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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Commissions in Soviet culture

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  • frvboldewskul@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Bog Blagoslovit, I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
      In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
      vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

      > Dear Father Victor, bless.
      >
      > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
      >
      >

      Bog Blagoslovit,
      I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
      implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I find this
      to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose members and
      families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be more
      careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church Abroad."
      In Christ,
      Priest Victor Boldewskul


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • frvboldewskul@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... And once the Commissions work is completed, and if approved by both
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
        In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
        writes:

        > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
        > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

        And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
        Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

        In Christ,
        Priest Victor Boldewskul

        p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
        Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
        the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
        fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
        technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Paul O. BARTLETT
        ... Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that, yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with MP is going to take
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
          On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, michael nikitin wrote:

          > [...] This will speed up the process of union. It's
          > going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
          > concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
          > of us who want union dreamed of.

          Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that,
          yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with
          MP is going to take place, sooner or later. (I would be hard pressed
          to come up with a time, but I suspect within five years.) The main
          question, as I see it, is, What is going to happen? To be honest, I
          doubt that there will be 100% acceptance. Some in ROCOR, both clergy
          and laity alike, will not go along.

          What, then, will they do? Form their own jurisdiction in the
          manner of HOCNA (although of different initial motivation)? I would
          not be surprised if at least a few would try to do so. If so, those in
          the reconciled MP/ROCOR would very probably consider them schismatic.
          (But are there not already some within the MP who consider ROCOR to be
          schismatic as it is?) Some might go to already existing jurisdictions
          if they (i.e., those who might make the move) do not have too big a
          hangup on Russianness, as if Orthodox Christianity is to be equated
          with Russianness. The Greek Old Calendarists come to mind.

          In any case, I seem some rough sledding ahead for at least some
          people who are going to have to make some decisions they find painful.

          --
          Paul Bartlett
          bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
          PGP key info in message headers
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Father Victor, bless. You write: I made no proposal . This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal, according to the definition of
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
            Dear Father Victor, bless.

            You write: "I made no proposal".

            This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal,
            according to the definition of this word. A proposal is something
            that is put forward for consideration: proposition, submission,
            suggestion. You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
            present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
            it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
            fallacy.

            Then you write that you "take exception to your post suggesting or
            implying that our Synod is acting like the communists".

            If the communists act in secrecy and present the resolution of a
            secret committee as coming from a much wider instance, anybody who
            does a similar thing acts like the communists from this angle. If
            anything suggests that the Synod is acting like the communists, it is
            the facts that make this suggestion, not the reporter of those facts.

            Moreover, in certain leading ROCOR circles, Soviet culture is now
            viewed as something that you can live or unite with. Some priest on
            this forum wrote that the sin should not be pushed out of the Church,
            implying that the Church could live with sergianism in her bosom, and
            that opposing views generate schism.

            You write: "Note that I find this to be an extremely insulting
            comparison to make to a Church whose members and families suffered
            immensely at the hands of the Soviets".

            I am part of that Church; my family gave fighters and officers to the
            White Army and was massacred by the Reds. My father escaped in tragic
            circumstances with God's help, when he was a 14 years old orphan. I
            was born in exile, deprived of the land of my ancestors. In the
            exercise of my profession, I have seen for 15 years the appalling
            devastation caused by communism in Russia. My only consolation has
            been the ROCOR and her stand for the Truth. You may understand what I
            suffer when I see my Church having secret agreements with a Soviet
            structure and ignoring warnings coming from her most loving clergy
            and faithful.

            You write: "Please be more careful in what you write as a "friend of
            the Russian Church Abroad."

            What could be friendlier to the ROCOR than saying: "Let us keep faith
            in ROCOR, she does not need any legitimisation from the MP, because
            she is legitimate, let us be faithful to her traditional path"?

            Please pardon me if I have offended anyone.


            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff



            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
            >
            > > Dear Father Victor, bless.
            > >
            > > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
            > >
            > >
            >
            > Bog Blagoslovit,
            > I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post
            suggesting or
            > implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I
            find this
            > to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose
            members and
            > families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be
            more
            > careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church
            Abroad."
            > In Christ,
            > Priest Victor Boldewskul
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • frvboldewskul@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in that post. I was
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
              In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
              vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

              > You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
              > present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
              > it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
              > fallacy.
              >
              >

              This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in
              that post. I was pointing out an error in your post suggesting that our current
              commission are rooted in communism. I simply pointed that from a historical
              point of view, this is problematic. Commissions are rooted in the Synodal period.
              I made no comment about whether this is good or bad. I have my own view on
              commissions, and I have not shared them in public. Coming to understand the
              past does not necessarily mean justification or rejection of an event in the
              present.

              In the Synodal period (for better or for worse), commissions were set up to
              investigate incorrupt relics, education/seminary reforrm/ soslovia reform,
              liturgical reform, financial crisis etc...and often few knew what was going on or
              that such commissions exist. Now, one does not have to accept this a a
              favorable model, especially as some noted the advancement of education and
              technology, but it does show that commissions in Church life are rooted in the Synodal
              period (that's 1700 until 1918). Whether the Soviets used them as you note is
              irrelevant for a Church historian.

              In Christ,
              Priest Victor Boldewskul


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • michael nikitin
              This official information is always put out by the MP first on their site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired. Maybe they re
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired.

                Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                Michael N

                frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                writes:

                > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                In Christ,
                Priest Victor Boldewskul

                p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


                ---------------------------------
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... transpired. ... JRS: If by they you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                  Michael Nikitin wrote:

                  > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                  > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                  transpired.
                  >
                  > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                  JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                  Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                  for various church holidays.

                  Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                  it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • vkozyreff
                  Dear Father John, bless. I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                    Dear Father John, bless.

                    I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing
                    and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the beautiful
                    Russian language.

                    This however should not divert us from maintaining our vigilance
                    against unorthodox concepts in particular those by which conciliarity
                    is absent when capital decisions about the Church are being taken.
                    The MP does not enjoy universal regognition, among clergy and
                    faithful, as being even part of the Church. This may not be ignored,
                    even at the "highest level".

                    This, after all, was the subject of this discussion.

                    Orthography relates to the times, orthodoxy relates to eternity. The
                    MP calendar may be officially the old one, but its agenda might be
                    worse than the new calendar. When Michael jokingly mentions the new
                    calendar, he may be closer to the truth than those who check the
                    dates.

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                    <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                    > Michael Nikitin wrote:
                    >
                    > > This official information is always put out by the MP first on
                    their
                    > > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                    > transpired.
                    > >
                    > > Maybe they're on the new calendar?
                    >
                    > JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                    > Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates
                    given
                    > for various church holidays.
                    >
                    > Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the
                    middle:
                    > it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".
                    >
                    > In Christ
                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • michael nikitin
                    Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point. One can read the MP s website and get current information on what transpired in those meetings that our
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 6, 2004
                      Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point.

                      One can read the MP's website and get current information on what
                      transpired in those meetings that our ROCOR(L) is afraid to tell us
                      on their website.

                      Michael N


                      Michael Nikitin wrote:

                      > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                      > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                      transpired.
                      >
                      > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                      JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                      Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                      for various church holidays.

                      Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                      it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw



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