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Re: [orthodox-synod] "Secrecy" versus Glastnost

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  • frvboldewskul@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... And once the Commissions work is completed, and if approved by both
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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      In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
      writes:

      > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
      > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

      And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
      Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

      In Christ,
      Priest Victor Boldewskul

      p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
      Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
      the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
      fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
      technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paul O. BARTLETT
      ... Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that, yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with MP is going to take
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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        On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, michael nikitin wrote:

        > [...] This will speed up the process of union. It's
        > going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
        > concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
        > of us who want union dreamed of.

        Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that,
        yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with
        MP is going to take place, sooner or later. (I would be hard pressed
        to come up with a time, but I suspect within five years.) The main
        question, as I see it, is, What is going to happen? To be honest, I
        doubt that there will be 100% acceptance. Some in ROCOR, both clergy
        and laity alike, will not go along.

        What, then, will they do? Form their own jurisdiction in the
        manner of HOCNA (although of different initial motivation)? I would
        not be surprised if at least a few would try to do so. If so, those in
        the reconciled MP/ROCOR would very probably consider them schismatic.
        (But are there not already some within the MP who consider ROCOR to be
        schismatic as it is?) Some might go to already existing jurisdictions
        if they (i.e., those who might make the move) do not have too big a
        hangup on Russianness, as if Orthodox Christianity is to be equated
        with Russianness. The Greek Old Calendarists come to mind.

        In any case, I seem some rough sledding ahead for at least some
        people who are going to have to make some decisions they find painful.

        --
        Paul Bartlett
        bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
        PGP key info in message headers
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Victor, bless. You write: I made no proposal . This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal, according to the definition of
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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          Dear Father Victor, bless.

          You write: "I made no proposal".

          This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal,
          according to the definition of this word. A proposal is something
          that is put forward for consideration: proposition, submission,
          suggestion. You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
          present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
          it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
          fallacy.

          Then you write that you "take exception to your post suggesting or
          implying that our Synod is acting like the communists".

          If the communists act in secrecy and present the resolution of a
          secret committee as coming from a much wider instance, anybody who
          does a similar thing acts like the communists from this angle. If
          anything suggests that the Synod is acting like the communists, it is
          the facts that make this suggestion, not the reporter of those facts.

          Moreover, in certain leading ROCOR circles, Soviet culture is now
          viewed as something that you can live or unite with. Some priest on
          this forum wrote that the sin should not be pushed out of the Church,
          implying that the Church could live with sergianism in her bosom, and
          that opposing views generate schism.

          You write: "Note that I find this to be an extremely insulting
          comparison to make to a Church whose members and families suffered
          immensely at the hands of the Soviets".

          I am part of that Church; my family gave fighters and officers to the
          White Army and was massacred by the Reds. My father escaped in tragic
          circumstances with God's help, when he was a 14 years old orphan. I
          was born in exile, deprived of the land of my ancestors. In the
          exercise of my profession, I have seen for 15 years the appalling
          devastation caused by communism in Russia. My only consolation has
          been the ROCOR and her stand for the Truth. You may understand what I
          suffer when I see my Church having secret agreements with a Soviet
          structure and ignoring warnings coming from her most loving clergy
          and faithful.

          You write: "Please be more careful in what you write as a "friend of
          the Russian Church Abroad."

          What could be friendlier to the ROCOR than saying: "Let us keep faith
          in ROCOR, she does not need any legitimisation from the MP, because
          she is legitimate, let us be faithful to her traditional path"?

          Please pardon me if I have offended anyone.


          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff



          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
          > In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
          > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
          >
          > > Dear Father Victor, bless.
          > >
          > > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > Bog Blagoslovit,
          > I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post
          suggesting or
          > implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I
          find this
          > to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose
          members and
          > families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be
          more
          > careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church
          Abroad."
          > In Christ,
          > Priest Victor Boldewskul
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • frvboldewskul@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in that post. I was
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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            In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

            > You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
            > present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
            > it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
            > fallacy.
            >
            >

            This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in
            that post. I was pointing out an error in your post suggesting that our current
            commission are rooted in communism. I simply pointed that from a historical
            point of view, this is problematic. Commissions are rooted in the Synodal period.
            I made no comment about whether this is good or bad. I have my own view on
            commissions, and I have not shared them in public. Coming to understand the
            past does not necessarily mean justification or rejection of an event in the
            present.

            In the Synodal period (for better or for worse), commissions were set up to
            investigate incorrupt relics, education/seminary reforrm/ soslovia reform,
            liturgical reform, financial crisis etc...and often few knew what was going on or
            that such commissions exist. Now, one does not have to accept this a a
            favorable model, especially as some noted the advancement of education and
            technology, but it does show that commissions in Church life are rooted in the Synodal
            period (that's 1700 until 1918). Whether the Soviets used them as you note is
            irrelevant for a Church historian.

            In Christ,
            Priest Victor Boldewskul


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • michael nikitin
            This official information is always put out by the MP first on their site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired. Maybe they re
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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              This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
              site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired.

              Maybe they're on the new calendar?

              Michael N

              frvboldewskul@... wrote:
              In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
              writes:

              > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
              > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

              And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
              Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

              In Christ,
              Priest Victor Boldewskul

              p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
              Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
              the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
              fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
              technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... transpired. ... JRS: If by they you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                Michael Nikitin wrote:

                > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                transpired.
                >
                > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                for various church holidays.

                Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • vkozyreff
                Dear Father John, bless. I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                  Dear Father John, bless.

                  I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing
                  and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the beautiful
                  Russian language.

                  This however should not divert us from maintaining our vigilance
                  against unorthodox concepts in particular those by which conciliarity
                  is absent when capital decisions about the Church are being taken.
                  The MP does not enjoy universal regognition, among clergy and
                  faithful, as being even part of the Church. This may not be ignored,
                  even at the "highest level".

                  This, after all, was the subject of this discussion.

                  Orthography relates to the times, orthodoxy relates to eternity. The
                  MP calendar may be officially the old one, but its agenda might be
                  worse than the new calendar. When Michael jokingly mentions the new
                  calendar, he may be closer to the truth than those who check the
                  dates.

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                  > Michael Nikitin wrote:
                  >
                  > > This official information is always put out by the MP first on
                  their
                  > > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                  > transpired.
                  > >
                  > > Maybe they're on the new calendar?
                  >
                  > JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                  > Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates
                  given
                  > for various church holidays.
                  >
                  > Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the
                  middle:
                  > it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point. One can read the MP s website and get current information on what transpired in those meetings that our
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 6, 2004
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                    Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point.

                    One can read the MP's website and get current information on what
                    transpired in those meetings that our ROCOR(L) is afraid to tell us
                    on their website.

                    Michael N


                    Michael Nikitin wrote:

                    > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                    > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                    transpired.
                    >
                    > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                    JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                    Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                    for various church holidays.

                    Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                    it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw



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