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Land of Repentance

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  • frvboldewskul@aol.com
    The following, Land of Repentance, is in Russian, perhaps one of the list s regular translators could translate it into English. See:
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 5, 2004
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      The following,"Land of Repentance," is in Russian, perhaps one of the list's
      regular translators could translate it into English.

      See: http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=102233

      Priest Victor Boldewskul


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • podnoss
      Indeed the author of said article is describing a land of historical paradox. Thus, Lenin s embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a monumental sarcophagus on
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 5, 2004
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        Indeed the author of said article is describing a land of historical
        paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
        monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
        former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
        crimes.
        Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
        convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
        Russia.
      • byakimov@csc.com.au
        That what saddens many of us in the DIASPORA . If the post soviet MP was truly the Church of Russia. It would have, at least, voiced a strong & persistent
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 5, 2004
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          That what saddens many of us in the DIASPORA . If the post soviet
          MP was truly the Church of Russia. It would have, at least, voiced a
          strong & persistent call for the lenin abomination to be removed
          & soviet henchmen brought to justice. A Tribunal/Commission is not so hard
          to set up.
          Alas it was an obedient tool of the soviets & it seems to be now in the
          same obedient time warp.






          "podnoss" <podnoss@...> on 06/08/2004 10:07:34 AM

          Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          cc:
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance


          Indeed the author of said article is describing a land of historical
          paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
          monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
          former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
          crimes.
          Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
          convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
          Russia.






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        • frvboldewskul@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/5/04 10:27:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Give us justice? I prefer the approach noted in the Prayer for the Salvation of Russia. Listen
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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            In a message dated 8/5/04 10:27:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            byakimov@... writes:

            > A Tribunal/Commission is not so hard
            > to set up.
            >

            Give us justice?

            I prefer the approach noted in the Prayer for the Salvation of Russia. Listen
            to it carefully this Sunday.

            In Christ,
            Priest Victor Boldewskul


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • VJB
            Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted? The top officials of the Communist Party involved in the Coup of 1991 were all convicted but
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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              Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted? The top officials of the Communist Party involved in the Coup of 1991 were all convicted but later granted amnesty because Russians believe we have had enough political prisoners in our history. I hope you do not mean 'mock trials' over dead people like Lenin, Stalin or Beria. The Church in Russia as well as many politicians on numerous occasions "voiced a call" to bury Lenin's body (or what is left of it). There are many opinions about it though and the question itself is very political.

              viatcheslav


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: byakimov@...
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 12:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance



              That what saddens many of us in the DIASPORA . If the post soviet
              MP was truly the Church of Russia. It would have, at least, voiced a
              strong & persistent call for the lenin abomination to be removed
              & soviet henchmen brought to justice. A Tribunal/Commission is not so hard
              to set up.
              Alas it was an obedient tool of the soviets & it seems to be now in the
              same obedient time warp.






              "podnoss" <podnoss@...> on 06/08/2004 10:07:34 AM

              Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              cc:
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance


              Indeed the author of said article is describing a land of historical
              paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
              monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
              former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
              crimes.
              Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
              convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
              Russia.






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • for4z@aol.com
              In a message dated 8/6/2004 11:08:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, venceslav@softhome.net writes: The Church in Russia as well as many politicians on numerous
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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                In a message dated 8/6/2004 11:08:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                venceslav@... writes:
                The Church in Russia as well as many politicians on numerous occasions
                "voiced a call" to bury Lenin's body (or what is left of it).


                It believe it should not be buried. His venereal disease-ridden body should
                be thrown out into the sewer.....


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • a-geos
                ... Actually, it should be treated in the same way as was that of the False Dimitrii-: ... drawn and quartered; burned; and the ashes fired from a cannon in
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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                  At 11:47 AM 8/6/04, for4z@... wrote:

                  >In a message dated 8/6/2004 11:08:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                  >venceslav@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  >>The Church in Russia as well as many politicians on numerous occasions
                  >>"voiced a call" to bury Lenin's body (or what is left of it).
                  >
                  >I believe it should not be buried. His venereal disease-ridden body should
                  >be thrown out into the sewer.....

                  Actually, it should be treated in the same way as was that of the False
                  Dimitrii-:

                  ... drawn and quartered; burned; and the ashes fired from a cannon in the
                  direction of Germany, just as the False Dimitrii's were fired in the
                  direction of Poland!!!

                  -- GeoS
                • VJB
                  It is preceisely because everybody (vse kome ne len) has an individual opinion what to do with it, nobody knows what to do. Debates about it started as early
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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                    It is preceisely because everybody (vse kome ne len) has an individual opinion what to do with it, nobody knows what to do. Debates about it started as early as 1985. I suggest to look for a movie called Pokaianie/Repentance (1987) that remotely deals with the topic. A preview is available at

                    http://www.rbcmp3.com/store/product.asp?dept%5Fid=1439&sku=32861

                    another interesting fim (documentary) is at
                    http://www.rbcmp3.com/store/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3015&sku=15647

                    vb


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: for4z@...
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 2:47 PM
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance


                    In a message dated 8/6/2004 11:08:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                    venceslav@... writes:
                    The Church in Russia as well as many politicians on numerous occasions
                    "voiced a call" to bury Lenin's body (or what is left of it).


                    It believe it should not be buried. His venereal disease-ridden body should
                    be thrown out into the sewer.....


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • podnoss
                    ... You have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. ... Russia. These are the things you should have done without
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 8/5/04 10:27:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
                      >
                      >
                      > Give us justice?

                      You have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and
                      mercy and faithfulness.

                      > I prefer the approach noted in the Prayer for the Salvation of
                      Russia.

                      These are the things you should have done without neglecting the
                      others.


                      Have a safe weekend everyone,

                      J.W.
                    • podnoss
                      ... Vladimir Putin is a dangerous authoritarian, handpicked by a cabal of Kremlin insiders, and levered into power by a breathtakingly ruthless plot. That
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 6, 2004
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                        > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

                        "Vladimir Putin is a dangerous authoritarian, handpicked by a cabal
                        of Kremlin insiders, and levered into power by a breathtakingly
                        ruthless plot. That plot allegedly began last summer with the
                        apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities. The theory goes that
                        Russian security forces were responsible for the terrorist campaign,
                        which was immediately blamed on Chechen rebels. The violence enabled
                        Mr. Putin — newly appointed as Prime Minister — to launch a military
                        invasion of Chechnya, an action which turned him, virtually
                        overnight, into Russia's most popular politician."

                        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/669247.stm

                        "Putin's tenure as FSB director was marred last year by allegations
                        from within the agency that it was involved in extortion and murder
                        rackets. Putin personally took charge of the investigation of the
                        November 1998 assassination of democratic opposition lawmaker

                        Galina Starovoitova

                        in her St. Petersburg apartment building, but allowed the probe to
                        fizzle. Starovoitova, a prominent human-rights worker and anti-
                        corruption crusader, was investigating the contract killing of a St.
                        Petersburg privatization chief at the time of her death. She had
                        frequently directed her ire at the FSB. She even introduced
                        legislation in the Duma, or parliament, that

                        would have banned former KGB officers who engaged in political
                        repression from holding any public office, a law that would have
                        kept the likes of Putin and Cherkesov out of government.

                        Putin handed the Starovoitova case
                        - considered post-Soviet Russia's highest profile political
                        assassination - to

                        former dissident-hunter Cherkesov.
                        That action, human-rights leaders argue, ensured that the killers
                        would never be found. Sergei Alexeyev, a local leader of
                        Starovoitova's Democratic Russia Party, told reporters at the
                        time, "If Cherkesov's been brought into the case, you can consider
                        it buried." And so it appears to be.

                        A month after the Starovoitova murder, Putin showed his nostalgia
                        for the golden days of the Soviet police state. He gave a televised
                        address on Dec. 20, 1998, to celebrate the 81st anniversary of the
                        founding of the Bolshevik Cheka secret police, praising the Cheka
                        but saying nothing about its systematic executions of political
                        opponents. He then hosted a gala at KGB headquarters to honor the
                        Cheka."

                        http://www.security-policy.org/papers/2000/00-F3.html
                      • VJB
                        This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates). The murder of Starovotiova obviously has nothing to do with Putin:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 7, 2004
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                          This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates). The murder of Starovotiova obviously has nothing to do with Putin:
                          http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?s=11&mid=4785499

                          There is a "conspiracy theory" that Putin and the FSB were involved in the Moscow bombings (5 years ago, not last summer). It is promoted by Berezovsky and it really does not hold water. Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's criminal #1", and, ironically, he was granted political asylum in the UK.

                          vb


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: podnoss
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:05 AM
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance [was: the Dark Side of the Moon]


                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                          > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

                          "Vladimir Putin is a dangerous authoritarian, handpicked by a cabal
                          of Kremlin insiders, and levered into power by a breathtakingly
                          ruthless plot. That plot allegedly began last summer with the
                          apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities. The theory goes that
                          Russian security forces were responsible for the terrorist campaign,
                          which was immediately blamed on Chechen rebels. The violence enabled
                          Mr. Putin - newly appointed as Prime Minister - to launch a military
                          invasion of Chechnya, an action which turned him, virtually
                          overnight, into Russia's most popular politician."

                          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/669247.stm

                          "Putin's tenure as FSB director was marred last year by allegations
                          from within the agency that it was involved in extortion and murder
                          rackets. Putin personally took charge of the investigation of the
                          November 1998 assassination of democratic opposition lawmaker

                          Galina Starovoitova

                          in her St. Petersburg apartment building, but allowed the probe to
                          fizzle. Starovoitova, a prominent human-rights worker and anti-
                          corruption crusader, was investigating the contract killing of a St.
                          Petersburg privatization chief at the time of her death. She had
                          frequently directed her ire at the FSB. She even introduced
                          legislation in the Duma, or parliament, that

                          would have banned former KGB officers who engaged in political
                          repression from holding any public office, a law that would have
                          kept the likes of Putin and Cherkesov out of government.

                          Putin handed the Starovoitova case
                          - considered post-Soviet Russia's highest profile political
                          assassination - to

                          former dissident-hunter Cherkesov.
                          That action, human-rights leaders argue, ensured that the killers
                          would never be found. Sergei Alexeyev, a local leader of
                          Starovoitova's Democratic Russia Party, told reporters at the
                          time, "If Cherkesov's been brought into the case, you can consider
                          it buried." And so it appears to be.

                          A month after the Starovoitova murder, Putin showed his nostalgia
                          for the golden days of the Soviet police state. He gave a televised
                          address on Dec. 20, 1998, to celebrate the 81st anniversary of the
                          founding of the Bolshevik Cheka secret police, praising the Cheka
                          but saying nothing about its systematic executions of political
                          opponents. He then hosted a gala at KGB headquarters to honor the
                          Cheka."

                          http://www.security-policy.org/papers/2000/00-F3.html






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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • podnoss
                          ... August 7, 2004(AP) GERMANY: PROBATION IN BERLIN WALL KILLINGS A court found two former East German officials guilty of failing to stop the killing of
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 7, 2004
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                            "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                            > This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates).
                            > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

                            August 7, 2004(AP)
                            GERMANY: PROBATION IN BERLIN WALL KILLINGS A court found two former
                            East German officials guilty of failing to stop the killing of people
                            trying to cross the Berlin Wall and sentenced them to probation. The
                            trial was likely to be the last involving the wall, 15 years after it
                            was torn down. About 1,000 people were killed trying to flee East
                            Germany after the wall was put up in 1961. Prosecutors chose three
                            shootings for the case against the two officials, Hans-Joachim Böhme,
                            74, and Siegfried Lorenz, 73, former members of the Politburo,
                            including the last, in February 1989. Prosecutors had asked for
                            probation, while the defense lawyers had sought acquittals. Hundreds
                            of former East German border guards and officials have been convicted
                            for shootings along the border. Most received suspended sentences,
                            though a few former leaders were sent to prison.
                            -----------------------------------------------------------------
                            Now do you honestly believe after the way Putin hadled the Kursk
                            disaster & killed Russian hostages with a deadly gas that whatever
                            moral scruples he has would prevent him from assasinating political
                            opponents? One fact you cannot dispute: the Russian government used
                            poison gas against its own citizens.

                            The President of Russia is incapable of resolving the horrible social
                            conditions at home & just as the American President is employing the
                            threat of "terrorism" to legitimise himself.

                            "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:

                            > Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's
                            > criminal #1", and, ironically, he was granted political asylum in
                            > the UK.


                            Sergei Kovalev, Russia's first national ombudsman, was telling a
                            British judge to mistrust Moscow's promises that a leading Chechen
                            politician would get a fair trial if extradited to Russia.

                            "In my country defendants are often subject to beatings and torture,
                            usually in the first stages of investigation. If it happens often
                            with Russian citizens, it almost always happens with Chechens," said
                            the crumpled academic figure, who spent years in Soviet jails. The
                            judiciary, he went on, was still far from independent and three
                            prominent Chechens had died mysteriously in Russian custody, along
                            with hundreds of ordinary civilians.

                            http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,979736,00.html


                            "It is the moment of truth for Russia," an angry Peter Klebnikov
                            said. "The country could well have the capacity to build skyscrapers,
                            to solve international conflicts or even to win tennis tournaments.
                            But for as long as resolving disputes or removing someone who stands
                            in the way by murder is considered normal, the country is sick."

                            Pavel Klebnikov was the 15th journalist to be killed in Russia since
                            2000 when Vladimir Putin became president, and nobody had been
                            brought to justice for any murders.

                            http://www.russianlondon.com/uknews/news/21536/
                          • ourlittlecity@aol.com
                            In a message dated 8/7/2004 6:05:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, venceslav@softhome.net writes: Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine Russia s criminal #1 ,
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 7, 2004
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                              In a message dated 8/7/2004 6:05:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                              venceslav@... writes:
                              Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's criminal #1", and,
                              ironically, he was granted political asylum in the UK.
                              How is that Ironic?

                              rdr. john dunn
                              OLJS, Cumming, GA


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • VJB
                              I find it ironic that after the criminal was prosecuted the country that called him a criminal granted him political asylum. vb ... From:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 8, 2004
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                                I find it ironic that after the criminal was prosecuted the country that called him "a criminal" granted him political asylum.

                                vb
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: ourlittlecity@...
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:36 PM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Land of Repentance [was: the Dark Side of the Moon]


                                In a message dated 8/7/2004 6:05:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                venceslav@... writes:
                                Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's criminal #1", and,
                                ironically, he was granted political asylum in the UK.
                                How is that Ironic?

                                rdr. john dunn
                                OLJS, Cumming, GA


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • VJB
                                We are getting into contemporary politics (not the crimes of old Soviet officials as suggested in the original post). Kursk as well as Nord-Ost were national
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 8, 2004
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                                  We are getting into contemporary politics (not the crimes of old Soviet officials as suggested in the original post). Kursk as well as Nord-Ost were national tragedies. By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the given circumstances.

                                  Sergei Kovalev is a well known human rights activist, and unfortunately his statements are accurate. Russian legal system is unable to protect the rights of Russia's citizens (Chechens or not).

                                  vb
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: podnoss
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 7:58 PM
                                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] the Dark Side of the Moon


                                  "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                  > This article is completely out of date (did you look at the dates).
                                  > Just curious who exactly (names) would you like to see prosecuted?

                                  August 7, 2004(AP)
                                  GERMANY: PROBATION IN BERLIN WALL KILLINGS A court found two former
                                  East German officials guilty of failing to stop the killing of people
                                  trying to cross the Berlin Wall and sentenced them to probation. The
                                  trial was likely to be the last involving the wall, 15 years after it
                                  was torn down. About 1,000 people were killed trying to flee East
                                  Germany after the wall was put up in 1961. Prosecutors chose three
                                  shootings for the case against the two officials, Hans-Joachim Böhme,
                                  74, and Siegfried Lorenz, 73, former members of the Politburo,
                                  including the last, in February 1989. Prosecutors had asked for
                                  probation, while the defense lawyers had sought acquittals. Hundreds
                                  of former East German border guards and officials have been convicted
                                  for shootings along the border. Most received suspended sentences,
                                  though a few former leaders were sent to prison.
                                  -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Now do you honestly believe after the way Putin hadled the Kursk
                                  disaster & killed Russian hostages with a deadly gas that whatever
                                  moral scruples he has would prevent him from assasinating political
                                  opponents? One fact you cannot dispute: the Russian government used
                                  poison gas against its own citizens.

                                  The President of Russia is incapable of resolving the horrible social
                                  conditions at home & just as the American President is employing the
                                  threat of "terrorism" to legitimise himself.

                                  "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:

                                  > Berezovsky was named by Forbes magazine "Russia's
                                  > criminal #1", and, ironically, he was granted political asylum in
                                  > the UK.


                                  Sergei Kovalev, Russia's first national ombudsman, was telling a
                                  British judge to mistrust Moscow's promises that a leading Chechen
                                  politician would get a fair trial if extradited to Russia.

                                  "In my country defendants are often subject to beatings and torture,
                                  usually in the first stages of investigation. If it happens often
                                  with Russian citizens, it almost always happens with Chechens," said
                                  the crumpled academic figure, who spent years in Soviet jails. The
                                  judiciary, he went on, was still far from independent and three
                                  prominent Chechens had died mysteriously in Russian custody, along
                                  with hundreds of ordinary civilians.

                                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,979736,00.html


                                  "It is the moment of truth for Russia," an angry Peter Klebnikov
                                  said. "The country could well have the capacity to build skyscrapers,
                                  to solve international conflicts or even to win tennis tournaments.
                                  But for as long as resolving disputes or removing someone who stands
                                  in the way by murder is considered normal, the country is sick."

                                  Pavel Klebnikov was the 15th journalist to be killed in Russia since
                                  2000 when Vladimir Putin became president, and nobody had been
                                  brought to justice for any murders.

                                  http://www.russianlondon.com/uknews/news/21536/






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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • podnoss
                                  ... Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun helicopters,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                    > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                                    >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                                    >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                                    >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                                    > given circumstances.


                                    Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                                    brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                                    helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                                    and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                                    All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                                    channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                                    has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                                    into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                                    The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                                    Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                                    himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                                    Cheers,
                                    J.W.
                                  • Gene T
                                    There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia, according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest russians are jews. Moskva davno ne tretii
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                                      There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia, according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest "russians" are jews.

                                      Moskva davno ne tretii Rim
                                      Ona vtoroi Erusalim

                                      Happy conselebrating :-)



                                      podnoss <podnoss@...> wrote:
                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                      > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                                      >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                                      >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                                      >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                                      > given circumstances.


                                      Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                                      brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                                      helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                                      and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                                      All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                                      channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                                      has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                                      into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                                      The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                                      Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                                      himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                                      Cheers,
                                      J.W.




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                                    • VJB
                                      Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. Yes, I agree with you: the nature of the Russo-Chechen conflict and the Israel-Palestine war is very similar. In
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                                        Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. Yes, I agree with you: the nature of the Russo-Chechen conflict and the Israel-Palestine war is very similar. In each case one nation is trying to protect its integrity and the other fights for its independence. Both Russia and Israel do use airforces, helicopters, troops, tanks, artilllery, and both Chechens and Palestinians employ terrorist attacks on civilians. There have been numerous abuses on the part of both the Russians and the Israelis. There are differences as well: Chechens are a part of the Russian society involved in politics, business and culture. The vast majority of them live outside the Chechen Republic and do not support the idea of Chechen independence. The recently assassinated pro-Russian president of the Chechen Republic, Akhmad Kadyrov was the Supreme Imam of the Chechens. And the last, the UN recognized the statehood of Palestine while Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation.

                                        I do not know what your source of information is. There are plenty of freely operating reliable anti-Putin sources in Russia. Just search the web. No need to invent anything. Putin promoted his colleagues from the Sobchak administration in St. Petersburg (all civilians and not KGB or Army officers as you suggest). If you ever go to Russia you will find out that Putin is supported by the Orthodox of the official MP as well as the non-official Orthodox jurisdictions including the Valentine's ROAC, ex-ROCOR clergy who decided to leave us, and the ROCOR clergy who remain with us.

                                        viatcheslav





                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                        > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                                        >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                                        >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                                        >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                                        > given circumstances.


                                        Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                                        brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                                        helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                                        and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                                        All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                                        channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                                        has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                                        into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                                        The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                                        Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                                        himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                                        Cheers,
                                        J.W.




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Russell Martin
                                        This is one of the worst examples of vile hatred and bigotry ever to appear on this group. Shame on those who would turn an honest difference in opinion on
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                                          This is one of the worst examples of vile hatred and bigotry ever to
                                          appear on this group. Shame on those who would turn an honest
                                          difference in opinion on ecclesiological matters into this kind of
                                          irrelevant, irrational and inflamatory attack.

                                          Roman Martin

                                          Russell E. Martin
                                          Assoc. Professor of History
                                          Westminster College
                                          New Wilmington, PA 16172-0001
                                          phone: 724.946.6254
                                          fax: 724.946.7256
                                          webpage: http://www.westminster.edu/staff/martinre/
                                          other email: remartin@...
                                          >>> gene703@... 08/10/04 10:34 AM >>>
                                          There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia,
                                          according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest "russians" are jews.


                                          Moskva davno ne tretii Rim
                                          Ona vtoroi Erusalim

                                          Happy conselebrating :-)



                                          podnoss <podnoss@...> wrote:
                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                          > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                                          >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                                          >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                                          >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under the
                                          > given circumstances.


                                          Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging a
                                          brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce, gun
                                          helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests, torture
                                          and the execution of their enemies' men & women.

                                          All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                                          channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                                          has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                                          into his administration predominantly KGB people and army generals.
                                          The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no Central
                                          Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir Putin,
                                          himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.

                                          Cheers,
                                          J.W.




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                                        • David M. James
                                          I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Martin. This kind of hate-mongering is abhorrent in any context, let alone in an Orthodox Christian discussion group. David
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 10, 2004
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                                            I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Martin. This kind of hate-mongering
                                            is abhorrent in any context, let alone in an Orthodox Christian
                                            discussion group.

                                            David James

                                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Russell Martin"
                                            <MartinRE@w...> wrote:
                                            > This is one of the worst examples of vile hatred and bigotry ever
                                            to
                                            > appear on this group. Shame on those who would turn an honest
                                            > difference in opinion on ecclesiological matters into this kind of
                                            > irrelevant, irrational and inflamatory attack.
                                            >
                                            > Roman Martin
                                            >
                                            > Russell E. Martin
                                            > Assoc. Professor of History
                                            > Westminster College
                                            > New Wilmington, PA 16172-0001
                                            > phone: 724.946.6254
                                            > fax: 724.946.7256
                                            > webpage: http://www.westminster.edu/staff/martinre/
                                            > other email: remartin@p...
                                            > >>> gene703@y... 08/10/04 10:34 AM >>>
                                            > There is another striking similarity between Israel and Russia,
                                            > according to Forbes magazine 6 out of the 7 richest "russians" are
                                            jews.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Moskva davno ne tretii Rim
                                            > Ona vtoroi Erusalim
                                            >
                                            > Happy conselebrating :-)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > podnoss <podnoss@y...> wrote:
                                            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > By the way, concerning Nord-Ost, I have my own opinion about it
                                            > >too, however it is interesting that the Israeli anti-terrorist
                                            > >specialists all said that from their experience of dealing with
                                            > >similar situations what Russians did was the best solution under
                                            the
                                            > > given circumstances.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Putin & the nation of Israel have much in common. They are waging
                                            a
                                            > brutal war against another peole. Both are using their airforce,
                                            gun
                                            > helicopters, artillery, concentration camps, illegal arrests,
                                            torture
                                            > and the execution of their enemies' men & women.
                                            >
                                            > All this happened while Putin liquidated independent television
                                            > channels and most of the opposition newspapers. Now the government
                                            > has a total freedom for propaganda and indoctrination. He has put
                                            > into his administration predominantly KGB people and army
                                            generals.
                                            > The influence of the KGB is growing steadily, but there is no
                                            Central
                                            > Committee of the CPSU to control it. Instead there is Vladimir
                                            Putin,
                                            > himself a KGB lieutenant-colonel.
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            > J.W.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
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                                            >
                                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                            Service.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > __________________________________________________
                                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                                            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • podnoss
                                            ... Not true, but I agree, no need to discuss this realm any further. ... In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current order is neither democratic
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 11, 2004
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                                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                              > Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. No need to invent
                                              > anything.

                                              > (all civilians and not KGB or Army officers as you suggest)

                                              Not true, but I agree, no need to discuss this realm any further.


                                              > If you ever go to Russia you will find out that Putin is supported
                                              > by the Orthodox of the official MP as well as the non-official
                                              > Orthodox jurisdictions including the Valentine's ROAC, ex-ROCOR
                                              > clergy who decided to leave us, and the ROCOR clergy who remain
                                              > with us.

                                              > viatcheslav

                                              In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current order is
                                              neither democratic nor capitalist but feudal. The Russian Church in
                                              its many guises is, by its very nature, a buttress of the status quo.

                                              J.W.
                                            • VJB
                                              I did not say let us not discuss further. I said let us not invent anything. Let me repeat: Putin promoted to Moscow his colleagues from the Sobchak
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                                I did not say let us not discuss further. I said let us not invent anything. Let me repeat: Putin promoted to Moscow his colleagues from the Sobchak administration in St. Petersburg not form KGB or Army.

                                                You wrote: "In Russia a theory has come into vogue..." Whose theory is it? Could you identify the source please.

                                                viatcheslav
                                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                                > Looks like we are discussing modern Politics. No need to invent
                                                > anything.

                                                > (all civilians and not KGB or Army officers as you suggest)

                                                Not true, but I agree, no need to discuss this realm any further.


                                                > If you ever go to Russia you will find out that Putin is supported
                                                > by the Orthodox of the official MP as well as the non-official
                                                > Orthodox jurisdictions including the Valentine's ROAC, ex-ROCOR
                                                > clergy who decided to leave us, and the ROCOR clergy who remain
                                                > with us.

                                                > viatcheslav

                                                In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current order is
                                                neither democratic nor capitalist but feudal. The Russian Church in
                                                its many guises is, by its very nature, a buttress of the status quo.

                                                J.W.




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • podnoss
                                                ... order is neither democratic, etc. Whose theory is it? Could you identify the source please. ... The current political, moral and economic crisis in what
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                                  > I did not say...I said ....Let me repeat: Putin, [no KGB]
                                                  > You wrote: "In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current
                                                  order is neither democratic, etc." Whose theory is it? Could you
                                                  identify the source please.
                                                  >
                                                  > viatcheslav

                                                  The current political, moral and economic crisis in what was once
                                                  Russia is deep enough. You do not seem troubled by any of these
                                                  things, so what is there to discuss?

                                                  A country falling apart?

                                                  The gradual narrowing of possible futures?

                                                  Unemployment?

                                                  The grinding fear of violence?

                                                  The absence of truth & reconciliation?

                                                  A people who do not believe, fundamentally, that the legal or
                                                  democratic processes can help them?

                                                  Which Bolsheviks benefitted after 1991?

                                                  Which didn't?

                                                  Good Night
                                                  J.W.
                                                • VJB
                                                  Dear J. W. (podnoss), I did not think this is the place to discuss contemporary Russian politics unless it is directly related to the Russian Orthodox Church.
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 14, 2004
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                                                    Dear J. W. (podnoss),

                                                    I did not think this is the place to discuss contemporary Russian politics unless it is directly related to the Russian Orthodox Church. The original post suggested that Russia should have trials over Communists. From your posts it appears that you are in fact unaware of the current politics in Russia. Much of what you say is your own guesswork, and you have never quoted any reliable source to confirm any your statements.

                                                    Russia is not falling apart. Where do you get this idea from? There was a transitional period in 1991-1996 when things were rather unstable. I hope you do not mean the USSR. It is not falling apart. It fell apart in 1991.

                                                    "Gradual narrowing of possible futures" - what does that mean?

                                                    Unemployment? - Yes, there is unemployment. It is a natural consequence of the economic crisis of 1991 and the years Communist rule. However, Russia is recovering from it.

                                                    Absence of truth and reconciliation...? - That could be said of any society. Reconciliation with what? With the past? With the present? With the Diaspora?

                                                    Russia is still in a transitional stage from totalitarian society with planned economy to a free society with market economy. The term generally used by economists for such societies in "frontier capitalism." New laws do not appear overnight; a country that lived for centuries under totalitarian rulers cannot get rid of its past in one day. There are very alarming symptoms in the Putin administration but overall the progress is obvious.

                                                    ...Which Bolsheviks benefited from in 1991?... - Let us redefine the term Bolshevik. There is no political group in Russia that would use this name or follow the ideology of Bolsheviks of 1917 (i.e. Proletarian Dictatorship and bypassing Capitalism). What do you mean?

                                                    viatcheslav



                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: podnoss
                                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 10:35 PM
                                                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] You are one of "us" [was: Rogue]


                                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                                    > I did not say...I said ....Let me repeat: Putin, [no KGB]
                                                    > You wrote: "In Russia a theory has come into vogue that the current
                                                    order is neither democratic, etc." Whose theory is it? Could you
                                                    identify the source please.
                                                    >
                                                    > viatcheslav

                                                    The current political, moral and economic crisis in what was once
                                                    Russia is deep enough. You do not seem troubled by any of these
                                                    things, so what is there to discuss?

                                                    A country falling apart?

                                                    The gradual narrowing of possible futures?

                                                    Unemployment?

                                                    The grinding fear of violence?

                                                    The absence of truth & reconciliation?

                                                    A people who do not believe, fundamentally, that the legal or
                                                    democratic processes can help them?

                                                    Which Bolsheviks benefitted after 1991?

                                                    Which didn't?

                                                    Good Night
                                                    J.W.




                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • podnoss
                                                    ... There are very alarming symptoms in the Putin administration but overall the progress is obvious. ... It would be interesting to know, however, when did
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
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                                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "VJB" <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                                      > Russia is not falling apart.
                                                      There are very alarming symptoms in the Putin administration but
                                                      overall the progress is obvious.
                                                      > viatcheslav

                                                      It would be interesting to know, however, when did this progress
                                                      under Putin become obvious?

                                                      J.W.
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