuted the country that called him a criminal granted him political asylum. vb ... From:
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 8, 2004
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                I find it ironic that after the criminal was prosecuted the country that called him "a criminal" granted him political asylum.

                vb
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: ourlittlecity@...
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:36 PM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance [was: the Dark Side of the Moon]


                In a message dated 8/7/2004 6:05:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                venceslav@... writes:
                Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's criminal #1", and,
                ironically, he was granted political asylum in the UK.
                How is that Ironic?

                rdr. john dunn
                OLJS, Cumming, GA


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • VJB
                We are getting into contemporary politics (not the crimes of old Soviet officials as suggested in the original post). Kursk as well as Nord-Ost were national
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 8, 2004
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                  We are getting into contemporary politics (not the crimes of old Soviet officials as suggested in the original post). Kursk as well as Nord-Ost were national tragedies. By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the given circumstances.

                  Sergei Kovalev is a well known human rights activist, and unfortunately his statements are accurate. Russian legal system is unable to protect the rights of Russia's citizens (Chechens or not).

                  vb
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: podnoss
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 7:58 PM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] the Dark Side of the Moon


                  "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                  > This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates).
                  > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

                  August 7, 2004(AP)
                  GERMANY: PROBATION IN BERLIN WALL KILLINGS A court found two former
                  East German officials guilty of failing to stop the killing of people
                  trying to cross the Berlin Wall and sentenced them to probation. The
                  trial was likely to be the last involving the wall, 15 years after it
                  was torn down. About 1,000 people were killed trying to flee East
                  Germany after the wall was put up in 1961. Prosecutors chose three
                  shootings for the case against the two officials, Hans-Joachim Böhme,
                  74, and Siegfried Lorenz, 73, former members of the Politburo,
                  including the last, in February 1989. Prosecutors had asked for
                  probation, while the defense lawyers had sought acquittals. Hundreds
                  of former East German border guards and officials have been convicted
                  for shootings along the border. Most received suspended sentences,
                  though a few former leaders were sent to prison.
                  -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  Now do you honestly believe after the way Putin hadled the Kursk
                  disaster & killed Russian hostages with a deadly gas that whatever
                  moral scruples he has would prevent him from assasinating political
                  opponents? One fact you cannot dispute: the Russian government used
                  poison gas against its own citizens.

                  The President of Russia is incapable of resolving the horrible social
                  conditions at home & just as the American President is employing the
                  threat of "terrorism" to legitimise himself.

                  "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:

                  > Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's
                  > criminal #1", and, ironically, he was granted political asylum in
                  > the UK.


                  Sergei Kovalev, Russia's first national ombudsman, was telling a
                  British judge to mistrust Moscow's promises that a leading Chechen
                  politician would get a fair trial if extradited to Russia.

                  "In my country defendants are often subject to beatings and torture,
                  usually in the first stages of investigation. If it happens often
                  with Russian citizens, it almost always happens with Chechens," said
                  the crumpled academic figure, who spent years in Soviet jails. The
                  judiciary, he went on, was still far from independent and three
                  prominent Chechens had died mysteriously in Russian custody, along
                  with hundreds of ordinary civilians.

                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,979736,00.html


                  "It is the moment of truth for Russia," an angry Peter Klebnikov
                  said. "The country could well have the capacity to build skyscrapers,
                  to solve international conflicts or even to win tennis tournaments.
                  But for as long as resolving disputes or removing someone who stands
                  in the way by murder is considered normal, the country is sick."

                  Pavel Klebnikov was the 15th journalist to be killed in Russia since
                  2000 when Vladimir Putin became president, and nobody had been
                  brought to justice for any murders.

                  http://www.russianlondon.com/uknews/news/21536/






                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod




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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • podnoss
                  ... Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun helicopters,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                    > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                    >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                    >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                    >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                    > given circumstances.


                    Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                    brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                    helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                    and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                    All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                    channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                    has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                    into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                    The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                    Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                    himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                    Cheers,
                    J.W.
                  • Gene T
                    There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia, according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest russians are jews. Moskva davno ne tretii
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                      There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia, according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest "russians" are jews.

                      Moskva davno ne tretii Rim
                      Ona vtoroi Erusalim

                      Happy conselebrating :-)



                      podnoss <podnoss@...> wrote:
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                      > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                      >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                      >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                      >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                      > given circumstances.


                      Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                      brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                      helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                      and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                      All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                      channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                      has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                      into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                      The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                      Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                      himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                      Cheers,
                      J.W.




                      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod




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                    • VJB
                      Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. Yes, I agree with you: the nature of the Russo-Chechen conflict and the Israel-Palestine war is very similar. In
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                        Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. Yes, I agree with you: the nature of the Russo-Chechen conflict and the Israel-Palestine war is very similar. In each case one nation is trying to protect its integrity and the other fights for its independence. Both Russia and Israel do use airforces, helicopters, troops, tanks, artilllery, and both Chechens and Palestinians employ terrorist attacks on civilians. There have been numerous abuses on the part of both the Russians and the Israelis. There are differences as well: Chechens are a part of the Russian society involved in politics, business and culture. The vast majority of them live outside the Chechen Republic and do not support the idea of Chechen independence. The recently assassinated pro-Russian president of the Chechen Republic, Akhmad Kadyrov was the Supreme Imam of the Chechens. And the last, the UN recognized the statehood of Palestine while Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation.

                        I do not know what your source of information is. There are plenty of freely operating reliable anti-Putin sources in Russia. Just search the web. No need to invent anything. Putin promoted his colleagues from the Sobchak administration in St. Petersburg (all civilians and not KGB or Army officers as you suggest). If you ever go to Russia you will find out that Putin is supported by the Orthodox of the official MP as well as the non-official Orthodox jurisdictions including the Valentine's ROAC, ex-ROCOR clergy who decided to leave us, and the ROCOR clergy who remain with us.

                        viatcheslav





                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                        > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                        >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                        >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                        >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                        > given circumstances.


                        Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                        brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                        helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                        and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                        All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                        channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                        has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                        into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                        The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                        Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                        himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                        Cheers,
                        J.W.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Russell Martin
                        This is one of the worst examples of vile hatred and bigotry ever to appear on this group. Shame on those who would turn an honest difference in opinion on
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                          This is one of the worst examples of vile hatred and bigotry ever to
                          appear on this group. Shame on those who would turn an honest
                          difference in opinion on ecclesiological matters into this kind of
                          irrelevant, irrational and inflamatory attack.

                          Roman Martin

                          Russell E. Martin
                          Assoc. Professor of History
                          Westminster College
                          New Wilmington, PA 16172-0001
                          phone: 724.946.6254
                          fax: 724.946.7256
                          webpage: http://www.westminster.edu/staff/martinre/
                          other email: remartin@...
                          >>> gene703@... 08/10/04 10:34 AM >>>
                          There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia,
                          according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest "russians" are jews.


                          Moskva davno ne tretii Rim
                          Ona vtoroi Erusalim

                          Happy conselebrating :-)



                          podnoss <podnoss@...> wrote:
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                          > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                          >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                          >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                          >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                          > given circumstances.


                          Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                          brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                          helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                          and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                          All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                          channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                          has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                          into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                          The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                          Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                          himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                          Cheers,
                          J.W.




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                        • David M. James
                          I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Martin. This kind of hate-mongering is abhorrent in any context, let alone in an Orthodox Christian discussion group. David
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Martin. This kind of hate-mongering
                            is abhorrent in any context, let alone in an Orthodox Christian
                            discussion group.

                            David James

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Russell Martin"
                            <MartinRE@w...> wrote:
                            > This is one of the worst examples of vile hatred and bigotry ever
                            to
                            > appear on this group. Shame on those who would turn an honest
                            > difference in opinion on ecclesiological matters into this kind of
                            > irrelevant, irrational and inflamatory attack.
                            >
                            > Roman Martin
                            >
                            > Russell E. Martin
                            > Assoc. Professor of History
                            > Westminster College
                            > New Wilmington, PA 16172-0001
                            > phone: 724.946.6254
                            > fax: 724.946.7256
                            > webpage: http://www.westminster.edu/staff/martinre/
                            > other email: remartin@p...
                            > >>> gene703@y... 08/10/04 10:34 AM >>>
                            > There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia,
                            > according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest "russians" are
                            jews.
                            >
                            >
                            > Moskva davno ne tretii Rim
                            > Ona vtoroi Erusalim
                            >
                            > Happy conselebrating :-)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > podnoss <podnoss@y...> wrote:
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...>
                            wrote:
                            > > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                            > >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                            > >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                            > >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under
                            the
                            > > given circumstances.
                            >
                            >
                            > Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging
                            a
                            > brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce,
                            gun
                            > helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests,
                            torture
                            > and the execution of their enemies' men & women.
                            >
                            > All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                            > channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                            > has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                            > into his administration predominantly KGB people and army
                            generals.
                            > The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no
                            Central
                            > Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir
                            Putin,
                            > himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > J.W.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • podnoss
                            ... Not true, but I agree, no need to discuss this realm any further. ... In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current order is neither democratic
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 11, 2004
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                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                              > Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. No need to invent
                              > anything.

                              > (all civilians and not KGB or Army officers as you suggest)

                              Not true, but I agree, no need to discuss this realm any further.


                              > If you ever go to Russia you will find out that Putin is supported
                              > by the Orthodox of the official MP as well as the non-official
                              > Orthodox jurisdictions including the Valentine's ROAC, ex-ROCOR
                              > clergy who decided to leave us, and the ROCOR clergy who remain
                              > with us.

                              > viatcheslav

                              In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current order is
                              neither democratic nor capitalist but feudal. The Russian Church in
                              its many guises is, by its very nature, a buttress of the status quo.

                              J.W.
                            • VJB
                              I did not say let us not discuss further. I said let us not invent anything. Let me repeat: Putin promoted to Moscow his colleagues from the Sobchak
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                I did not say let us not discuss further. I said let us not invent anything. Let me repeat: Putin promoted to Moscow his colleagues from the Sobchak administration in St. Petersburg not form KGB or Army.

                                You wrote: "In Russia a theory has come into vogue..." Whose theory is it? Could you identify the source please.

                                viatcheslav
                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                > Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. No need to invent
                                > anything.

                                > (all civilians and not KGB or Army officers as you suggest)

                                Not true, but I agree, no need to discuss this realm any further.


                                > If you ever go to Russia you will find out that Putin is supported
                                > by the Orthodox of the official MP as well as the non-official
                                > Orthodox jurisdictions including the Valentine's ROAC, ex-ROCOR
                                > clergy who decided to leave us, and the ROCOR clergy who remain
                                > with us.

                                > viatcheslav

                                In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current order is
                                neither democratic nor capitalist but feudal. The Russian Church in
                                its many guises is, by its very nature, a buttress of the status quo.

                                J.W.




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • podnoss
                                ... order is neither democratic, etc. Whose theory is it? Could you identify the source please. ... The current political, moral and economic crisis in what
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                  > I did not say...I said ....Let me repeat: Putin, [no KGB]
                                  > You wrote: "In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current
                                  order is neither democratic, etc." Whose theory is it? Could you
                                  identify the source please.
                                  >
                                  > viatcheslav

                                  The current political, moral and economic crisis in what was once
                                  Russia is deep enough. You do not seem troubled by any of these
                                  things, so what is there to discuss?

                                  A country falling apart?

                                  The gradual narrowing of possible futures?

                                  Unemployment?

                                  The grinding fear of violence?

                                  The absence of truth & reconciliation?

                                  A people who do not believe, fundamentally, that the legal or
                                  democratic processes can help them?

                                  Which Bolsheviks benefitted after 1991?

                                  Which didn't?

                                  Good Night
                                  J.W.
                                • VJB
                                  Dear J. W. (podnoss), I did not think this is the place to discuss contemporary Russian politics unless it is directly related to the Russian Orthodox Church.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 14, 2004
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                                    Dear J. W. (podnoss),

                                    I did not think this is the place to discuss contemporary Russian politics unless it is directly related to the Russian Orthodox Church. The original post suggested that Russia should have trials over Communists. From your posts it appears that you are in fact unaware of the current politics in Russia. Much of what you say is your own guesswork, and you have never quoted any reliable source to confirm any your statements.

                                    Russia is not falling apart. Where do you get this idea from? There was a transitional period in 1991-1996 when things were rather unstable. I hope you do not mean the USSR. It is not falling apart. It fell apart in 1991.

                                    "Gradual narrowing of possible futures" - what does that mean?

                                    Unemployment? - Yes, there is unemployment. It is a natural consequence of the economic crisis of 1991 and the years Communist rule. However, Russia is recovering from it.

                                    Absence of truth and reconciliation...? - That could be said of any society. Reconciliation with what? With the past? With the present? With the Diaspora?

                                    Russia is still in a transitional stage from totalitarian society with planned economy to a free society with market economy. The term generally used by economists for such societies in "frontier capitalism." New laws do not appear overnight; a country that lived for centuries under totalitarian rulers cannot get rid of its past in one day. There are very alarming symptoms in the Putin administration but overall the progress is obvious.

                                    ...Which Bolsheviks benefited from in 1991?... - Let us redefine the term Bolshevik. There is no political group in Russia that would use this name or follow the ideology of Bolsheviks of 1917 (i.e. Proletarian Dictatorship and bypassing Capitalism). What do you mean?

                                    viatcheslav



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: podnoss
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 10:35 PM
                                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] You are one of "us" [was: Rogue]


                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                    > I did not say...I said ....Let me repeat: Putin, [no KGB]
                                    > You wrote: "In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current
                                    order is neither democratic, etc." Whose theory is it? Could you
                                    identify the source please.
                                    >
                                    > viatcheslav

                                    The current political, moral and economic crisis in what was once
                                    Russia is deep enough. You do not seem troubled by any of these
                                    things, so what is there to discuss?

                                    A country falling apart?

                                    The gradual narrowing of possible futures?

                                    Unemployment?

                                    The grinding fear of violence?

                                    The absence of truth & reconciliation?

                                    A people who do not believe, fundamentally, that the legal or
                                    democratic processes can help them?

                                    Which Bolsheviks benefitted after 1991?

                                    Which didn't?

                                    Good Night
                                    J.W.




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • podnoss
                                    ... There are very alarming symptoms in the Putin administration but overall the progress is obvious. ... It would be interesting to know, however, when did
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
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                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                      > Russia is not falling apart.
                                      There are very alarming symptoms in the Putin administration but
                                      overall the progress is obvious.
                                      > viatcheslav

                                      It would be interesting to know, however, when did this progress
                                      under Putin become obvious?

                                      J.W.
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